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Offlineqman
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Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: qman]
    #22003820 - 07/27/15 10:36 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Achillita said:
If I remember correctly, quite a few courts decided that it was unconstitutional to ask for ID if they suspect you're an Illegal immigrants without any sort of probable cause. I know for a fact that courts in Arizona decided that.

Going around and seeing if someones an illegal immigrant based off of whether they have documentation they've been here is unconstitutional. You can't just go up to a person and ask them for proof they are a citizen. For the people who are citizens, it's just a non needed hassle. And also completely racist, because we all know who's gonna be targeted.




You can argue the legalities and constitutionality of the process all you want, if the policy is to remove illegal immigrants it's going to happen.

Remember they broke the law, apprehending criminals is never a easy task and it does sometimes inconvenience US citizens, but it's really no different than tracking down a US criminal.

The most important part of the process is the overwhelming support from the general population, US citizens want their country back.



while illegal immigration is an issue i'm certainly not ready to turn my country into a "papers please" police state because of it.




It's just a matter of changing the polices that bring and keep them here in the first place, take away the freebies/employment and they will have no choice but to return back home.


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: qman]
    #22003835 - 07/27/15 10:40 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

What freebies?

I agree with the employment.  But this is an issue of regulation and corruption that runs far deeper than immigration.

Plus what then?  Aren't we already outsourcing a lot of this work to China?  I know meat packaging in China was just approved which, along with migrant work, is a large part of how immigrants are employed.

Won't this also push up the cost of produce?


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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OfflineAchillita
Back to the basics
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Registered: 05/26/14
Posts: 4,565
Last seen: 3 years, 10 days
Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: qman]
    #22003847 - 07/27/15 10:43 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

But the point is that the people who are always targeted is going to be people of latino descent. They already get enough shit in this country from racist people who think anyone who is latino descent is illegal.

I don't have my ID on me all the time. Probably about 30% of the time really. To think I could be taken by the police for possibly being an illegal immigrant.


--------------------


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Offlineqman
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Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 2 hours, 53 minutes
Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22003874 - 07/27/15 10:50 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
What freebies?

I agree with the employment.  But this is an issue of regulation and corruption that runs far deeper than immigration.

Plus what then?  Aren't we already outsourcing a lot of this work to China?  I know meat packaging in China was just approved which, along with migrant work, is a large part of how immigrants are employed.

Won't this also push up the cost of produce?




"What freebies?"

Illegals immigrants that have a child in the US qualify for every dam US benefit (welfare, food stamps, public housing, health care, education,
ect).

"Aren't we already outsourcing a lot of work to China?"

Unfortunately, the answer is yes. There's still a lot of domestic work that can't be outsourced, those jobs need to be for US citizens, not illegals looking to undercut them for cheap wages.

"Won't this push up the price of produce?"

Maybe, but that's a small price to pay considering all the tax costs that will be saved and all the jobs that will go back to US citizens. The "my fruit is going to cost too much" argument just doesn't cut it and most people know it.


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Offlineqman
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Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Achillita]
    #22003926 - 07/27/15 11:02 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Achillita said:
But the point is that the people who are always targeted is going to be people of latino descent. They already get enough shit in this country from racist people who think anyone who is latino descent is illegal.

I don't have my ID on me all the time. Probably about 30% of the time really. To think I could be taken by the police for possibly being an illegal immigrant.




"people who are always targeted is going to be people of latino descent"

Wouldn't that only make sense?  I don't think Canadians invaded the US with 30 million illegals.

"They already get enough shit in this country from racist people who think anyone who is latino is illegal"

I'm sure after 5-10 years of deporting illegals that the scrutiny would go away, so it's temporary inconvenience.

The habit of having proper documentation will become more normal for many people, if someone is a US citizen it shouldn't be a issue.


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OfflineAchillita
Back to the basics
Male


Registered: 05/26/14
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: qman]
    #22004026 - 07/27/15 11:24 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

The illegal immigrant population has leveled off in the past 5 years, being about 3.5% of the US population. Illegal immigratation from mexico is on the decline, and has been increasing from canada, europe, asia, and the Caribbean slightly. About 20% of all illegal immigrants are from those areas.

I'd rather not get stopped by the cops and get in custody because I forgot my ID card, because usually I don't drive and don't need it. I'd rather not give up that basic freedom, because I'm half mexican. And because of that, I could be targeted for an ID check. Do you know how idiotic that is? Being REQUIRED for no reason to make sure I'm a citizen, that just sounds like it'll be so eas to be abused.


--------------------


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Achillita]
    #22004303 - 07/27/15 12:36 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Shoot to kill and they will deport themselves.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: qman]
    #22004365 - 07/27/15 12:49 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
"What freebies?"

Illegals immigrants that have a child in the US qualify for every dam US benefit (welfare, food stamps, public housing, health care, education,
ect).




Fair enough.  I often hear the argument that illegals themselves are getting welfare.  Obviously kids born in the U.S. are citizens so they would have the same benefits as anyone else.

Quote:

"Won't this push up the price of produce?"

Maybe, but that's a small price to pay considering all the tax costs that will be saved and all the jobs that will go back to US citizens. The "my fruit is going to cost too much" argument just doesn't cut it and most people know it.




I just hear the same argument when it comes to increasing minimum wage.  And I agree, it doesn't cut it, in either instance.

As far as taxes, the data I've looked at supports the argument that illegals pay more in taxes than the average citizen as they often work using dead people's SSNs and don't file for returns.  Are you referring to some other tax cost of immigrants I'm not aware of?


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Offlineqman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 2 hours, 53 minutes
Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22004524 - 07/27/15 01:30 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Quote:

qman said:
"What freebies?"

Illegals immigrants that have a child in the US qualify for every dam US benefit (welfare, food stamps, public housing, health care, education,
ect).




Fair enough.  I often hear the argument that illegals themselves are getting welfare.  Obviously kids born in the U.S. are citizens so they would have the same benefits as anyone else.

Quote:

"Won't this push up the price of produce?"

Maybe, but that's a small price to pay considering all the tax costs that will be saved and all the jobs that will go back to US citizens. The "my fruit is going to cost too much" argument just doesn't cut it and most people know it.




I just hear the same argument when it comes to increasing minimum wage.  And I agree, it doesn't cut it, in either instance.

As far as taxes, the data I've looked at supports the argument that illegals pay more in taxes than the average citizen as they often work using dead people's SSNs and don't file for returns.  Are you referring to some other tax cost of immigrants I'm not aware of?




"tax cost of immigrants I'm not aware of?"

http://www.fairus.org/news/illegal-immigration-costs-california-taxpayers-more-than-25-billion-a-year-finds-fair

"providing education, health care, law enforcement, and social and government services to illegal aliens and their dependents cost Californians $25.3 billion per year"

"finds that taxes collected from illegal aliens amount to about $3.5 billion annually"

So illegals use almost 8 TIMES in tax revenue than they contribute, they all need to be deported.


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Offlineqman
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Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 2 hours, 53 minutes
Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Achillita]
    #22004545 - 07/27/15 01:36 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Achillita said:
The illegal immigrant population has leveled off in the past 5 years, being about 3.5% of the US population. Illegal immigratation from mexico is on the decline, and has been increasing from canada, europe, asia, and the Caribbean slightly. About 20% of all illegal immigrants are from those areas.

I'd rather not get stopped by the cops and get in custody because I forgot my ID card, because usually I don't drive and don't need it. I'd rather not give up that basic freedom, because I'm half mexican. And because of that, I could be targeted for an ID check. Do you know how idiotic that is? Being REQUIRED for no reason to make sure I'm a citizen, that just sounds like it'll be so eas to be abused.




Don't blame the people that need to enforce a law broken by crimneals, blame the people that broke the law in the first place.

"I could be targeted for an ID check"

That's true, I use my ID for meaningfully security purposes and I have no issue with it.

"Do you know who idiotic that is?"

It makes perfect sense when criminals have illegally invaded our country, again your issue should be with the illegals not the people enforcing a good law.


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: qman]
    #22004563 - 07/27/15 01:39 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Achillita said:
The illegal immigrant population has leveled off in the past 5 years, being about 3.5% of the US population. Illegal immigratation from mexico is on the decline, and has been increasing from canada, europe, asia, and the Caribbean slightly. About 20% of all illegal immigrants are from those areas.

I'd rather not get stopped by the cops and get in custody because I forgot my ID card, because usually I don't drive and don't need it. I'd rather not give up that basic freedom, because I'm half mexican. And because of that, I could be targeted for an ID check. Do you know how idiotic that is? Being REQUIRED for no reason to make sure I'm a citizen, that just sounds like it'll be so eas to be abused.




So carry some ID ... big flipping deal. Illegal immigrants, for the most part, have difficulty communicating in English.  If there is one "marker" that causes them to stand out, it is this.  If you speak good English, are pulled over, I doubt you would be hauled in for questioning.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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OfflinePatlal
You ask too many questions
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Registered: 10/09/10
Posts: 44,797
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22004567 - 07/27/15 01:41 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Always carry your drivers license.

Also, America is at the point where people should just accept random ID checks for the time being. There is a problem to solve and it won't get solved if everybody says fuck off to everyone trying to solve it.


--------------------


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Invisiblespock
journeyman
Registered: 08/26/03
Posts: 1,165
Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: qman]
    #22004581 - 07/27/15 01:44 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Papers please nazi talk.

Peace
Spock


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Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Patlal]
    #22004589 - 07/27/15 01:46 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Always carry your drivers license.

Also, America is at the point where people should just accept random ID checks for the time being. There is a problem to solve and it won't get solved if everybody says fuck off to everyone trying to solve it.



slippery slope if I've ever seen one.


--------------------
Think for yourself, question authority


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Offlinepsilynut
aka Patchraper


Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 1,244
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22004591 - 07/27/15 01:46 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Shoot to kill and they will deport themselves.




    You might come off as mentally ill racist mass murder if you do that .  Plus they have have relatives  that will legally vote you out of office . Probably the main reason nothing happens with immigration .

Qman said:
 
Quote:

The habit of having proper documentation will become more normal for many people, if someone is a Citizens it shouldn't be a issue.



   
  Isn't this exactly what the nazis said  at the start of the holocaust ?

Quote:

So illegals use almost 8 TIMES in tax revenue than they contribute, they all need to be deported.



 
  Or rather than beating off to an impossible fantasy how about we target the employers who are hiring them . You can down to Home Depot by me and watch liscesed contractors pick up illegal workers . They aren't getting handjobs , they are paying them under the table to work wherever they are working , seems like an easier approach to me , at to least to living in a police state anyway .
  It will be cheaper , generate revenue through fines and best of all you dont have to fuck with my freedom to walk down the street without my I'm not Jew papers .


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Offlineqman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 2 hours, 53 minutes
Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: spock]
    #22004594 - 07/27/15 01:47 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

spock said:
Papers please nazi talk.

Peace
Spock




Stop exaggerating, it doesn't help anything at all. Is requiring an ID at the airport Nazism? Or what about going to a bar?  We all need passports to enter another country, it's called being responsible.


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: qman]
    #22004601 - 07/27/15 01:49 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks for the link.  I never considered what an impact the children of illegal immigrants were having.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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OfflinePatlal
You ask too many questions
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/09/10
Posts: 44,797
Loc: Ottawa Flag
Last seen: 7 hours, 58 minutes
Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: psyconaught]
    #22004610 - 07/27/15 01:51 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
Always carry your drivers license.

Also, America is at the point where people should just accept random ID checks for the time being. There is a problem to solve and it won't get solved if everybody says fuck off to everyone trying to solve it.



slippery slope if I've ever seen one.




Nah. Just leave it at that. No more.

Everybody always assume that giving just little will lead to the apocalypse. It's never the case.


--------------------


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: psyconaught]
    #22004613 - 07/27/15 01:51 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
Always carry your drivers license.

Also, America is at the point where people should just accept random ID checks for the time being. There is a problem to solve and it won't get solved if everybody says fuck off to everyone trying to solve it.



slippery slope if I've ever seen one.




WE show ID constantly ... buying things, airports, hotels ... it's part of the modern era.  That's quite a bit different than what the Nazi's were doing and we have due process for anyone snagged for ID checks.  America has one of the best, fairest and most reliable judicial systems on the planet. 

Given the problem with illegal immigration, drug trafficking and gang violence, it is not unreasonable for the police to ask for ID ... I know it wouldn't bother me in the least.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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Offlineqman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 2 hours, 53 minutes
Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: psilynut]
    #22004618 - 07/27/15 01:53 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

psilynut said:
Quote:

Shoot to kill and they will deport themselves.




    You might come off as mentally ill racist mass murder if you do that .  Plus they have have relatives  that will legally vote you out of office . Probably the main reason nothing happens with immigration .

Qman said:
 
Quote:

The habit of having proper documentation will become more normal for many people, if someone is a Citizens it shouldn't be a issue.



   
  Isn't this exactly what the nazis said  at the start of the holocaust ?

Quote:

So illegals use almost 8 TIMES in tax revenue than they contribute, they all need to be deported.



 
  Or rather than beating off to an impossible fantasy how about we target the employers who are hiring them . You can down to Home Depot by me and watch liscesed contractors pick up illegal workers . They aren't getting handjobs , they are paying them under the table to work wherever they are working , seems like an easier approach to me , at to least to living in a police state anyway .
  It will be cheaper , generate revenue through fines and best of all you dont have to fuck with my freedom to walk down the street without my I'm not Jew papers .




It has NOTHING to do with Nazism, what the fuck is wrong with you guys?  We have been invaded by illegals and there's a process that can fix it, if you're a US citizen it won't effect you at all. We live in a modern society, carrying a valid ID is required for many things, deal with it.

I already said US citizens don't have any issue targeting employers that hire illegals, but guess what?  When there's no illegals to hire that also makes the problem go away!!


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