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OfflineBigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs
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Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,337
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #22063028 - 08/08/15 03:01 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
And for those two statements, you call me a democrat and a Obama defender and supporter, which clearly I am not.




You are what you are.


Quote:

Just admit it, you were wrong and Bush did not end the Iraq war.  It's that simple, really.




Right. Historical, documented records to the contrary.

:lmafo:





If Bush had ended the war, Obama would have had to 're-start' the war, which he didn't do.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22063032 - 08/08/15 03:01 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Ignoring that the above paragraph in no way equals guns save 80 more lives than they take, you're also not counting how many Times criminals use guns without shooting, such as robbery, or how many times they shoot guns and don't kill anybody, etc.

Cherrypicking at its finest.




Ahh... the uh-uh defense. SOP for you and a few others in this thread.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22063036 - 08/08/15 03:02 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
If Bush had ended the war, Obama would have had to 're-start' the war, which he didn't do.




It's all in the link. I'm sure it's painful to have to acknowledge that all Obama did was follow an agreement that Bush signed, but it is what it is.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineDottoreWolfe
Doctor Wolfe


Registered: 02/21/15
Posts: 201
Last seen: 5 months, 12 days
Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22063045 - 08/08/15 03:05 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:


Guns used 2.5 million times a year in self-defense. Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year -- or about 6,850 times a day. This means that each year, firearms are used more than 80 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives

Source: Gary Kleck and Mark Getz "armed resistance to crime: the prevalence and nature of self defence with a gun" 86 the journal of criminal law and criminology, Northwestern university school of law,1 :164

Do you see how I regularly post links to sources? That's what people mean when they ask for sources. Not pages in a fuckin book. I'm not going to a library to check your ridiculous "facts".



You could probably search the title and check the facts online? How are my facts ridiculous if they come from one of the world's most respected law schools? Just because your lazy to check dosen't invalidate my sources or facts.you are the one who asked for my source...


--------------------
Everything I post should be regarded as wholly fictitious or hypothetical, nothing I post has any basis in reality.



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InvisibleKauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #22063047 - 08/08/15 03:05 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
And for those two statements, you call me a democrat and a Obama defender and supporter, which clearly I am not.




You are what you are.


Quote:

Just admit it, you were wrong and Bush did not end the Iraq war.  It's that simple, really.




Right. Historical, documented records to the contrary.

:lmafo:




Read Bob Gates book.  He was Secretary of Defense under Obama and Bush.  He's quite clear that war was still going strong when Obama took over.  Gates knew quite a bit more than you or I.  Woodward's research is thorough as well.

Negotiating a SOFA is not ending the war.  You're clearly confused.  We had thousands and thousands of combat troops IN COMBAT the day Obama walked into the White House.

Your arguments are laughable.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #22063046 - 08/08/15 03:05 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

The national homicide rate is 5.1 per 100,000 citizens.  3.5 of those are from guns.

That does not include accidental death or being shot by a cop (unless the cop was convicted of homicide).

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22063058 - 08/08/15 03:08 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Read Bob Gates book.  He was Secretary of Defense under Obama and Bush.  He's quite clear that war was still going strong when Obama took over.  Gates knew quite a bit more than you or I.  Woodward's research is thorough as well.

Negotiating a SOFA is not ending the war.  You're clearly confused.  We had thousands and thousands of combat troops IN COMBAT the day Obama walked into the White House.

Your arguments are laughable.




And yet, a historical, documented agreement. The end of the war was negotiated by the Bush admin. Protest all you want, the clown in the Oval Office merely followed a Bush agreement.

Even funnier... the pullout went according to the Bush timetable.

But you stick with idolizing your guy. :rofl:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineDottoreWolfe
Doctor Wolfe


Registered: 02/21/15
Posts: 201
Last seen: 5 months, 12 days
Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22063063 - 08/08/15 03:09 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
The national homicide rate is 5.1 per 100,000 citizens.  3.5 of those are from guns.

That does not include accidental death or being shot by a cop (unless the cop was convicted of homicide).

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm



Dosen't change the fact that guns are used 80x more often to protect a life than to take it


--------------------
Everything I post should be regarded as wholly fictitious or hypothetical, nothing I post has any basis in reality.



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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: DottoreWolfe]
    #22063069 - 08/08/15 03:11 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DottoreWolfe said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
The national homicide rate is 5.1 per 100,000 citizens.  3.5 of those are from guns.

That does not include accidental death or being shot by a cop (unless the cop was convicted of homicide).

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm



Dosen't change the fact that guns are used 80x more often to protect a life than to take it




Protect a life from other people with guns?

:girlofdisapproval:


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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OfflineDottoreWolfe
Doctor Wolfe


Registered: 02/21/15
Posts: 201
Last seen: 5 months, 12 days
Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22063072 - 08/08/15 03:12 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Protect a life through use of a gun in self defence when a life is in danger


--------------------
Everything I post should be regarded as wholly fictitious or hypothetical, nothing I post has any basis in reality.



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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: DottoreWolfe]
    #22063082 - 08/08/15 03:15 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DottoreWolfe said:
Protect a life through use of a gun in self defence when a life is in danger




Okay, well mostly I just wanted to use girl of disapproval.  I'm checking your facts now.  It looks like here in a moment I'm going to refute your findings.  My google-fu is pretty stellar.  I used to work in tech support :wink:

Please hold while I get that data you requested sir.

*edit*

Here you go

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-threats-and-self-defense-gun-use-2/

And an article from the LA times explaining NRA bias.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/opinion-la/la-ol-guns-self-defense-charleston-20150619-story.html

And another from nytimes

http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/15/defensive-gun-use/

And finally, a note on how the GOP has repeatedly refused giving funding to the CDC to research the issue.

http://www.propublica.org/article/republicans-say-no-to-cdc-gun-violence-research


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


Edited by paperbackwriter (08/08/15 03:18 PM)


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #22063106 - 08/08/15 03:21 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Read Bob Gates book.  He was Secretary of Defense under Obama and Bush.  He's quite clear that war was still going strong when Obama took over.  Gates knew quite a bit more than you or I.  Woodward's research is thorough as well.

Negotiating a SOFA is not ending the war.  You're clearly confused.  We had thousands and thousands of combat troops IN COMBAT the day Obama walked into the White House.

Your arguments are laughable.




And yet, a historical, documented agreement. The end of the war was negotiated by the Bush admin. Protest all you want, the clown in the Oval Office merely followed a Bush agreement.

Even funnier... the pullout went according to the Bush timetable.

But you stick with idolizing your guy. :rofl:




You do understand that a SOFA is primarily used to prevent our troops from being prosecuted for war crimes.  A SOFA is not a negotiated end of the war, a surrender, etc.  The SOFA was with the Iraqi government NOT the enemy we were fighting.  Please identify a surrender that the enemy in Iraq signed showing a surrender and end of the war?  LMAO.

The day Obama took over, American soldiers were in combat and dying in battle.  You seem to avoid that very important fact.

You are so confused it's funny.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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OfflineDottoreWolfe
Doctor Wolfe


Registered: 02/21/15
Posts: 201
Last seen: 5 months, 12 days
Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22063109 - 08/08/15 03:22 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Do you really think your Latimes article about NRA bias isn't a biased article xD?


--------------------
Everything I post should be regarded as wholly fictitious or hypothetical, nothing I post has any basis in reality.



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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: DottoreWolfe]
    #22063117 - 08/08/15 03:24 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DottoreWolfe said:
Do you really think your Latimes article about NRA bias isn't a biased article xD?




Everyone is biased.  It's why science is peer reviewed.  Nice try though.

Care to refute any of the other sources?


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22063131 - 08/08/15 03:27 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Higher end estimates by Kleck and Gertz show between 1 to 2.5 million DGUs in the United States each year.[1]:64–65[2][3] Low end estimates cited by Hemenway show approximately 55,000-80,000 such uses each year.[4][5] Middle estimates have estimated approximately 1 million DGU incidents in the United States.[1]:65[6]




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_gun_use

Even the lowest number is impressive. 55,000.

The middle number of a million... even more so.

And there's no way to know, but even the high number could be correct.

Move past dueling studies. It's clear there are large numbers of defensive uses.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineDottoreWolfe
Doctor Wolfe


Registered: 02/21/15
Posts: 201
Last seen: 5 months, 12 days
Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22063141 - 08/08/15 03:30 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Quote:

DottoreWolfe said:
Protect a life through use of a gun in self defence when a life is in danger




Okay, well mostly I just wanted to use girl of disapproval.  I'm checking your facts now.  It looks like here in a moment I'm going to refute your findings.  My google-fu is pretty stellar.  I used to work in tech support :wink:

Please hold while I get that data you requested sir.

*edit*

Here you go

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-threats-and-self-defense-gun-use-2/

And an article from the LA times explaining NRA bias.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/opinion-la/la-ol-guns-self-defense-charleston-20150619-story.html

And another from nytimes

http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/15/defensive-gun-use/

And finally, a note on how the GOP has repeatedly refused giving funding to the CDC to research the issue.

http://www.propublica.org/article/republicans-say-no-to-cdc-gun-violence-research




Now your Harvard article is an article outlining the social wrongs and marking things as socially undesirable. Most of the article refers to criminal use of weapons (kids being threatened, etc.) but making guns illegal only promotes criminal weapons access and now what that leaves is responsible Americans unable to protect themselves from the then thriving underground gun culture (like mexico's, one of most dangerous countries on planet and some of the strictest gun control). Implemented gun control has shown time and time again that gun control only increases gun violence for the vast majorities of countries it's implemented in and our founding fathers knew public disarmament would lead to a facist goverenment they even stated In our countries bill of rights: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


--------------------
Everything I post should be regarded as wholly fictitious or hypothetical, nothing I post has any basis in reality.



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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22063152 - 08/08/15 03:33 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
You do understand that a SOFA is primarily used to prevent our troops from being prosecuted for war crimes.  A SOFA is not a negotiated end of the war, a surrender, etc.  The SOFA was with the Iraqi government NOT the enemy we were fighting.  Please identify a surrender that the enemy in Iraq signed showing a surrender and end of the war?  LMAO.

The day Obama took over, American soldiers were in combat and dying in battle.  You seem to avoid that very important fact.

You are so confused it's funny.




And yet... it is what it is Malia. Or is it Sasha?

It was a Bush deal, pure and simple. You'll get over the pain eventually. Not all heroes stand the test of time. Alas, Obama's time ended before it began.

Your hero simply carried out the bidding of a Bush. That's gotta sting. A buffoon leading the way for an even more incompetent buffoon.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #22063184 - 08/08/15 03:40 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
You do understand that a SOFA is primarily used to prevent our troops from being prosecuted for war crimes.  A SOFA is not a negotiated end of the war, a surrender, etc.  The SOFA was with the Iraqi government NOT the enemy we were fighting.  Please identify a surrender that the enemy in Iraq signed showing a surrender and end of the war?  LMAO.

The day Obama took over, American soldiers were in combat and dying in battle.  You seem to avoid that very important fact.

You are so confused it's funny.




And yet... it is what it is Malia. Or is it Sasha?

It was a Bush deal, pure and simple. You'll get over the pain eventually. Not all heroes stand the test of time. Alas, Obama's time ended before it began.

Your hero simply carried out the bidding of a Bush. That's gotta sting. A buffoon leading the way for an even more incompetent buffoon.




Try dealing with one simple fact.  When Obama took the oath and entered the White House, the US had over a hundred thousand COMBAT troops in Iraq.  There were over 350 US soldiers KILLED in combat after Obama was sworn in and thousands more injured.  Our soldiers were still fighting the insurgency when Obama was President as Gates explains in detail.

Just deal with that one fact and then tell me Bush ended the Iraq war.

Your joy in defending Bush/Cheney is odd, to say the least.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


Edited by KauaiOrca (08/08/15 03:42 PM)


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22063220 - 08/08/15 03:46 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I'm not defending anyone, just pointing out the historical record.

The agreement was signed by Bush and in place when Obama took office. Obama attempted to alter the deal so as to leave troops on the ground. The Iraqi's rebuffed the buffoon and the pullout occurred as agreed to by Bush and the Iraqi's.

All your tears won't change that Obama did the bidding of Bush.

It's all right here.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #22063266 - 08/08/15 03:53 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
I'm not defending anyone, just pointing out the historical record.

The agreement was signed by Bush and in place when Obama took office. Obama attempted to alter the deal so as to leave troops on the ground. The Iraqi's rebuffed the buffoon and the pullout occurred as agreed to by Bush and the Iraqi's.

All your tears won't change that Obama did the bidding of Bush.

It's all right here.




You said Bush ended the Iraq war.  You were wrong.  You're trying to deflect and change the argument.  The SOFA agreement, frankly, has nothing to do with the fact that the war was going strong on Obama's first day in office and 09/10 as Gates explained in detail.

Bush didn't end either war.  Agreements with the Iraqi government on troop immunity have nothing to do with the fact that American soldiers were dying in battle while Obama was President.

You lost this argument.  Admit it.  Bush gave Obama two unfinished wars.  And, neither one were paid for either.  Those are facts.  Stop confusing yourself with SOFA agreements with Maliki.  The war was with Maliki's enemies.  We had not negotiated agreement with Maliki's enemies in 09/10.  The war was going strong.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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