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KauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: psyconaught]
#22004996 - 07/27/15 02:56 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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psyconaught said:
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qman said:
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psyconaught said:
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Do you really think if you are out for a casual walk and a cop stops you and asks for your ID that if you speak good English you'll be hassled if you don't have it? Seriously?
its not necessarily that i think I personally will be harassed. I just see the potential for EXTREME abuse of a law like this. See the stop and frisk laws in NYC for an example of a law similar to this that got abused, i'm aware that i as a white male probably wouldnt be bothered, but that doesnt mean i want to see others abused at the hands of an inherently racist law.
The authorities know where the large majority of illegals reside, that's not the issue. The idea that US citizens will be constantly harassed is ridiculous.
You're looking for a perfect solution for a country that's been invaded, that's not going to happen.
"inherently racist law"
No, deporting illegals is not racist, it doesn't matter if they came from South America, Europe, or Asia, illegal is illegal regards of RACE.
There are three ways this law could be enforced:
A) They could enforce it equally for every singe person, which means every citizen would be stopped and asked for papers when seen by the police.
or
B)The police will have to profile in order to make the law as efficient as possible, and whats the easiest way to profile what an illegal looks like? By race.
or
C)the police will use this law to harass people they don't like, just like every other law similar to this on the books.
I'm guessing we'd see C and A mixed together. Now i agree illegal immigration is a problem, but i don't think turning us into a "papers please" police state is the answer.
If you are a cop hired to go after gang violence, then, of course, you are going to go to where gangs hangout. If you're a cop going after white collar insider trading, then chances are you're going to be looking at unusual trading activity. If you're out making sure people fishing have licenses, then you'll head to the rivers and lakes. If you want to stop speeding on the highways, then you go to the highways. And if you want to find people living here illegally, then you go to where they are most likely hanging out. That's how policing works.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22005093 - 07/27/15 03:18 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Papers please sounds annoying.
I've been reading up on the issue and I still think cracking down on employers is the way to go. In the 90s fining them was really effective in reducing immigration.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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psyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
#22005122 - 07/27/15 03:28 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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paperbackwriter said: Papers please sounds annoying.
I've been reading up on the issue and I still think cracking down on employers is the way to go. In the 90s fining them was really effective in reducing immigration.
I agree, go through the employment route.
-------------------- Think for yourself, question authority
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spock
journeyman
Registered: 08/26/03
Posts: 1,165
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
#22005123 - 07/27/15 03:28 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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paperbackwriter said: Papers please sounds annoying.
I've been reading up on the issue and I still think cracking down on employers is the way to go. In the 90s fining them was really effective in reducing immigration.
This. And papers please is fucking unamerican.
Peace Spock
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KauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
#22005175 - 07/27/15 03:42 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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paperbackwriter said: Papers please sounds annoying.
I've been reading up on the issue and I still think cracking down on employers is the way to go. In the 90s fining them was really effective in reducing immigration.
Go after both. Employers and illegal aliens.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22005688 - 07/27/15 05:27 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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>Lots of idiotic conservatives think open borders is some kind of a long term plot to swing the country democratic with immigrants that won't be capable of voting for decades.
Haven't you heard? They can vote soon as they get off the boat or dry out from swimming the rio grande. Dems tell us requiring id is racist and discriminates against illegal aliens. They know they will vote for the biggest handouts so no big mystery why dems are against voter id and gop is in favor. Most rational citizens are in favor of it too.
Cracking down on employers is good too, you have to do both. And since when did citizens never have to show papers?
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Achillita
Back to the basics



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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Stonehenge]
#22005834 - 07/27/15 05:49 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I know quite a bit of LEGAL Mexican immigrants who don't speak good english. My girlfriends parents both immigrated here about 20 years ago, and they don't speak english well, but they can understand it. There are citizens who live in the US who just don't speak good english. Or they have really thick accents.
Just because there is a problem with illegal immigration, doesn't mean that citizens have to be harassed based on their appearance or background.
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KauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Achillita]
#22005934 - 07/27/15 06:07 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Achillita said: I know quite a bit of LEGAL Mexican immigrants who don't speak good english. My girlfriends parents both immigrated here about 20 years ago, and they don't speak english well, but they can understand it. There are citizens who live in the US who just don't speak good english. Or they have really thick accents.
Just because there is a problem with illegal immigration, doesn't mean that citizens have to be harassed based on their appearance or background.
How is asking for ID being harassed? Are you harassed every time you check into a hotel or sign legal papers? Are you being harassed when you drive in your car with license plates (ID) on display to everyone? Is it being harassed when you are asked at a liquor store for ID?
If there is reasonable suspicion to believe a person may be here illegally, then cops should ask for ID. That's what policing is all about. You look for evidence of suspicion and investigate.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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psyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22005975 - 07/27/15 06:17 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
KauaiOrca said:
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Achillita said: I know quite a bit of LEGAL Mexican immigrants who don't speak good english. My girlfriends parents both immigrated here about 20 years ago, and they don't speak english well, but they can understand it. There are citizens who live in the US who just don't speak good english. Or they have really thick accents.
Just because there is a problem with illegal immigration, doesn't mean that citizens have to be harassed based on their appearance or background.
How is asking for ID being harassed? Are you harassed every time you check into a hotel or sign legal papers? Are you being harassed when you drive in your car with license plates (ID) on display to everyone? Is it being harassed when you are asked at a liquor store for ID?
If there is reasonable suspicion to believe a person may be here illegally, then cops should ask for ID. That's what policing is all about. You look for evidence of suspicion and investigate.
all of those activities are voluntary and optional.
And that reasonable suspicion is being of a certain race.
-------------------- Think for yourself, question authority
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: psyconaught]
#22006138 - 07/27/15 06:32 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think enforcing these laws via employers is an excellent route. I don't think giving our police one ounce more power is the way to go. No matter how you do it, there will still be illegals, but there are ways to curb illegal immigration.
I don't think it's racist to prevent people from coming here illegaly. It's fucking illegal. It is racist to profile people based on race and ask them for papers because they look hispanic.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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psyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#22006158 - 07/27/15 06:33 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Bigbadwooof said: I think enforcing these laws via employers is an excellent route. I don't think giving our police one ounce more power is the way to go. No matter how you do it, there will still be illegals, but there are ways to curb illegal immigration.
I don't think it's racist to prevent people from coming here illegaly. It's fucking illegal. It is racist to profile people based on race and ask them for papers because they look hispanic.
-------------------- Think for yourself, question authority
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Achillita
Back to the basics



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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#22006376 - 07/27/15 07:08 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Bigbadwooof said: I think enforcing these laws via employers is an excellent route. I don't think giving our police one ounce more power is the way to go. No matter how you do it, there will still be illegals, but there are ways to curb illegal immigration.
I don't think it's racist to prevent people from coming here illegaly. It's fucking illegal. It is racist to profile people based on race and ask them for papers because they look hispanic.
Couldn't have said it any better.
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Stonehenge
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Registered: 06/20/04
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Achillita]
#22006505 - 07/27/15 07:39 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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So anything "racist" is bad according to you guys? Then affirmative action is bad because that is based on race. We aren't a bunch of hypocrites are we?
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Achillita
Back to the basics



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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Stonehenge]
#22006659 - 07/27/15 08:13 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I don't really like the idea of affirmative action, and I think it will eventually be phased out together in the US. While it does get jobs for minorities who are commonly discriminated against, It restricts people who are qualified to obtain a job solely based on race.
But to assume that haivng cops walk up to people who tehy suspect are illegal, and then making them go through a bunch of shit if they happened to forget their ID is idiotic. It was either New Mexico or Nevada that actually would have police ask people for proof they are a US citizen. It was banned by the state courts as unconstitutional though. It was just a way for people to harass latino people.
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qman
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#22006797 - 07/27/15 08:42 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Bigbadwooof said: I think enforcing these laws via employers is an excellent route. I don't think giving our police one ounce more power is the way to go. No matter how you do it, there will still be illegals, but there are ways to curb illegal immigration.
I don't think it's racist to prevent people from coming here illegaly. It's fucking illegal. It is racist to profile people based on race and ask them for papers because they look hispanic.
If the large majority of illegals are Hispanic, then they are going to be profiled, that's not racism it's commonsense.
If hispanic people don't like that method of profiling they are free to return to their homeland, something tells me they will tolerate a little "harassment" to stay in the US.
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spock
journeyman
Registered: 08/26/03
Posts: 1,165
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: qman]
#22006848 - 07/27/15 08:56 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
If the large majority of illegals are Hispanic, then they are going to be profiled, that's not racism it's commonsense.
If hispanic people don't like that method of profiling they are free to return to their homeland, something tells me they will tolerate a little "harassment" to stay in the US.
Really? LOL. You don't grasp. Look, dude. Do you consider yourself racist? If so, I get it. If not, you don't.
Peace Spock
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: qman]
#22006881 - 07/27/15 09:02 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
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Bigbadwooof said: I think enforcing these laws via employers is an excellent route. I don't think giving our police one ounce more power is the way to go. No matter how you do it, there will still be illegals, but there are ways to curb illegal immigration.
I don't think it's racist to prevent people from coming here illegaly. It's fucking illegal. It is racist to profile people based on race and ask them for papers because they look hispanic.
If the large majority of illegals are Hispanic, then they are going to be profiled, that's not racism it's commonsense.
If hispanic people don't like that method of profiling they are free to return to their homeland, something tells me they will tolerate a little "harassment" to stay in the US.
As an American, I have the right to travel unmolested. Freely, within my country. It is unconstitutional to stop people and ask for their papers. It is racist also, if police profile people when doing so. Do you want to live in communist Russia, or Nazi Germany? I refuse to live in a country where I can be asked for papers and harrassed because I look at a cop wrong.
I have already explained in another thread why affirmative action is not racist, so I won't be going over it again here, Stoney.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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qman
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: spock]
#22006922 - 07/27/15 09:12 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
spock said:
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qman said:
If the large majority of illegals are Hispanic, then they are going to be profiled, that's not racism it's commonsense.
If hispanic people don't like that method of profiling they are free to return to their homeland, something tells me they will tolerate a little "harassment" to stay in the US.
Really? LOL. You don't grasp. Look, dude. Do you consider yourself racist? If so, I get it. If not, you don't.
Peace Spock
Law enforcement mainly uses ageism and sexism in profiling criminals, I don't hear anyone complaining about it, why? Because it's nothing more than basic commonsense and it works.
When a country has been invaded with millions of people from south of the border, you use commonsense methods to attain your goals, if you find that racist in nature but never complain about sexism and ageism you're a hypocrite.
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qman
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#22006936 - 07/27/15 09:15 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
qman said:
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Bigbadwooof said: I think enforcing these laws via employers is an excellent route. I don't think giving our police one ounce more power is the way to go. No matter how you do it, there will still be illegals, but there are ways to curb illegal immigration.
I don't think it's racist to prevent people from coming here illegaly. It's fucking illegal. It is racist to profile people based on race and ask them for papers because they look hispanic.
If the large majority of illegals are Hispanic, then they are going to be profiled, that's not racism it's commonsense.
If hispanic people don't like that method of profiling they are free to return to their homeland, something tells me they will tolerate a little "harassment" to stay in the US.
As an American, I have the right to travel unmolested. Freely, within my country. It is unconstitutional to stop people and ask for their papers. It is racist also, if police profile people when doing so. Do you want to live in communist Russia, or Nazi Germany? I refuse to live in a country where I can be asked for papers and harrassed because I look at a cop wrong.
I have already explained in another thread why affirmative action is not racist, so I won't be going over it again here, Stoney.
Law enforcement uses profiling all the time, yet we still have a functional society, how does that happen. 
Also, AA is a racist policy, I don't think its supporters even deny that fact.
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: qman]
#22006968 - 07/27/15 09:23 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Well, I'm not going over Affirmative Action again, however, I will say that it is not legal for police to profile. Most people are against profiling.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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