Home | Community | Message Board


Edabea
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Kraken Kratom Shop: Red Vein Kratom

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4  [ show all ]
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Information and Politics
    #2189346 - 12/19/03 01:32 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Okay, my #1 gripe with politics in general is one of information.

We each have VERY LITTLE information on many political issues and situations, yet how many of us form these rock-solid opinions anyways?

Looking back through my history books, I try to think about what CNN would show it's viewers if CNN were around back then. Would Mao's plan against the Nationalists have worked if he shared all of his information with CNN?
What about other political moves?

I'm pretty sure Machiavelli knew the importance of not showing off your cards until the right moment.

If we don't know what cards the players of the "big game" are holding, how can we claim to have "the answer" to anything?

To summarize my view on politics:
Shut your fucking pie hole until you have all the cards in view AND/OR be constantly aware of the fact that you don't know who's holding what.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineFrog
Warrior
Female User Gallery

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
Re: Information and Politics [Re: Sclorch]
    #2189353 - 12/19/03 01:42 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

I don't like politics. I become educated in order to vote in every election, but I am really not that interested in politics. I pick up pieces of what's going on here and there. I don't watch T.V. I don't read the newspapers. I suppose I'm ignorant, but I just don't like that stuff.

Besides, if I did have an opinion about something going on in the world of politics, I'd probably be wrong.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Information and Politics [Re: Sclorch]
    #2189357 - 12/19/03 01:48 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

yet how many of us form these rock-solid opinions anyways?

there are those in politics driven by ideology.
there are the sheep who follow those idealogues.
and a precious few driven by facts and logic and a broad base of information.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Information and Politics [Re: Sclorch]
    #2189360 - 12/19/03 01:49 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

I try my hardest to keep my opinions flexible. I have changed my mind on a few issues, such as affirmative action and gun control, but even with those, there is a chance that I could be convinced to go back to my previous position. I don't claim to have all the answers, nor have I ever done so.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
Re: Information and Politics [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2189362 - 12/19/03 01:50 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Which is why direct Democracy is such a bad idea.

pinky


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Information and Politics [Re: Phred]
    #2189365 - 12/19/03 01:51 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

pinky: Which is why direct Democracy is such a bad idea.

Yeah... because then we can't even kick anyone out for being a fucker!


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Information and Politics [Re: Phred]
    #2189369 - 12/19/03 01:53 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

People are idiots, and people in office are just as stupid as the general public. To me, direct democracy or representative democracy makes no difference. Same shit, different idiots.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Information and Politics [Re: silversoul7]
    #2189376 - 12/19/03 02:00 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

To me, direct democracy or representative democracy makes no difference. Same shit, different idiots.

No... the masses don't learn when they're directly responsible.
Unfortunately, the scapegoat is a necessary tool for teaching large groups of idiots what NOT to do.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Information and Politics [Re: Phred]
    #2189378 - 12/19/03 02:01 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Which is why direct Democracy is such a bad idea

my thoughts exactly. I'll go furthur and say that programs like Rock the Vote are contrary to the way our limited democracy was meant to function.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Information and Politics [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2189388 - 12/19/03 02:10 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Hmm...
I've thought that here and there; off and on.

Do we really want to have as many uneducated drones just voting for whoever?
Isn't voting supposed to be an ACTIVE process where we do at least a little research before voting for Mr. Smilesalot?


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 7 months, 11 days
Re: Information and Politics [Re: Phred]
    #2189655 - 12/19/03 06:24 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Infidel god said:

Quote:

there are those in politics driven by ideology.
there are the sheep who follow those idealogues.
and a precious few driven by facts and logic and a broad base of information.






Pinksharkmark said:

Quote:

Which is why direct Democracy is such a bad idea.




I think you are wrong about that. I believe the reason we have the groups infidel described is due to the political system we are currently using rather than some intrinsic quality of human beings. In a system based around issues rather than personalities, where you have a chance to give your opinion on many things, people may well become more interested and informed on political matters. It wouldnt happen overnight but whatever did happen there would definitely be a change in the political habits of people in general.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Information and Politics [Re: Sclorch]
    #2190042 - 12/19/03 10:28 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

We each have VERY LITTLE information on many political issues and situations, yet how many of us form these rock-solid opinions anyways?

What situations are you referring to? Take Iraq for example - If Bush declares war by using lies to create a sense of urgency then I think it's fair enough to be rock-solid in considering that wrong. Don't you?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,244
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Information and Politics [Re: Xlea321]
    #2190184 - 12/19/03 11:31 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

So the PROOF he lied has been found? Perhaps you could link us to it.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Information and Politics [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2190578 - 12/19/03 01:30 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Don't you ever get tired of this?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Information and Politics [Re: Xlea321]
    #2190646 - 12/19/03 01:45 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Sclorch: We each have VERY LITTLE information on many political issues and situations, yet how many of us form these rock-solid opinions anyways?
Alex: What situations are you referring to? Take Iraq for example - If Bush declares war by using lies to create a sense of urgency then I think it's fair enough to be rock-solid in considering that wrong. Don't you?

There was no sense of urgency created in me, but that's beside the point.

It's obvious that the current administration values the creation of rational nation states over sovereignty (did you really think this was about oil?). This is an ideology for sure.
However, there is the possibility that such a maneuver is, in fact, good for the Middle East. I'm not saying that the ends justify the means (the current adminstration seems to think so though)... I'm merely pointing out that we don't have the best seats in the house.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,244
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Information and Politics [Re: Xlea321]
    #2190689 - 12/19/03 01:55 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

So in other words, you have no proof.

If you do, show it for that's the only way I'll stop asking when you make an unprovable assertion.

Of course, you could just stop making them.  :lol:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: Information and Politics [Re: Sclorch]
    #2190765 - 12/19/03 02:11 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Great thread!

Do we really want to have as many uneducated drones just voting for whoever?
Isn't voting supposed to be an ACTIVE process where we do at least a little research before voting for Mr. Smilesalot?


Jesus H. Christ on a popcycle stick!

This is exactly what we have and exactly why this country is fucked to hell and gone.

I know about two people that thoroughly examine every issue and candidate before they enter the poll booth besides myself. And neither of them post here.

And if anyone claims they do I would like them to list every issue and candidate they voted for last month.

The masses run this country in combination with a bunch of power-hungry liars.

Is there any reason why it shouldn't be fucked up?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Information and Politics [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2190860 - 12/19/03 02:49 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

So in other words, you have no proof.

You mean apart from the complete failure to find any after a 9 month search with offers of millions of dollars on the table to any worker or scientist involved in making them or who  who can lead the americans to a WMD stash?  :lol:

To anyone not totally devoted to George Bush that's proof well beyond reasonable doubt. Certainly experts like Hans Blix are convinced.

Can you provide any counter evidence to suggest Bush wasn't lying?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,244
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Information and Politics [Re: Xlea321]
    #2190886 - 12/19/03 02:58 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

So we're back to your "since they haven't found any they must not exist" argument?

It gets weaker each time. That is in no-way PROOF of anything. They may (and it does seem more likely as time goes by) not exist. However, the fact they haven't, or can't, find any is not PROOF of anything other than they haven't found any.

Nor is your insistence that Bush lied PROOF he did so. I have no doubt you'd love it if you were some almighty being who's mere word is considered PROOF of whatever you claim. Get over that because it isn't going to happen.


So I'll ask yet again...... where is the PROOF Bush lied?

And as a further matter.... I know no-one devoted to Bush, just to the truth.

Seems you were absent the day they taught what truth and proof means.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (12/19/03 03:01 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Information and Politics [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2190913 - 12/19/03 03:05 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

since they haven't found any they must not exist"

Or anyone who worked on producing them. Or anyone who hid them.

Yep, that's proof well beyond reasonable doubt. No matter how hard you find it to accept.

However, the fact they haven't, or can't, find any is not PROOF of anything other than they haven't found any.

But they WOULD have found someone who worked on them, or hid them. Or do you believe the weapons appeared in a puff of smoke one day and then hid themselves?

Seems you were absent the day they taught what truth and proof means.

Can you try and stick to a point instead of flaming every post? It's really tiresome.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,244
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Information and Politics [Re: Xlea321]
    #2190933 - 12/19/03 03:13 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

So you have no proof other than you say so.

And it wasn't a flame. Merely an accurate observation.

You remind me of the "boy who cried wolf".


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Information and Politics [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2190939 - 12/19/03 03:16 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Except no-one can find the weapons, anyone who worked on them or anyone who hid them.

Could you address these points?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,244
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Information and Politics [Re: Xlea321]
    #2190950 - 12/19/03 03:21 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

There is nothing to address. Those things are not PROOF.

As I said earlier, it seems more likely there are no weapons. However, calling that PROOF is dishonest.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Information and Politics [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2190958 - 12/19/03 03:28 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

What "proof" are you looking for exactly? To dig up the entire surface of Iraq to the earths core? (Ah..but what if he moved them to Syria! It wouldn't be proof unless we dug up Syria to the earths core...but what if he moved them to North Korea in the dead of night.. :lol:)

No weapons can be found, no-one can be found who worked on them and no-one can be found who hid them. What more "proof" do you need exactly?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,244
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Information and Politics [Re: Xlea321]
    #2190972 - 12/19/03 03:35 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Alpo, there may never be PROOF.

The fact that they haven't or can't find them certainly isn't PROOF.

I guess he should have brought the UN in to witness the alleged destruction. Think of all the trouble that would have saved.  :wink:

So unless you can get the writers of dictionaries to agree with your "definition" of proof, I suggest you take the time to learn the current definition. While you're looking, take an extra minute to look up the definition of lie. Then when you say "Bush lied", you'll at least be aware you're not being "accurate".  :kiss:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Information and Politics [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2190980 - 12/19/03 03:43 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Why are you still ducking the fact that not only can the weapons not be found, no-one can be found who worked on them or hid them?

I repeat, exactly what furthur "proof" are you looking for?

Bush said there were WMD in Iraq. There arn't. Here's the definition of a lie:

1 : to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive
2 : to create a false or misleading impression

Then when you say "Bush lied", you'll at least be aware you're not being "accurate".

Could you point out exactly where I am not being accurate in saying Bush lied.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,244
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Information and Politics [Re: Xlea321]
    #2191001 - 12/19/03 04:02 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I repeat, exactly what furthur "proof" are you looking for?



And I'll repeat.... you can't prove something doesn't exist. There cannot be proof of non-existence.


Quote:

Could you point out exactly where I am not being accurate in saying Bush lied.




1. Prove he said it with the "intent to deceive".
2. Prove he said it to " create a false or misleading impression "

In other words, prove he didn't believe what he said. If you can do that you'll have proved he lied. No-one has been able to do so. How about you try?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
Re: Information and Politics [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2191065 - 12/19/03 04:37 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

I guess our peaceful hiatus has ended. Oh well, it was fun while it lasted.

I don't want to have to lock this thread because there is some good stuff actually related to the topic of the thread going on.

Alex, if you and LDS wish to rehash for the seventy-sixth time the existence or non-existence of WMDs, I ask you (or LDS) to either start another thread or bump one of the numerous older ones.

Thank you.

pinky


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
Re: Information and Politics [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2191075 - 12/19/03 04:44 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

infidelGOD writes:

my thoughts exactly. I'll go furthur and say that programs like Rock the Vote are contrary to the way our limited democracy was meant to function.

EchoVortex proposed what I think is a truly excellent qualifier for the voting process in a post a few months back. If the search function was up and running I'd quote it in its entirety, but for now I'll try to paraphrase it as accurately as I can:

His proposal was that in order to have your name appear on the voting list, you must pass the same test given to all immigrants becoming citizens. The point being that if your knowledge of the way government works in the US is too limited to pass this test, you have no business voting.

I believe in principle this is one of the best ideas I've come across yet, but I don't know how practical it would be to implement it.

pinky


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 23,580
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 4 hours, 34 minutes
Re: Information and Politics [Re: Sclorch]
    #2191082 - 12/19/03 04:47 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

how many people you reckon still live in a world without CNN?

Or television.

Or newspapers


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 23,580
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 4 hours, 34 minutes
Re: Information and Politics [Re: Phred]
    #2191086 - 12/19/03 04:48 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

How about a literacy test!

Oh, oops.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Information and Politics [Re: Phred]
    #2192306 - 12/20/03 02:48 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

I guess our peaceful hiatus has ended. Oh well, it was fun while it lasted.

These flames were all taken from just ONE thread during the "peaceful hiatus" you refer to:

Perhaps it is time for your to re-examine the premises upon which your fantasy world is built.

you are either too blind, too ignorant or too self-deluded to see it.

I see you are still unable to grasp the concept. It's a pity that your are so cognitively challenged.

Good little drone.

Try to think rationally

dodges, equivocations, and justifications based on abstractions that only exist in your mind.


This guy likes to hear himself type.

I see you have him stunned into silence. That is always a sign of victory.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
Re: Information and Politics [Re: Xlea321]
    #2192426 - 12/20/03 05:47 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

So does this mean you and LDS will discuss the WMD issue in a separate thread? If so, thank you.

pinky


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrobih
rap-cord
Registered: 11/03/98
Posts: 2,015
Loc: cave
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Information and Politics [Re: Sclorch]
    #2195195 - 12/22/03 06:46 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Wow. Cool topic :cool:

Quote:

Sclorch said:
We each have VERY LITTLE information on many political issues and situations, yet how many of us form these rock-solid opinions anyways?


Right.
Quote:

Looking back through my history books, I try to think about what CNN would show it's viewers if CNN were around back then.  Would Mao's plan against the Nationalists have worked if he shared all of his information with CNN?
What about other political moves?


Wrong. Common good of the nation is one. When you work for the common good, transparent moves are great cause you gain the full legitimacy through that.
Quote:

I'm pretty sure Machiavelli knew the importance of not showing off your cards until the right moment.


You missunderastand the context of the Machiavelli thought. He was turned toward the oligarchical system that was only possible political system before the internet. In that system, you have to be popular among those who rule. And they are oposing people. So, you have to balance those two things. In the E-democracy, there are only people who rule. So, you do not have to balnce. You have to work for the common good and transperence is your interest.
[qutoe]If we don't know what cards the players of the "big game" are holding, how can we claim to have "the answer" to anything?[/qutoe] You can not know everything. Never. But, black box principle has allways been effective way of realising whats behind the curtain.
Quote:

To summarize my view on politics:
Shut your fucking pie hole until you have all the cards in view AND/OR be constantly aware of the fact that you don't know who's holding what.


Wrong. Everybody is zoon politicon. You can not denide it.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrobih
rap-cord
Registered: 11/03/98
Posts: 2,015
Loc: cave
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Information and Politics [Re: Phred]
    #2195197 - 12/22/03 06:49 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
Which is why direct Democracy is such a bad idea.


This opinion is based on easy thinking. It is completely wrong though. Anyway, direct democracy means direct participation in politics. Not direct voting.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrobih
rap-cord
Registered: 11/03/98
Posts: 2,015
Loc: cave
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Information and Politics [Re: silversoul7]
    #2195200 - 12/22/03 06:56 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
People are idiots, and people in office are just as stupid as the general public. To me, direct democracy or representative democracy makes no difference. Same shit, different idiots.


No. This system is non transparent system. Nobody is responsible for nothing. But somebody is responsible for world going down. In every single context. Legitimacy of US governemnt was never this low. Anyway, you risk chaos if you do not change the political system on time. And that system is E-democracy, off course.

BTW, people such as Machiavelli that Schlorch mentioned, realised that people are the best governors. Though it was not practically possible before.

I will mention one idea you like to oversee. People do not want to act against themselves. People have a common sense. That is enough. I can mention many historical events when mob decided something, but those who where appreciated among people would explain to them it is not good for them. So, the people who created mob would do as smarter people said.

Anyway, when you are responsible, you do not mess as you mess now, when you FIRTLY do not know what is a really happening. And you do not know it casue oligarchy keeps its power by holding the relevant political informations. So, you can not decide by sense, cause you do not know what is happening.

You are manipulated. In true democracy, it is not possible. Cause it is the interest of political elite, to make you properly informed.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrobih
rap-cord
Registered: 11/03/98
Posts: 2,015
Loc: cave
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Information and Politics [Re: Sclorch]
    #2195202 - 12/22/03 07:00 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Sclorch said:
No... the masses don't learn when they're directly responsible.
Unfortunately, the scapegoat is a necessary tool for teaching large groups of idiots what NOT to do.


I mentiond it allready. Anyway, I have to notice that masses are created od many individuals. Direct democracy is based on the individual, not masses. Today system is based on manipulated masses. And if you try a little bit harder, you will understand how big difference is among these two system.

Hint. Political elite, if it is not democratical* elite is against the people. Cause it keeps its power keeping it from the peope. In true democracy, polical elite is based on the best people of the population, that anable everybody the best progress.

* I mean real democrats, not so called demcrats.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: Information and Politics [Re: Crobih]
    #2195208 - 12/22/03 07:09 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Crobih said:
Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
Which is why direct Democracy is such a bad idea.


This opinion is based on easy thinking. It is completely wrong though. Anyway, direct democracy means direct participation in politics. Not direct voting.




"Of the above mentioned forms, the perversions are as follows: of royalty, tyranny; of aristocracy, oligarchy; of constitutional government, democracy. For tyranny is a kind of monarchy which has in view the interest of the monarch only; oligarchy has in view the interest of the wealthy; democracy, of the needy; none of them the common good of all.

"When the citizens at large administer the state for the common interest, the government is called by the generic name of constitutional government. And there is reason for use of this language. One man or a few may excel in virtue; but of virtue there are many kinds. As the number of rulers increases it becomes exceedingly difficult for them to attain perfection in every kind, though they may in military virtue, for this is found in the masses. Hence, in a constitutional government the fighting men have the supreme power, and those who possess arms are citizens."

Aristotle


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrobih
rap-cord
Registered: 11/03/98
Posts: 2,015
Loc: cave
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Information and Politics [Re: ]
    #2195672 - 12/22/03 12:42 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mr_Mushrooms said:
"Of the above mentioned forms, the perversions are as follows: of royalty, tyranny; of aristocracy, oligarchy; of constitutional government, democracy. For tyranny is a kind of monarchy which has in view the interest of the monarch only; oligarchy has in view the interest of the wealthy; democracy, of the needy; none of them the common good of all.


Big names, huh? :smile:

First. I have to notice that true democracy is an ideal that never happened to its perfect. Anyway, this is an interesting opinion. And I agree with that. Partially. Cause Common good is a sum of every single good we have. If there is a monarchy, the only good that is relevant is one good of monarch. Oligarchy (we live in oligarchy!) has another relevant good of several people. Good of people is excatly common good.
Quote:

"When the citizens at large administer the state for the common interest, the government is called by the generic name of constitutional government. And there is reason for use of this language. One man or a few may excel in virtue; but of virtue there are many kinds. As the number of rulers increases it becomes exceedingly difficult for them to attain perfection in every kind, though they may in military virtue, for this is found in the masses. Hence, in a constitutional government the fighting men have the supreme power, and those who possess arms are citizens."

Aristotle


Democracy does not mean that all people ( It does not have to be 50%, Russoueu (whatever) mentioned interesting majority of 7/8 or more) decide about everything. They are top arbitar. The arbitar that is asked when some problem happenes. When those who represent the interest of the people have to show their results.

You do not ask monarch, but people. People who own full legitimacy, the legitimacy that can not be removed from the people. Though, you can remove legitimacy from the monarch, if people decide to do so.

Before interent it was imposible to do a synergy of people. so every system was based on oligarchical principle that would create top governor who would became against the people just a few days it got elected.

So, people are allways top arbitar of any government. That is the reason why all systems tends for real democracy. And now, we have to decide, cause people decide willing it or not, to get them informed, to open politics to them, or to keep them manipulating.

I think the answer is pretty one :smile:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 7 months, 11 days
Re: Information and Politics [Re: Sclorch]
    #2196480 - 12/22/03 07:35 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

did you really think this was about oil?




Do you really think it wasnt?? So the Iraq war was about "the creation of rational nation states over sovereignty "??

Sorry bud but my money's with the oil.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 7 months, 11 days
Re: Information and Politics [Re: Phred]
    #2196487 - 12/22/03 07:41 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

I think Echo Vortex's idea is excellent! You could also apply this to a direct democracy system to try and eliminate the so called "mob rule" element.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 7 months, 11 days
Re: Information and Politics [Re: Crobih]
    #2196524 - 12/22/03 07:59 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I will mention one idea you like to oversee. People do not want to act against themselves. People have a common sense.




I totally agree. Whenever you have a minority controlling a majority you will have exploitation. It seems, at this time, to be an unescapable fact of human nature. However, when a majority controls the majority it is much more likely that people will arrive at decisions which actually do benefit the majority.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,244
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Information and Politics [Re: GazzBut]
    #2197202 - 12/23/03 04:49 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Your faith in human nature, while completely and totally laughable, is touching.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 7 months, 11 days
Re: Information and Politics [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2197289 - 12/23/03 06:55 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

If you look at it carefully all I am saying is people will go for the option that benefits themselves most. Hardly an outrageously hopeful assesment of human nature.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrobih
rap-cord
Registered: 11/03/98
Posts: 2,015
Loc: cave
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Information and Politics [Re: GazzBut]
    #2197306 - 12/23/03 07:19 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

I got to say something bad about Echo Vortexs idea. I am looking through the eyes of the new political order, E-democracy. Well, if we talk about how to dig canals, we wont ask political scientist, but someone who is involved in digging canals.

Politics is considering all aspects of human life. If you make test that is concerned about some things, you miss everything else. And you lose everything else. And you can not make a perfect test. Thouh, it is not neccessary. Cause as I said, people have a common sense. It is not a suppose thing, but thing that has is a fact.

Common sense keeps this group coexisting.

About majority controling majority, I totally agree! Though it is the idea that is theoretically perfect and internet makes it become real!

luvdemshrooms, you think you are somethng special? :laugh:


Edited by Crobih (12/23/03 07:23 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,244
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Information and Politics [Re: GazzBut]
    #2197316 - 12/23/03 07:32 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Actually your last two posts are in opposition to one another.

First you say.....
"However, when a majority controls the majority it is much more likely that people will arrive at decisions which actually do benefit the majority. "


Then you say....
"If you look at it carefully all I am saying is people will go for the option that benefits themselves most."

So which is it? Will people make decisions that benefit the majority or that benefit themselves?

Personally, I believe the latter.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,244
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Information and Politics [Re: Crobih]
    #2197318 - 12/23/03 07:34 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms, you think you are somethng special? 



I know I'm something special.

My mommy told me so.  :kiss:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrobih
rap-cord
Registered: 11/03/98
Posts: 2,015
Loc: cave
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Information and Politics [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2197323 - 12/23/03 07:37 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

We all have mommies you know? :laugh:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrobih
rap-cord
Registered: 11/03/98
Posts: 2,015
Loc: cave
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Information and Politics [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2197328 - 12/23/03 07:40 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Btw, themselves is majority.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,244
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Information and Politics [Re: Crobih]
    #2197331 - 12/23/03 07:43 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

No, sorry. Voting for something that benefits yourself is the more common human reaction. Voting for something that benefits the majority is much more unlikely.

People, IMO, more often have their own interests at heart.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is both an optimist and naive.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrobih
rap-cord
Registered: 11/03/98
Posts: 2,015
Loc: cave
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Information and Politics [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2197341 - 12/23/03 07:49 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

You miss the point. when is the majoritiy the one who rules, than majority decides what is in the interest of majority. Majority can rule only in democracy.

If you still miss the point, let me ask how do you imagine the idea that one who naturaly presents his own interests goes against the will of the majority in democracy?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,244
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Information and Politics [Re: Crobih]
    #2197346 - 12/23/03 07:54 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

You've made no point to get.

For example.... if the majority supports in thheory raising taxes by 300 percent while sitting around talking about it, how many do you think will actually vote to do so.

People vote first and foremost for what benefits themselves. What benefits themselves does not always benefit the majority.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: Information and Politics [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2197354 - 12/23/03 07:58 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Those are difficult points to misunderstand. I think you need to try harder.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,244
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Information and Politics [Re: ]
    #2197399 - 12/23/03 08:30 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

I guess I could wack my head on the wall and the I could misunderstand even better.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 7 months, 11 days
Re: Information and Politics [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2197401 - 12/23/03 08:30 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Actually your last two posts are in opposition to one another.






No they are not. I am simply saying that a majority of people will not vote for things which will only benefit a minority of people. They will vote for things which benefit the most people.
Im not saying direct democracy is perfect anyway. All I am saying is that we are living in the information age and we should be able to adapt to this situation to allow people to exert more influence over the society they live in. All we should be arguing about is the hows and whens of direct democracy. Not whether or not we should do it. Look around you bud, it will happen. Nothing stays the same.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,244
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Information and Politics [Re: GazzBut]
    #2197408 - 12/23/03 08:38 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

No matter how many times I re-read your posts, that's not what you said.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 7 months, 11 days
Re: Information and Politics [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2197465 - 12/23/03 09:24 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Try a bit harder Luvvie, its fairly straight forward.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,244
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Information and Politics [Re: GazzBut]
    #2197486 - 12/23/03 09:39 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

It doesn't say what you'd like it to say, no matter how many times you insist it does.

Either edit it to say what you mean or give it a rest.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrobih
rap-cord
Registered: 11/03/98
Posts: 2,015
Loc: cave
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Information and Politics [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2197631 - 12/23/03 11:07 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
You've made no point to get.

For example.... if the majority supports in thheory raising taxes by 300 percent while sitting around talking about it, how many do you think will actually vote to do so.

People vote first and foremost for what benefits themselves. What benefits themselves does not always benefit the majority.


If majority does not support it, than it will not happen. If majority suport it, it is because it is an interest of majority.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,244
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Information and Politics [Re: Crobih]
    #2197677 - 12/23/03 11:37 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

I'm stunned anyone could be so naive.

If a majority of Americans supports something, but a majority of our representatives do not..... who do you think is going to win?

Let's use the last few pay raises the lawmakers voted in for themselves. Do you honestly believe that the majority of Americans were in support of that?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 7 months, 11 days
Re: Information and Politics [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2197869 - 12/23/03 01:38 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Let's use the last few pay raises the lawmakers voted in for themselves. Do you honestly believe that the majority of Americans were in support of that?




Luvdem you really arent getting this are you??!


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,244
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Information and Politics [Re: GazzBut]
    #2197880 - 12/23/03 01:41 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

It seems far more so than you. But no surprise there.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrobih
rap-cord
Registered: 11/03/98
Posts: 2,015
Loc: cave
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Information and Politics [Re: GazzBut]
    #2198391 - 12/23/03 06:01 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

It seems luvdem is screwing us around :laugh:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 7 months, 11 days
Re: Information and Politics [Re: Crobih]
    #2199070 - 12/24/03 02:05 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

He's just a little bit slow...!


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4  [ show all ]

Kraken Kratom Shop: Red Vein Kratom

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* a more informative political poll Kid_Orgo 474 3 09/30/03 08:53 PM
by Anonymous
* Democracy is an illusion and the media is NOT LIBERAL.
( 1 2 3 all )
havatampa 3,612 48 10/15/03 04:32 PM
by Crobih
* Pathway to the internet democracy Crobih 1,145 10 03/12/04 11:02 AM
by Crobih
* operation democracy...changing the right wing way of life starptv23 666 2 03/25/05 01:48 PM
by zappaisgod
* Government Information Awareness Edame 541 1 07/13/03 06:04 PM
by Crobih
* Faking It - A Brief Textbook Of American Democracy Evolving 774 1 01/20/04 11:43 AM
by Annapurna1
* Democracy Is Not Freedom
( 1 2 all )
Ancalagon 2,791 27 02/09/05 08:31 PM
by RandalFlagg
* The new era of politics
( 1 2 3 all )
Crobih 3,325 44 11/15/12 10:41 AM
by Mind Transcribing

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
3,738 topic views. 1 members, 1 guests and 4 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Print Topic ]
Search this thread:
MushroomCube.com
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2020 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.086 seconds spending 0.009 seconds on 13 queries.