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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #21952262 - 07/16/15 02:31 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

KO, that is all true and an indictment of our present system more so than of trump. You can't fault someone for playing by the rules so change the rules. I think govt corruption is our main problem. If you think the other candidates aren't gaming the system as much as they can you haven't been paying attention. Hitlery makes trump look like a boy scout.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21952281 - 07/16/15 02:37 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

A good reason to move towards democratic socialism.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21952333 - 07/16/15 02:55 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
KO, that is all true and an indictment of our present system more so than of trump. You can't fault someone for playing by the rules so change the rules. I think govt corruption is our main problem. If you think the other candidates aren't gaming the system as much as they can you haven't been paying attention. Hitlery makes trump look like a boy scout.




S - Please don't interpret my criticism of Trump as an endorsement of Hillary as I see the Clintons, in general as a giant pay for play operation that exploits the system in ways that we can only imagine. 

Having said that, I think there are character issues that come into play as some in business simply don't take the risks or go to the lengths to exploit the system as others do. I think it would be an over simplification to say that EVERYONE in politics of business goes to the ethical and legal extremes that some of the more obvious players do.  I am not naive about politics and know that no one gets to the presidency without fully engaging in the game, but I don't think all the candidates come into the race with the same level of ethical looseness as others do. 

In Trumps Art of the Deal, which I read years ago, He brags at some length about the deception and blatant dishonest staging he would do to convince banks his projects were worth financing.  Hiring people to look busy on a construction site where absolutely nothing was going on.  Digging and filling holes for no reason to create the illusion of busy-ness. 

At any rate, I find his style repulsive but recognize his skill at working our system to exploit profit and publicity.  I don't find his traits to be particularly desirable in terms of a president but do admit, he's tapping into voter frustration in a way that is, at least for the moment, very effective. 

My guess is the Bush machine has already uncovered game ending dirt on The Donald and they'll lower the boom on him with an offer he can't refuse soon.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


Edited by KauaiOrca (07/16/15 02:55 PM)


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #21952474 - 07/16/15 03:27 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

So you want jeb to win? He seems less sleazy than hitlery but equally against the public. I like rand but he seems to have little chance.

I would take trump over h and over jeb too.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21952522 - 07/16/15 03:41 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
>Are you telling me that you don't think business owners can play the legal system for financial gain?

Are you saying you don't realize the whole purpose of business is to make a profit? I knew you were a little dizzy but I thought you at least knew that. If its legal then its proper. What is not proper is taking bribes for govt favors as hitlery does.




If a business goes bankrupt the business doesn't profit, but the businessman very well might.
Stop saying 'you're dizzy'. You use ad hominems and strawmen more than anyone I've ever met.
So, you feel the bribe taker is at fault, but the briber does not share any guilt? I would have to sincerely disagree.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21952530 - 07/16/15 03:43 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
KO, that is all true and an indictment of our present system more so than of trump. You can't fault someone for playing by the rules so change the rules. I think govt corruption is our main problem. If you think the other candidates aren't gaming the system as much as they can you haven't been paying attention. Hitlery makes trump look like a boy scout.




Bernie Sanders isn't 'gaming the system'. He's the only one who isn't, in fact.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21952557 - 07/16/15 03:47 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

>If a business goes bankrupt the business doesn't profit, but the businessman very well might.

How does he do that?

>Stop saying 'you're dizzy'

When you fault business for making a profit, what do you want to be called?

>So, you feel the bribe taker is at fault, but the briber does not share any guilt? I would have to sincerely disagree

Where did I say that? Isn't that what you call a strawman?

>Bernie Sanders isn't 'gaming the system'

Perhaps, until the dirt comes out.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21952634 - 07/16/15 04:03 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
>Are you telling me that you don't think business owners can play the legal system for financial gain?

Are you saying you don't realize the whole purpose of business is to make a profit? I knew you were a little dizzy but I thought you at least knew that. If its legal then its proper. What is not proper is taking bribes for govt favors as hitlery does.




Legal bribery is still bribery. That's where you said it, and it's not a strawman.

A business going bankrupt is not the same as a businessman going bankrupt. If I overextend my business in order to make immediate profits, which I pay myself as wages from that business, and then bankrupt it, my bank account will not be cleared. I believe this is what Trump has done, but I am not entirely certain.

Regardless, as I have said, he is either a shitty businessman, or a cheat. Bankruptcy is dodging debt, plain and simple.

Quote:

When you fault business for making a profit, what do you want to be called?



That's hardly what I've done. Yet another strawman, whether or not you realize it. If a business goes bankrupt it isn't making a profit.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21952650 - 07/16/15 04:07 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

>Legal bribery is still bribery. That's where you said it, and it's not a strawman.

You don't want to be called dizzy but if you can read you will see I was defending business making a profit. I never defended bribery.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21952651 - 07/16/15 04:08 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
>If a business goes bankrupt the business doesn't profit, but the businessman very well might.

How does he do that?

Happens every single day in business.  Profits are extracted and distributed to shareholders and execs and then shortly afterward, problems happen and all kinds of creative financial engineering schemes, usually involving more debt are built so that more leverage can eventually be extracted.  Bankruptcy is a form of protection so that debts can be paid off at some point … once the profits are distributed to individuals, it is difficult to claw them back.  Sometimes it happens, but not often. 

Generally, the profits have been EXTRACTED before the bankruptcy and very well may have been a contributing factor to the financial problems in the first place.  The creativity that execs use when it comes to extracting leveraged payouts is beyond amazing.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #21952664 - 07/16/15 04:13 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

They have to invest in the first place, if they made some profits and then went under, so what? Do you have any idea what it costs to start a major business? I highly doubt trump got back all of what he put into those that went under. Zap was crowing about him losing money on a casino. Are you saying zap lied and trump really made a profit there too?


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21952682 - 07/16/15 04:21 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
They have to invest in the first place, if they made some profits and then went under, so what? Do you have any idea what it costs to start a major business? I highly doubt trump got back all of what he put into those that went under. Zap was crowing about him losing money on a casino. Are you saying zap lied and trump really made a profit there too?




It would take a busload of accountants to unravel the mysteries of Trump's financial dealings and entanglements. 

I am very aware of what it takes financially to get a business started, how leverage through the capital markets is generated and how personal profits are extracted through elaborate financial schemes. 

MOST profit taking when it comes to the REALLY BIG payouts that turn a person into a billionaire (For instance Zuckerberg) come from transaction events that convert huge amounts of debt and recently invested capital into personal assets.  Sure, profits matter over time and generate all kinds of income, but when you get to the multi national level, financial engineering is a big part of profit distribution.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21952693 - 07/16/15 04:24 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
They have to invest in the first place, if they made some profits and then went under, so what? Do you have any idea what it costs to start a major business? I highly doubt trump got back all of what he put into those that went under. Zap was crowing about him losing money on a casino. Are you saying zap lied and trump really made a profit there too?




I don't doubt it one bit. Large businesses are generally funded by investors, or loans from banks. If you extract a large profit on a business funded by a loan, and then the business files bankruptcy on the loan, the business is dismantled and sold off, but the businessman keeps his profits.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #21952698 - 07/16/15 04:26 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
They have to invest in the first place, if they made some profits and then went under, so what? Do you have any idea what it costs to start a major business? I highly doubt trump got back all of what he put into those that went under. Zap was crowing about him losing money on a casino. Are you saying zap lied and trump really made a profit there too?




It would take a busload of accountants to unravel the mysteries of Trump's financial dealings and entanglements. 

I am very aware of what it takes financially to get a business started, how leverage through the capital markets is generated and how personal profits are extracted through elaborate financial schemes. 

MOST profit taking when it comes to the REALLY BIG payouts that turn a person into a billionaire (For instance Zuckerberg) come from transaction events that convert huge amounts of debt and recently invested capital into personal assets.  Sure, profits matter over time and generate all kinds of income, but when you get to the multi national level, financial engineering is a big part of profit distribution.




Yeah... what he said... whatever the fuck that may be! lmao


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21952712 - 07/16/15 04:31 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
They have to invest in the first place, if they made some profits and then went under, so what? Do you have any idea what it costs to start a major business? I highly doubt trump got back all of what he put into those that went under. Zap was crowing about him losing money on a casino. Are you saying zap lied and trump really made a profit there too?




I don't doubt it one bit. Large businesses are generally funded by investors, or loans from banks. If you extract a large profit on a business funded by a loan, and then the business files bankruptcy on the loan, the business is dismantled and sold off, but the businessman keeps his profits.




100% correct.  Investors and Executives use the corporate entity to creatively turn giant sums of debt and invested capital into personal assets.  That's the name of the game.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #21952828 - 07/16/15 04:56 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
They have to invest in the first place, if they made some profits and then went under, so what? Do you have any idea what it costs to start a major business? I highly doubt trump got back all of what he put into those that went under. Zap was crowing about him losing money on a casino. Are you saying zap lied and trump really made a profit there too?




I don't doubt it one bit. Large businesses are generally funded by investors, or loans from banks. If you extract a large profit on a business funded by a loan, and then the business files bankruptcy on the loan, the business is dismantled and sold off, but the businessman keeps his profits.




100% correct.  Investors and Executives use the corporate entity to creatively turn giant sums of debt and invested capital into personal assets.  That's the name of the game.




Is there some sort of legal ramification for doing something like this if it is blatant?


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21952840 - 07/16/15 04:59 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

No.  Our bankruptcy laws are idiotic


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21952860 - 07/16/15 05:04 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

>If you extract a large profit on a business funded by a loan, and then the business files bankruptcy on the loan,

If they are making large profits then they do not go bankrupt.

>Yeah... what he said... whatever the fuck that may be!


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21952935 - 07/16/15 05:21 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:

Is there some sort of legal ramification for doing something like this if it is blatant?




Yes both civil and criminal.  It's very difficult and expensive, however, to "claw back" compensation from a corporation to an individual.  Corporations are designed to protect their owners and executives legally from this and many other kinds of lawsuits and criminal proceedings.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21952969 - 07/16/15 05:29 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
No.  Our bankruptcy laws are idiotic




So that's Trump's fault I suppose?


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