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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22044554 - 08/04/15 09:06 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
In California illegal immigrants make up approx. 10% of the workforce.  The unemployment rate is 6.5%.  Assuming we can get everyone that's looking for a job a job we still have a very large gap in the labor force and mostly in the ag industry.

California's ag industry is huge too and an important part of both the u.s. and global economies.  It's not just about tomatoes rotting but processing, shipping, production.  The effect on the supply chain and with it employment seems like a big deal to me.

:shrug:




California is one of the least fit places to have big agriculture anyways. Regardless, LDS's proposal fits this situation perfectly. We could employ Americans to do whatever portion of the work they will do, and bring in migrant workers on work visas to do the rest of it.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Offlineqman
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22044780 - 08/04/15 09:50 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
In California illegal immigrants make up approx. 10% of the workforce.  The unemployment rate is 6.5%.  Assuming we can get everyone that's looking for a job a job we still have a very large gap in the labor force and mostly in the ag industry.

California's ag industry is huge too and an important part of both the u.s. and global economies.  It's not just about tomatoes rotting but processing, shipping, production.  The effect on the supply chain and with it employment seems like a big deal to me.

:shrug:




"The unemployment rate is 6.5%"

That's the reported rate, the real rate is closer to 20%.

"have a large gap in the labor force"

:facepalm:  This statement is beyond funny, the US has tens of millions of unemployed US working age people, there's a massive surplus of labor in the US, that's one of the main reasons why illegals all need to be deported, it's a crisis.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: qman]
    #22045077 - 08/04/15 10:53 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
In California illegal immigrants make up approx. 10% of the workforce.  The unemployment rate is 6.5%.  Assuming we can get everyone that's looking for a job a job we still have a very large gap in the labor force and mostly in the ag industry.

California's ag industry is huge too and an important part of both the u.s. and global economies.  It's not just about tomatoes rotting but processing, shipping, production.  The effect on the supply chain and with it employment seems like a big deal to me.

:shrug:




"The unemployment rate is 6.5%"

That's the reported rate, the real rate is closer to 20%.

"have a large gap in the labor force"

:facepalm:  This statement is beyond funny, the US has tens of millions of unemployed US working age people, there's a massive surplus of labor in the US, that's one of the main reasons why illegals all need to be deported, it's a crisis.




Even Bernie Sanders wants to close the boarders. This is a somewhat bipartisan issue, though mostly right-wingers are saying it, and it's one of the only things they're right about.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22045754 - 08/05/15 04:55 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
In California illegal immigrants make up approx. 10% of the workforce.  The unemployment rate is 6.5%.  Assuming we can get everyone that's looking for a job a job we still have a very large gap in the labor force and mostly in the ag industry.

California's ag industry is huge too and an important part of both the u.s. and global economies.  It's not just about tomatoes rotting but processing, shipping, production.  The effect on the supply chain and with it employment seems like a big deal to me.

:shrug:




I guess you missed this part of my response:

Quote:

Bring workers in legally on worker visas.




First, try to get Americans to do it. If we can't, I don't care if we bring in legal foreign workers, just get rid of as many illegals as we can.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #22045921 - 08/05/15 06:54 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

One way or another, the crops would get picked. People like to act like Americans can't do this kind of work, or won't, but that's bullshit. I've seen Americans do harder work than that in worse conditions. I do think the pay would have to be higher, and I think the agro industry could pay higher wages just like every other industry. Big Agriculture gets subsidized hugely by the federal government. I'm sure they could subsidize labor costs instead of something else, and there are people who would migrate from within America if there are no jobs where they live. We could also bring in Mexicans on work visas, legally, which makes perfect sense.

I understand wanting to help less fortunate countries, but this is not the time. We need to get our country back on its feet before we worry about anybody else.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22045949 - 08/05/15 07:08 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
One way or another, the crops would get picked. People like to act like Americans can't do this kind of work, or won't, but that's bullshit. I've seen Americans do harder work than that in worse conditions. I do think the pay would have to be higher, and I think the agro industry could pay higher wages just like every other industry. Big Agriculture gets subsidized hugely by the federal government. I'm sure they could subsidize labor costs instead of something else, and there are people who would migrate from within America if there are no jobs where they live. We could also bring in Mexicans on work visas, legally, which makes perfect sense.

I understand wanting to help less fortunate countries, but this is not the time. We need to get our country back on its feet before we worry about anybody else.




I agree that we could find legally here Americans and Immigrants to pick and tend crops if the compensation was fair.  We have, however, a highly predatory global financial system that says:

- Big profits returned to shareholders and a few top executives is GOOD
- Big profits shared with the hardest working employees is BAD

Until that changes it will be very difficult to "justify" the additional expense that fair labor policies generate.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


Edited by KauaiOrca (08/05/15 07:09 AM)


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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22045966 - 08/05/15 07:17 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

Coincidentiaoppositorum said:
Again, this isn't criticism, I'm simply pointing out what happened, example: Rick Perry goes on and on about eliminating three institutions of government, then during the same speech after saying he will eliminate these 3 institutions of government, he can't even name them. I'm not exaggerating or criticizing, that's what happened, this guy is full of shit and tripped over his own sick during a speech exposing the fact that he has no idea what he is talking about...THEN HE GETS GLASSES so people think he is smart...

Michelle Bachmann is stupider than Sara Palin, this isn't an exaggeration or criticism, it's a fact, both these politicians are boarder line retarded.

Sam Brownback fucked Kansas with his ultra-right wing policies, this is a fact.

Paul Ryan and his path to prosperity would have destroyed this nation, this is a fact

...and again, just like I said in that initial post, instead of discussing he politicians or the issues you turn to personal attack "your just buying into this or that" rather than engage in a debate on the issues...

-E. Borodin




... And you've only scratched the surface. Republicans don't even sound intelligent, or say intelligent things. They sound like belligerent assholes. Republicans tell you they are going to fuck the American people over, and they tell you it's for your own fucking good, because they 'need' to spread your tax dollars to their wealthy buddies.

Republican voters are the fucking mindless idiots who actually vote against their own best interest. They are exquisitely vulnerable to the most primitive of human emotions: Greed, hate, and fear.




I know, sometimes I think republicans only hold their beliefs to troll the left or because they took money from special interests...

Do you think James Inhofe is really so stupid he thinks snow in February disproves climate change? Or did big oil cut him a check  for millions?

-E. Borodin


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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: qman]
    #22046013 - 08/05/15 07:37 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

"you have to admit they (Dems) are not anywhere near as outrageously stupid as the republicans"

I will agree with you to a certain extent, but what the Dems have over the Repubs is hypocrisy.

The Dems talk a better game, but that results in them delivering less as a result.




I can't argue with you there.


Though when people like Paul Ryan start proposing things like his "path to prosperity" it worries me, the democrats are hypocrites, but their policy is no where near as dangerous...

The right wants to destroy all corporate regulations, giving corporations the right to destroy the air and earth as well as financially fuck the lower and middle classes with funny banking practices...When the right talks about freedom they are talking about the freedom for corporations from regulation...the tea party was meant to look like some grass-roots right-wing event, in reality the Koch brothers were behind most of it, and the Koch brothers don't care about the lower and middle classes or America, they care about getting the government out of their businesses, which would be fine, but the government is preventing them from destroying the environment and forming monopolies...

The right needs the philosophy of Ayn rand just so they can ease the guilt of the misery they are causing, like the John galt character in atlas shrugged, they feel showing sympathy to less fortunate people is weakness, that there's no reason to feel sorry for anybody, and that preservation of selfishness and greed is your right as the rich... they say "why do people hate us for being successful?" It's because every billion you hoard is taken from the economy, taken from the pockets of those who are poor, it's vast inequality in resource distribution...they complain about the poor while they know they made them that way...

IM getting too subjective here though...

I honestly believe right wing policies would benefit a small group of rich who are willing to abandon this country after they destroy it, leaving us in the rubble to fix their fucking mess...


They are willing to destroy the planet to protect their privileged position...

-E. Borodin


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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #22046032 - 08/05/15 07:45 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

You would have to be insane to think that destruction of corporate regulations, elimination of all social programs (food stamps,Medicaid,welfare,etc...) and tax breaks for the rich will save this country, and that's what the right is intent on enacting, their policy will turn the United states into a 3rd world country, with a 1% mega-billionaire population...and its not just here! These banks will find a developing country in Africa, they will loan them money to start their country, but then will Jack up the interest so high that the country will be in permanent debt, having to sacrifices it's raw resources in place of the money they owe...now keep in mind the initial loans get paid off, it's the interest that creates third world nations and allows the United states to exploit their economy and loot their resources...

The right and the banks and the policies they create are creating poverty across the globe...

-E. Borodin


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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #22046040 - 08/05/15 07:51 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

...and that's the real issue, people are forming opinions and siding with political parties without ever knowing the real issues, they hear some of the words comming from the politicians mouth, they hear the news media talk, but they never actually researched any real world political issues...

The majority of the voting population has no idea how global economics and banking work, they don't even know much about how their own government works, yet they will side with these politicians and  fiercely defend their politics, when in reality they are ignorant to 90% of what's actually going on...

-E. Borodin


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22046116 - 08/05/15 08:18 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

First of all my original argument wasn't all that realistic.

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
If tomorrow the right wing wet dream of sending them all back was granted, yes, high school dropouts would have an easier time finding jobs, and the U.S. economy would collapse as the rest of the unemployed snubbed their collective noses at breaking their backs for minimum wage.




My point was that the kid had a point.  A lot of our economy runs on the sweat of illegal immigrants.  Disenfranchised and disempowered Americans like to use them as an easy scapegoat.  Trump is tapping into and feeding this feeling.  They're not the boogeyman and kicking them all out isn't going to solve our problems, in fact it's going to create more if not handled with some care.

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
First, try to get Americans to do it. If we can't, I don't care if we bring in legal foreign workers, just get rid of as many illegals as we can.




It would make more sense and be more practical to offer a path to amnesty or to grant work visas to illegals already here.

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
California is one of the least fit places to have big agriculture anyways. Regardless, LDS's proposal fits this situation perfectly. We could employ Americans to do whatever portion of the work they will do, and bring in migrant workers on work visas to do the rest of it.




If it's such a shitty place to grow crops why is it such an important part of the world's agriculture?  And regardless of rather it's good or bad it is currently a huge part of the global ag business.

Quote:

qman said:
"The unemployment rate is 6.5%"

That's the reported rate, the real rate is closer to 20%.

"have a large gap in the labor force"

:facepalm:  This statement is beyond funny, the US has tens of millions of unemployed US working age people, there's a massive surplus of labor in the US, that's one of the main reasons why illegals all need to be deported, it's a crisis.




Assuming you're referring to the percentage of the population that isn't part of the labor force it's 23%.  Up from 18% prior to the crash.  This includes kids and elderly people who have no intention of ever returning to the workforce as well as our massive prison population.

Regardless my statement was concerning only those actively looking for work as I doubt those who have given up are going to jump on shit jobs working in fields for peanuts.  Even if the ag industry can change that perception of agriculture work can they do it before billions of dollars of crops are lost?  Even if we can bring in work from out of state?  Even if we can bring in immigrants from out of the country?

Crops are time sensitive.  Eventually yes agriculture would recover but if we kicked all the illegals out tomorrow (my original statement, regardless of how ridiculous it was) shit would be fucked up.

But again my point wasn't even that we should let the illegals stay here but rather that we are dependant on them rather you like it or not.  They break their backs everyday for us.  And you, specifically qman, act like we're at war with Mexicans coming over here stealing our jobs.

To paraphrase something I read last night, what a funny way to fight a war, working for the enemy.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


Edited by paperbackwriter (08/05/15 08:30 AM)


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Offlineqman
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22046228 - 08/05/15 08:47 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

The agricultural industry will transition just fine without cheap illegal labor, the crops won't rot and US citizens won't stave, but thanks for your overwhelming concern.

"They break their backs everyday for us"

No they don't, they work for businesses that make very large profit margins off of their cheap wages, do you receive dividend checks from this scenario?  No.

Actually, we break our backs for them everyday, who do you think pays for their welfare, food stamps, disability, housing, health care, and criminal justice system usage?  You got it, me and you!!


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22046230 - 08/05/15 08:47 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I follow politics carefully and have for years.  The GOP economic program, in a nutshell continues to be:

1. Bigger tax breaks for corporations and the wealthiest
2. Cuts in entitlements and social safety net programs
3. Fewer regulations for corporations on virtually all levels
4. Enabling banks to get bigger and bigger and bigger with more leverage
5. Outsourcing + free trade + access to cheapest labor markets possible
6. Profits to shareholders and top execs and as little shared with workers as possible
7. Corporations continue to buy our politicians
8. Privatizing virtually everything
9. Removing all restrictions to how LITTLE corporations can pay lowest paid employees

If that has changed, please let me know.  If you think that's a recipe for a prosperous future for our country, you're frigging insane.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


Edited by KauaiOrca (08/05/15 08:52 AM)


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22046256 - 08/05/15 08:57 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

You've all missed my point.  The kid was sick of his friends and family being blamed for America's problems.

I'm all for living wages.  I'm also for amnesty.  I recognize that industry abuses cheap labor.  I don't blame other poor people and I'm certainly not listening to a real estate tycoons rhetoric on the issue.

But do what you want.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Offlineqman
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22046305 - 08/05/15 09:13 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
You've all missed my point.  The kid was sick of his friends and family being blamed for America's problems.

I'm all for living wages.  I'm also for amnesty.  I recognize that industry abuses cheap labor.  I don't blame other poor people and I'm certainly not listening to a real estate tycoons rhetoric on the issue.

But do what you want.




"The kid was sick of his friends and family being blamed for America's problems"

That's too bad, they are to blame for many of the problems in this country. The fact that he goes on a violent criminal rampage to express his displeasure on the characterization of his people speaks volumes.

"I'm also for amnesty"

Most US citizens are NOT for it, that's why Trump is so popular.  The fact that Trump is against amnesty doesn't make it any less legitimate, so keep on insulting the person to piss on a rational political position.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22046320 - 08/05/15 09:18 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
First, try to get Americans to do it. If we can't, I don't care if we bring in legal foreign workers, just get rid of as many illegals as we can.




It would make more sense and be more practical to offer a path to amnesty or to grant work visas to illegals already here.




Utter nonsense. You don't reward lawbreakers. All that does is encourage the next batch of lawbreakers.

Forbid anyone found to be here illegally from ever getting legal status. Forbid them drivers licenses, welfare, food stamps, jobs, medical care and anything else they desire.

Also... no-one missed your point. You failed to make one.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22046378 - 08/05/15 09:31 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

KO, you seem to overlook the fact that dems vote for all those things you listed. What do you think obumble has pushed for ever since he got in? The dems make speeches against those things but then they cross over in just enough numbers to always pass the bad bills. Like the tpp, the other alphabet secret deals, the wars, corporate handouts, and so on. Its a little dog and pony show they put on to fool the sheep.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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Offlineqman
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22046416 - 08/05/15 09:41 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
KO, you seem to overlook the fact that dems vote for all those things you listed. What do you think obumble has pushed for ever since he got in? The dems make speeches against those things but then they cross over in just enough numbers to always pass the bad bills. Like the tpp, the other alphabet secret deals, the wars, corporate handouts, and so on. Its a little dog and pony show they put on to fool the sheep.




:whathesaid:

How many times in the past 6 years has Obama used the term "fat cats" to describe the Bankers on Wall Street?  1000?

Who put Obama into office in 2008?  The Wall Street Bankers!!!!    :smilingpuppy:

Who has made the "fat cat" Bankers on Wall Street hundreds of billions of dollars?  Obama!!  :rofl2:


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Posts: 1,888
Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: qman]
    #22046433 - 08/05/15 09:46 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Man..  for this forum you guys sure have a lot of respect for law and order.  :lol:

Quote:

qman said:
Most US citizens are NOT for it, that's why Trump is so popular.  The fact that Trump is against amnesty doesn't make it any less legitimate, so keep on insulting the person to piss on a rational political position.




Most?  Is this like your Unemployment figure that included kids, the prison population, and people in nursing homes?

http://www.fairus.org/facts/illegal-immigration-and-amnesty-polls

The actual numbers are way more nuanced than that.  Most people do favor amnesty but only after the borders are secure.  I favor amnesty and cracking down on businesses in order to reduce the jobs available to illegal immigrants because securing a border that size is a fucking pipe dream.  Let the people already here work if they haven't committed other crimes.  Fine the fuck out of industries that hire illegals from that point forward.

We have data that shows this method works.  Or did work when we enforced it.

Shit here's a right wing think tank talking about it.

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2008/10/reducing-illegal-immigration-through-employment-verification-enforcement-and-protection

And some more data.

http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/declining-enforcement-employer-sanctions

But let's build a fucking wall and deport everyone because Trump knows what he's talking about right?  Or maybe he's just talking out his ass because he knows it will fire up the base.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Offlineqman
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Registered: 12/06/06
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22046594 - 08/05/15 10:45 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

The point is, most don't think the border will ever be secured (65-75%), so most (60-80%) DON'T want amnesty under those conditions.

I agree, crack down hard on employers but also end the social services.  The idea of doing all of these methods along with deportation has been around for a very long time before Trump came into the picture.


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