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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 16 minutes, 21 seconds
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Quote:
Coincidentiaoppositorum said: I'm down for programs that help people like health care.
Wernher von Braun invented the V-2 rockets that reigned down on London, he also became the head of nasa after the war, we incorporated a Nazi space program, because it was a good program.
(And if we didnt take the Nazi scientists the Russians would have)
The Nazis did have a few good ideas, and those few good ideas have been incorporated into United states culture.
So just because the Nazis wanted universal health care doesn't mean it's a bad idea...
-E. Borodin ..
Just because the Nazis wanted gun control doesn't mean it's a bad idea.
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KauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: The Ecstatic]
#22066180 - 08/09/15 08:47 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Just because the Nazis wanted gun control doesn't mean it's a bad idea.
The US and USSR scrambled like crazy to snatch up as many Nazi scientists as possible at the end of WW2. The Nazis were estimated to be 20-30 years ahead of anyone else in terms of technology in a number of areas ... rockets, jet engines, computer circuits, etc.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 16 minutes, 21 seconds
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22066196 - 08/09/15 08:52 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yeah it was called Operation Paperclip.
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22066264 - 08/09/15 09:12 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yes, be sure to ignore the fact shrub negotiated the us pullout of Iraq and keep trying to give credit to obumble. Good job.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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KauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Stonehenge]
#22066315 - 08/09/15 09:28 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said:
Yes, be sure to ignore the fact shrub negotiated the us pullout of Iraq and keep trying to give credit to obumble. Good job.
W laid out a lot of plans over the course of the Iraq war -- A LOT of plans. He was wrong about nearly everything. He invaded Iraq in May of 2013, at the end of his term, 5 1/2 years later, the US was still in active combat. The civil war in Iraq was still raging when he left office. His "plan" to pull out of Iraq was dependent on conditions on the ground which means we were still at war. If the insurgency would have gained strength, his plan would have been meaningless.
W put a leader (Maliki) into power that became a tool of Tehran and set the stage for a breakup for Iraq. Did he mention that in his "plan" for Iraq? W's plans were all bullshit.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
Edited by KauaiOrca (08/09/15 09:29 AM)
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22066386 - 08/09/15 09:48 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
KauaiOrca said:
Quote:
luvdemshrooms said: Proved wrong? I must have missed it. I did notice you repeatedly making a fool of yourself.
You missed a lot including the fact that I have been the most factually critical of Obama in this entire thread. I laid out nearly 20 specific reasons why he's been ineffective and you resort to silly stuff like calling me by Obama's kid's names ... LOL. While a lot of you (don't think you did it though) can only offer names of the guy like "Obumble" and vague criticism, I actually laid out what he's done wrong, and it's a lot. But, the facts remain:
1. Obama ended the Iraq war 2. Obama ran a brilliant campaign to win the White House
Bush repeatedly argued against a timetable and was extremely critical of anyone that asked for one. He said over and over that facts on the ground would determine the outcome and our strategy and the facts on the ground were that we were in very active combat for a full 2 years after he left office. 2 years is a long time ...
Except history shows Bush negotiated the timetable, that Obama tried to negotiate a longer presence for US troops in Iraq, he was rebuffed and wound up pulling out on the schedule Bush agreed to.
There's nothing you can do or say that will give this one to your guy.
Obama was going to win the day he announced.
Quote:
It was a Bush deal, pure and simple. You'll get over the pain eventually. Not all heroes stand the test of time. Alas, Obama's time ended before it began.
Your hero simply carried out the bidding of a Bush. That's gotta sting. A buffoon leading the way for an even more incompetent buffoon.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22066410 - 08/09/15 09:52 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
KauaiOrca said: You seem determined to argue I'm a Obama kool aid drinker when clearly I'm not, as I've been more critical about Obama in a specific way than you and the other people in this thread COMBINED.
If by 'more critical' you mean 'giving him credit for something negotiated by Bush'... sure. Way to be more critical!!!
I really should become a Shroomery supporter. You provided me with my monies worth of entertainment in this thread alone.
Obama was Bush's bitch on this one.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 16 minutes, 21 seconds
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Stonehenge]
#22066572 - 08/09/15 10:34 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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That's why we invented ISIS.
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KauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#22066769 - 08/09/15 11:30 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:
KauaiOrca said: You seem determined to argue I'm a Obama kool aid drinker when clearly I'm not, as I've been more critical about Obama in a specific way than you and the other people in this thread COMBINED.
If by 'more critical' you mean 'giving him credit for something negotiated by Bush'... sure. Way to be more critical!!!
I really should become a Shroomery supporter. You provided me with my monies worth of entertainment in this thread alone.
Obama was Bush's bitch on this one.
Seriously, your stretch to give Bush credit is gumby-esque. But I get your point and if you want to hang your whole argument on a technicality, go for it. I'll concede your point that Bush negotiated a timetable agreement that was essentially a WAG on his part. BFD. His entire war effort was an abysmal failure and one of the worst foreign policy decisions in US history. If it gives you comfort to find a way to criticize Obama, go for it.
The reality is, W was a horrible failure in Iraq on every level. Obama dealt with the aftermath.
Anyway, enough of this thread for me ... we get each other's point and I get your motivation.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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KauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#22066783 - 08/09/15 11:34 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
luvdemshrooms said:
Obama was going to win the day he announced.
You really are comical. Obama was a virtual unknown the day he announced going up against the full force of the Clinton machine. Hillary got more popular votes in the primary than Obama.
You are typical of the hindsight 20/20 crowd that proclaims they saw everything coming after it happened. Very, very few people predicted an Obama victory the first month he announced. He is one of the best campaigners in history. He took it from Hillary.
Seriously, you crack me up. The comic value of your posts is priceless.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22066893 - 08/09/15 11:57 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
KauaiOrca said:
Quote:
luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:
KauaiOrca said: You seem determined to argue I'm a Obama kool aid drinker when clearly I'm not, as I've been more critical about Obama in a specific way than you and the other people in this thread COMBINED.
If by 'more critical' you mean 'giving him credit for something negotiated by Bush'... sure. Way to be more critical!!!
I really should become a Shroomery supporter. You provided me with my monies worth of entertainment in this thread alone.
Obama was Bush's bitch on this one.
Seriously, your stretch to give Bush credit is gumby-esque.
A 'stretch' being demonstrable historic fact? Really? 
Quote:
But I get your point and if you want to hang your whole argument on a technicality, go for it.
A 'technicality' being demonstrable historic fact? Really?
Quote:
I'll concede your point that Bush negotiated a timetable agreement that was essentially a WAG on his part.
You'll concede to demonstrable historic fact? Really? How manly of you. 
Quote:
BFD.
Despite your pain in having to admit it was the doing of Bush, it was a BFD. It meant Obama could come along and claim credit without having to do anything. Yet... he did. He tried to maintain a sizable presence in Iraq. Some 'peace' President.
Quote:
His entire war effort was an abysmal failure and one of the worst foreign policy decisions in US history.
In hindsight, it was pretty stupid, but based on the intel of the time... not so much. Perhaps were it not, so many from both parties wouldn't have voted for it.
Quote:
If it gives you comfort to find a way to criticize Obama, go for it.
I don't have to find a way. Your guy Obama dished it out on a platter. Well, a platter for those who are aware of the facts.
Quote:
The reality is, W was a horrible failure in Iraq on every level. Obama dealt with the aftermath.
The reality is, Bush made arrangements to end his own mess. Obama merely came along and attempted to take credit for it. Bush was a clown. Obama is simply a bigger one.
Quote:
Anyway, enough of this thread for me ... we get each other's point and I get your motivation.
My motivation is accuracy, whereas yours seems to be legacy building for your guy.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22066898 - 08/09/15 11:59 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
KauaiOrca said:
Quote:
luvdemshrooms said:
Obama was going to win the day he announced.
You really are comical. Obama was a virtual unknown the day he announced going up against the full force of the Clinton machine. Hillary got more popular votes in the primary than Obama.
You are typical of the hindsight 20/20 crowd that proclaims they saw everything coming after it happened. Very, very few people predicted an Obama victory the first month he announced. He is one of the best campaigners in history. He took it from Hillary.
Seriously, you crack me up. The comic value of your posts is priceless.
From the moment his picture flashed on the screen with his announcement, it was a done deal.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Coincidentiaoppositorum
deep psychedelic


Registered: 10/27/14
Posts: 1,965
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22070751 - 08/10/15 07:50 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
KauaiOrca said:
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Coincidentiaoppositorum said: That's my main issue with the democrats is gun control.
The 2nd amendment was not put in the constitution for hunters, it was put there so if soldiers came into your home your would have equal weaponry to defend yourself, and so that if your government became oppressive you could band together and carry out a revolution with equal arms.
If the masses are disarmed, what chance do they have to defend themselves? If your invaded, or your government is taken by fascists, if your masses have no guns, you have no chance of defending yourselves.
This is part of why Hitler implemented gun control, it was easier for the fascists to have their way if the masses were not armed.
-E. Borodin
Our country is very, very different today than in the 1700's. I think gun control is largely a rural vs. urban issue. I've lived in NYC, WDC and LA and in 3 much smaller, rural towns. I live now in a town where 8% have CC permits. It's no big deal. But to think about walking around NYC where hundreds of thousands would be carrying concealed weapons ... not so sure about that.
I've got a couple of guns in my home and believe we all have a right to own guns ... the question becomes should a citizen be able to amass an arsenal of weapons, ammo, etc? And where does it stop? Should a citizen be able to have mortars, artillery, tanks and missiles? Why, why not? What specifically are "arms?" Obviously there are limits but some would suggest there's nothing wrong with private citizens having attack helicopters with sidewinder missiles.
We live at a time when over 50%of all adults in America are taking some kind of daily mood medication (depression, anxiety, pain relief, etc.), alcohol addiction is exploding, vaporizers make it easy to be high virtually all day long and caffeine consumption is at an all time high. We have issues that intersect with the 2nd amendment that have to be considered. The thought of being surrounded by people carrying loaded weapons while being unable to get through their day without mood pills, alcohol and caffeine kinda concerns me.
You said "should our citizens have the right to acquire an arsenal?"
And I respond with "does the government have the right to tell them they can't?"
I believe in true freedom, meaning that as long as your not hurting anybody you should be allowed to do it.
I don't necessarily think it's a rual issue, I live in Denver now, and I'm from east bay california, and I'm still against gun control.
It's not an issue just from the 1700's either, the founding fathers were revolutionaries, had the revolution failed they would have been tried by the king as terrorists and hung. They realized that freedom needs to be defended, in all times.
Say the population is disarmed, if the government wanted to go house to house and round people up to throw them in camps,they would be able to, even registered guns are a Nazi tactic, then they know what house has what guns through registration, so they can take that house knowing the risk.
People always say "that will never happen", but it has happened, that's what happened during world war II, and it seemed all well and good at first, but by the time the people saw the fascists doing horrible things with their government, they had already been disarmed and could not fight back...
I believe in peace and love, I never act violently, but if somebody tries to take my freedom or act violently towards me, I fully believe in self-defense, and unless the population has equal arms to the government, self-defense becomes impossible.
Freedom to be armed is just like freedom of speech,it doesn't matter what year it is, even in modern times we deserve to be able to defend ourselves, just as in modern times we have the right to say what ever we want...
The anti-gun people are going to wish they hadn't made themselves defenseless if the time to defend themselves ever comes...
-E. Borodin
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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If the U.S. military (which is comprised of our brothers and sisters fyi) ever did turn on the American people we would be fucked. They have tanks, bombs, aircraft, superior training, superior leadership.
Bearing arms to overthrow a despot government frankly isn't a valid support of the 2nd amendment. It may have been in the 1700s but it's not the case today.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
#22071272 - 08/10/15 11:01 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Tell that to the Afghani's. Perhaps they'll even listen with a straight face.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 4 hours, 50 minutes
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
#22071313 - 08/10/15 11:17 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
paperbackwriter said: If the U.S. military (which is comprised of our brothers and sisters fyi) ever did turn on the American people we would be fucked. They have tanks, bombs, aircraft, superior training, superior leadership.
Bearing arms to overthrow a despot government frankly isn't a valid support of the 2nd amendment. It may have been in the 1700s but it's not the case today.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_warfare
Tanks, aircraft, and other weapons are meaningless.
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: qman]
#22071386 - 08/10/15 11:44 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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This scenario has been explored by people with way more understanding of it than (I assume) anyone in this thread.
Here's the article.
You can download the pdf of the army scenarios they refer to from a link in the article.
If you just want a general run down instead of reading the analysis yourself here's a forbes article with an outline.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
Edited by paperbackwriter (08/10/15 11:46 AM)
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 4 hours, 50 minutes
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
#22071422 - 08/10/15 11:53 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
paperbackwriter said: This scenario has been explored by people with way more understanding of it than (I assume) anyone in this thread.
Here's the article.
You can download the pdf of the army scenarios they refer to from a link in the article.
If you just want a general run down instead of reading the analysis yourself here's a forbes article with an outline.
Your link-
http://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelpeck/2012/11/15/how-the-u-s-military-would-crush-a-tea-party-rebellion/
It's not about radical groups taking over the US government , it's about US citizens protecting themselves against a radical GOVERNMENT, big difference.
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: qman]
#22071438 - 08/10/15 11:59 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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We have radical government now. I doubt owning a gun is going to make me any safer if the police or FBI decide I need to be 'detained'.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 16 minutes, 21 seconds
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
#22071471 - 08/10/15 12:11 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
paperbackwriter said: We have radical government now. I doubt owning a gun is going to make me any safer if the police or FBI decide I need to be 'detained'.
Sure, they can just send out 300 million black ops teams one night and kidnap us all.
I used to agree with you on this, after all military might could crush our populace on a whim. But don't doubt the power of a motivated insurgency.
See: Afghanistan, Iraq, Vietnam....Keep in mind the problem with attacking your own people is you have to use your own people to do it. What percentage of US police, feds, military would willingly march their nation into concentration camps? Not enough is the answer.
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