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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,244
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Information and Politics [Re: Xlea321]
    #2190933 - 12/19/03 03:13 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

So you have no proof other than you say so.

And it wasn't a flame. Merely an accurate observation.

You remind me of the "boy who cried wolf".


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Information and Politics [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2190939 - 12/19/03 03:16 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Except no-one can find the weapons, anyone who worked on them or anyone who hid them.

Could you address these points?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,244
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Information and Politics [Re: Xlea321]
    #2190950 - 12/19/03 03:21 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

There is nothing to address. Those things are not PROOF.

As I said earlier, it seems more likely there are no weapons. However, calling that PROOF is dishonest.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Information and Politics [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2190958 - 12/19/03 03:28 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

What "proof" are you looking for exactly? To dig up the entire surface of Iraq to the earths core? (Ah..but what if he moved them to Syria! It wouldn't be proof unless we dug up Syria to the earths core...but what if he moved them to North Korea in the dead of night.. :lol:)

No weapons can be found, no-one can be found who worked on them and no-one can be found who hid them. What more "proof" do you need exactly?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,244
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Information and Politics [Re: Xlea321]
    #2190972 - 12/19/03 03:35 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Alpo, there may never be PROOF.

The fact that they haven't or can't find them certainly isn't PROOF.

I guess he should have brought the UN in to witness the alleged destruction. Think of all the trouble that would have saved.  :wink:

So unless you can get the writers of dictionaries to agree with your "definition" of proof, I suggest you take the time to learn the current definition. While you're looking, take an extra minute to look up the definition of lie. Then when you say "Bush lied", you'll at least be aware you're not being "accurate".  :kiss:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Information and Politics [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2190980 - 12/19/03 03:43 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Why are you still ducking the fact that not only can the weapons not be found, no-one can be found who worked on them or hid them?

I repeat, exactly what furthur "proof" are you looking for?

Bush said there were WMD in Iraq. There arn't. Here's the definition of a lie:

1 : to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive
2 : to create a false or misleading impression

Then when you say "Bush lied", you'll at least be aware you're not being "accurate".

Could you point out exactly where I am not being accurate in saying Bush lied.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,244
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Information and Politics [Re: Xlea321]
    #2191001 - 12/19/03 04:02 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I repeat, exactly what furthur "proof" are you looking for?



And I'll repeat.... you can't prove something doesn't exist. There cannot be proof of non-existence.


Quote:

Could you point out exactly where I am not being accurate in saying Bush lied.




1. Prove he said it with the "intent to deceive".
2. Prove he said it to " create a false or misleading impression "

In other words, prove he didn't believe what he said. If you can do that you'll have proved he lied. No-one has been able to do so. How about you try?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflinePhred
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Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: Information and Politics [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2191065 - 12/19/03 04:37 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

I guess our peaceful hiatus has ended. Oh well, it was fun while it lasted.

I don't want to have to lock this thread because there is some good stuff actually related to the topic of the thread going on.

Alex, if you and LDS wish to rehash for the seventy-sixth time the existence or non-existence of WMDs, I ask you (or LDS) to either start another thread or bump one of the numerous older ones.

Thank you.

pinky


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Information and Politics [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2191075 - 12/19/03 04:44 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

infidelGOD writes:

my thoughts exactly. I'll go furthur and say that programs like Rock the Vote are contrary to the way our limited democracy was meant to function.

EchoVortex proposed what I think is a truly excellent qualifier for the voting process in a post a few months back. If the search function was up and running I'd quote it in its entirety, but for now I'll try to paraphrase it as accurately as I can:

His proposal was that in order to have your name appear on the voting list, you must pass the same test given to all immigrants becoming citizens. The point being that if your knowledge of the way government works in the US is too limited to pass this test, you have no business voting.

I believe in principle this is one of the best ideas I've come across yet, but I don't know how practical it would be to implement it.

pinky


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Information and Politics [Re: Sclorch]
    #2191082 - 12/19/03 04:47 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

how many people you reckon still live in a world without CNN?

Or television.

Or newspapers


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Information and Politics [Re: Phred]
    #2191086 - 12/19/03 04:48 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

How about a literacy test!

Oh, oops.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Information and Politics [Re: Phred]
    #2192306 - 12/20/03 02:48 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

I guess our peaceful hiatus has ended. Oh well, it was fun while it lasted.

These flames were all taken from just ONE thread during the "peaceful hiatus" you refer to:

Perhaps it is time for your to re-examine the premises upon which your fantasy world is built.

you are either too blind, too ignorant or too self-deluded to see it.

I see you are still unable to grasp the concept. It's a pity that your are so cognitively challenged.

Good little drone.

Try to think rationally

dodges, equivocations, and justifications based on abstractions that only exist in your mind.


This guy likes to hear himself type.

I see you have him stunned into silence. That is always a sign of victory.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Information and Politics [Re: Xlea321]
    #2192426 - 12/20/03 05:47 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

So does this mean you and LDS will discuss the WMD issue in a separate thread? If so, thank you.

pinky


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OfflineCrobih
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Registered: 11/03/98
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Re: Information and Politics [Re: Sclorch]
    #2195195 - 12/22/03 06:46 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Wow. Cool topic :cool:

Quote:

Sclorch said:
We each have VERY LITTLE information on many political issues and situations, yet how many of us form these rock-solid opinions anyways?


Right.
Quote:

Looking back through my history books, I try to think about what CNN would show it's viewers if CNN were around back then.  Would Mao's plan against the Nationalists have worked if he shared all of his information with CNN?
What about other political moves?


Wrong. Common good of the nation is one. When you work for the common good, transparent moves are great cause you gain the full legitimacy through that.
Quote:

I'm pretty sure Machiavelli knew the importance of not showing off your cards until the right moment.


You missunderastand the context of the Machiavelli thought. He was turned toward the oligarchical system that was only possible political system before the internet. In that system, you have to be popular among those who rule. And they are oposing people. So, you have to balance those two things. In the E-democracy, there are only people who rule. So, you do not have to balnce. You have to work for the common good and transperence is your interest.
[qutoe]If we don't know what cards the players of the "big game" are holding, how can we claim to have "the answer" to anything?[/qutoe] You can not know everything. Never. But, black box principle has allways been effective way of realising whats behind the curtain.
Quote:

To summarize my view on politics:
Shut your fucking pie hole until you have all the cards in view AND/OR be constantly aware of the fact that you don't know who's holding what.


Wrong. Everybody is zoon politicon. You can not denide it.


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OfflineCrobih
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Re: Information and Politics [Re: Phred]
    #2195197 - 12/22/03 06:49 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
Which is why direct Democracy is such a bad idea.


This opinion is based on easy thinking. It is completely wrong though. Anyway, direct democracy means direct participation in politics. Not direct voting.


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OfflineCrobih
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Re: Information and Politics [Re: silversoul7]
    #2195200 - 12/22/03 06:56 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
People are idiots, and people in office are just as stupid as the general public. To me, direct democracy or representative democracy makes no difference. Same shit, different idiots.


No. This system is non transparent system. Nobody is responsible for nothing. But somebody is responsible for world going down. In every single context. Legitimacy of US governemnt was never this low. Anyway, you risk chaos if you do not change the political system on time. And that system is E-democracy, off course.

BTW, people such as Machiavelli that Schlorch mentioned, realised that people are the best governors. Though it was not practically possible before.

I will mention one idea you like to oversee. People do not want to act against themselves. People have a common sense. That is enough. I can mention many historical events when mob decided something, but those who where appreciated among people would explain to them it is not good for them. So, the people who created mob would do as smarter people said.

Anyway, when you are responsible, you do not mess as you mess now, when you FIRTLY do not know what is a really happening. And you do not know it casue oligarchy keeps its power by holding the relevant political informations. So, you can not decide by sense, cause you do not know what is happening.

You are manipulated. In true democracy, it is not possible. Cause it is the interest of political elite, to make you properly informed.


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OfflineCrobih
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Re: Information and Politics [Re: Sclorch]
    #2195202 - 12/22/03 07:00 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Sclorch said:
No... the masses don't learn when they're directly responsible.
Unfortunately, the scapegoat is a necessary tool for teaching large groups of idiots what NOT to do.


I mentiond it allready. Anyway, I have to notice that masses are created od many individuals. Direct democracy is based on the individual, not masses. Today system is based on manipulated masses. And if you try a little bit harder, you will understand how big difference is among these two system.

Hint. Political elite, if it is not democratical* elite is against the people. Cause it keeps its power keeping it from the peope. In true democracy, polical elite is based on the best people of the population, that anable everybody the best progress.

* I mean real democrats, not so called demcrats.


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Anonymous

Re: Information and Politics [Re: Crobih]
    #2195208 - 12/22/03 07:09 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Crobih said:
Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
Which is why direct Democracy is such a bad idea.


This opinion is based on easy thinking. It is completely wrong though. Anyway, direct democracy means direct participation in politics. Not direct voting.




"Of the above mentioned forms, the perversions are as follows: of royalty, tyranny; of aristocracy, oligarchy; of constitutional government, democracy. For tyranny is a kind of monarchy which has in view the interest of the monarch only; oligarchy has in view the interest of the wealthy; democracy, of the needy; none of them the common good of all.

"When the citizens at large administer the state for the common interest, the government is called by the generic name of constitutional government. And there is reason for use of this language. One man or a few may excel in virtue; but of virtue there are many kinds. As the number of rulers increases it becomes exceedingly difficult for them to attain perfection in every kind, though they may in military virtue, for this is found in the masses. Hence, in a constitutional government the fighting men have the supreme power, and those who possess arms are citizens."

Aristotle


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OfflineCrobih
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Re: Information and Politics [Re: ]
    #2195672 - 12/22/03 12:42 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mr_Mushrooms said:
"Of the above mentioned forms, the perversions are as follows: of royalty, tyranny; of aristocracy, oligarchy; of constitutional government, democracy. For tyranny is a kind of monarchy which has in view the interest of the monarch only; oligarchy has in view the interest of the wealthy; democracy, of the needy; none of them the common good of all.


Big names, huh? :smile:

First. I have to notice that true democracy is an ideal that never happened to its perfect. Anyway, this is an interesting opinion. And I agree with that. Partially. Cause Common good is a sum of every single good we have. If there is a monarchy, the only good that is relevant is one good of monarch. Oligarchy (we live in oligarchy!) has another relevant good of several people. Good of people is excatly common good.
Quote:

"When the citizens at large administer the state for the common interest, the government is called by the generic name of constitutional government. And there is reason for use of this language. One man or a few may excel in virtue; but of virtue there are many kinds. As the number of rulers increases it becomes exceedingly difficult for them to attain perfection in every kind, though they may in military virtue, for this is found in the masses. Hence, in a constitutional government the fighting men have the supreme power, and those who possess arms are citizens."

Aristotle


Democracy does not mean that all people ( It does not have to be 50%, Russoueu (whatever) mentioned interesting majority of 7/8 or more) decide about everything. They are top arbitar. The arbitar that is asked when some problem happenes. When those who represent the interest of the people have to show their results.

You do not ask monarch, but people. People who own full legitimacy, the legitimacy that can not be removed from the people. Though, you can remove legitimacy from the monarch, if people decide to do so.

Before interent it was imposible to do a synergy of people. so every system was based on oligarchical principle that would create top governor who would became against the people just a few days it got elected.

So, people are allways top arbitar of any government. That is the reason why all systems tends for real democracy. And now, we have to decide, cause people decide willing it or not, to get them informed, to open politics to them, or to keep them manipulating.

I think the answer is pretty one :smile:


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Information and Politics [Re: Sclorch]
    #2196480 - 12/22/03 07:35 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

did you really think this was about oil?




Do you really think it wasnt?? So the Iraq war was about "the creation of rational nation states over sovereignty "??

Sorry bud but my money's with the oil.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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