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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Who is Hitler? [Re: Asante]
#21896426 - 07/04/15 11:52 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Asante said: How about we do the timewarp and swap you out with a Jew on transport to.. mm lets see.. Belzec?
Yes Belzec would be perfect for you to verify your labor camp theory. 430,000-500,000 were brought there, 7 survived. Yes seven. They spread the ashes and tore down the camp, mission accomplished.
Belzec was never liberated, it served its purpose and was dismantled before the war ended. Locals had to tell the allies there even was a camp.
Belzec Extermination Camp
Or how about the Holocaust By Bullet? Marauding Einsatzgruppen went from village to village in eastern europe, rounded up all the Jews, dug a trench and shot them all, stacking them in rows atop each other. Bit of sand on top and, on to the next village.
Logic =/= Nazis
Nazis exterminated because they hated. It doesnt make any sense except that it was based on hate. Don't try to make sense of it in your peculiar way because you are pissing on the graves of millions including those of the Allied soldiers who gave life and limb to rid the world of the evil of its time.
Its not about Liberal vs Conservative, Zappaisgod is the least liberal of any of us, its about informed vs misinformed.
You are spreading harmful misinformation.
That's not really true. We have quite a few social conservatives here. I am most definitely not that.
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Mr.GuessWork
Stranger

Registered: 03/30/13
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Re: Who is Hitler? [Re: Asante]
#21896439 - 07/04/15 11:57 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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The sad part is that there actually was a good amount of logic put into what the Nazis did. They probably used ovens or cyanide when it was convenient and effective to do so. Their technical skills weren't lacking, they just had lots of wrong fundamental ideas about what it is to be human. It was their philosophy that put the rest of the world against them with such passion. I doubt the Nazis would have been able to survive any kind of peace. They needed an enemy to fight. Otherwise people would have started to get more serious about asking questions and challenging moral authorities.
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Stonehenge
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>Bullets would have been a hell of a lot cheaper than a barge,
Not much cheaper and then you have a body to burn. Bodies take a lot of fuel to turn to ashes.
>They could have used that fuel to heat houses, but burning people alive was more important to them
Now you say the prisoners were burned alive? But the fuel that didn't heat houses means german civilians died of cold. Why would they let their own people die to burn bodies when there are many easier ways to dispose of them.
>I looked for a way to break out of that camp, and there wasn't one.
You win the "DUH" award. Prison camps are not designed to be easy to break out of.
>And I doubt anybody even bitched about the cyanide in the air.
Oh, you doubt it? If you worked at the camps, you would be breathing that shit. Why would they have the gas chambers right at the camps where the guards and Nazi officials were? Are you saying they didn't have enough sense to put the chambers, where allegedly most were killed, outside the camps so that at least there would be some distance between the constant emissions of cyanide gas and the camp itself?
Asante >You are spreading harmful misinformation.
What exactly was I wrong about? You know, those things you don't care for called facts? We agree Nazis were bad people, hitler was a bad leader and they killed lots of people including jews.
I asked if you believed people could do hard labor on 600 calories a day as you claimed? No reply to that of course because its impossible. If that is misinformation then explain how its possible? 600 calories will not keep one alive even assuming they do nothing and just sit all day. Doing labor of any sort is impossible. You want to know why? Because for one thing their muscles could not recover from labor. It takes protein, fats and other nutrients or muscle soreness becomes muscles that don't work any more even if they had the will to go on.
They had all of Europe to loot, why would they get stingy with a little bit of food when they had prisoners working in factories producing badly needed goods? Explain that one. I expect the sound of crickets in reply.
Barges take very little fuel to operate, one barge could hold 20 to 50 times the people that a gas chamber holds. No cyanide released into the air poisoning everyone around, no bodies to burn. The only bodies they burned were civilians.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Helmut has clearly spent quite a bit of time ruminating on how the Nazis could have killed more people for less money. I wonder why.
no I don't. I know why
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Mr.GuessWork
Stranger

Registered: 03/30/13
Posts: 4,563
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: >Bullets would have been a hell of a lot cheaper than a barge,
Not much cheaper and then you have a body to burn. Bodies take a lot of fuel to turn to ashes.
>They could have used that fuel to heat houses, but burning people alive was more important to them
Now you say the prisoners were burned alive? But the fuel that didn't heat houses means german civilians died of cold. Why would they let their own people die to burn bodies when there are many easier ways to dispose of them.
>I looked for a way to break out of that camp, and there wasn't one.
You win the "DUH" award. Prison camps are not designed to be easy to break out of.
>And I doubt anybody even bitched about the cyanide in the air.
Oh, you doubt it? If you worked at the camps, you would be breathing that shit. Why would they have the gas chambers right at the camps where the guards and Nazi officials were? Are you saying they didn't have enough sense to put the chambers, where allegedly most were killed, outside the camps so that at least there would be some distance between the constant emissions of cyanide gas and the camp itself?
Asante >You are spreading harmful misinformation.
What exactly was I wrong about? You know, those things you don't care for called facts? We agree Nazis were bad people, hitler was a bad leader and they killed lots of people including jews.
I asked if you believed people could do hard labor on 600 calories a day as you claimed? No reply to that of course because its impossible. If that is misinformation then explain how its possible? 600 calories will not keep one alive even assuming they do nothing and just sit all day. Doing labor of any sort is impossible. You want to know why? Because for one thing their muscles could not recover from labor. It takes protein, fats and other nutrients or muscle soreness becomes muscles that don't work any more even if they had the will to go on.
They had all of Europe to loot, why would they get stingy with a little bit of food when they had prisoners working in factories producing badly needed goods? Explain that one. I expect the sound of crickets in reply.
Barges take very little fuel to operate, one barge could hold 20 to 50 times the people that a gas chamber holds. No cyanide released into the air poisoning everyone around, no bodies to burn. The only bodies they burned were civilians.
Any spare barges would have been turned to warships, and if you really want a cheap way to kill and get rid of bodies, you can use a rock and a big hole. Also, we don't know what the military concerns for choosing those methods were. I'm sure people thought through it from many different angles though and prudently decided on which methods to use. But you're missing the point, dude. The methods are irrelevant. However, there is very strong physical evidence (and millions of first hand reports by the way. Holocaust survivors are still alive today) that those camps used those methods.
You also don't seem to be able to understand the psychological state of Germany at the time. Caring about cyanide in the air is on the same level as caring about what the local PTA has decided is important (it's also pretty easy to safely dispose of the cyanide gas by venting the room properly to a safe outlet, much like a fume hood does, so the whole point is really weak). Those kind of concerns would have been viewed as petty or frivolous concerns, probably even as dissident concerns that were intended to hamper the war effort (off to the camps with the vermin for you). German families freezing in the winter was A-okay. The Nazi leaders perceived a real external threat from all their war enemies and an internal threat from the jews and such. If the Germans didn't have enough heat for the winter, then only the weak families would die, and those were a drain on the state anyway. That would be considered Eugenic progress. The rest of the families and the German way of life would have died if the war was lost or if the jews took over anyway, and the Nazis sure as hell wouldn't be taken in by any of those lame hippy-style arguments like the ones you posted.
I'm surprised you can actually believe that shit you posted. You can believe in a crazy cover-up story, but you don't believe in millions of first hand reports, monumental ruins across Europe, and massive amounts of written reports and photographic evidence. Some of those reports even came from Nazis. Would you say they're making it up too. You can actually go touch all this stuff, man. It only happened a little over fifty years ago. You can even still talk to people who were in those camps watching their friends and family die, and you can still talk to some of the vets who liberated those camps. The lizard people have a more credible existence then this idea. You're failing at critical thinking on this topic. Reassess your position.
EDIT: I should also add that the German military industry was big, and it had lost of sales bullshit and deal making like our military does. They went with certain options because they were available, and because it sounded good to them at the time. Advertising and that kind of stuff was involved. Sometimes countries do things for bad reasons that aren't strait-forward. Look at us for example, we don't need any more tanks, yet congress has and will continue to keep buying more of them, even though the generals are against it. Decisions don't have to be good or reasonable to have been made.
Edited by Mr.GuessWork (07/04/15 12:56 PM)
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Stonehenge
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Registered: 06/20/04
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MGW, congratulations on using the strawman that I am saying no deaths occurred or that it was a whole fabrication. That is the standard fallback position of the pc crowd.
>Any spare barges would have been turned to warships
Do you have any clue at all? You do not turn a barge into a warship, they are two different things entirely. A barge is simply a floating platform, usually has no propulsion and uses tugs for mobility.
>The methods are irrelevant. However, there is very strong physical evidence (and millions of first hand reports by the way. Holocaust survivors are still alive today) that those camps used those methods.
Did some people get gassed with cyanide or with truck exhaust? Probably. The point you of course miss is that it is not feasible to do this on a large scale.
>(it's also pretty easy to safely dispose of the cyanide gas by venting the room properly to a safe outlet
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/ershdb/emergencyresponsecard_29750038.html
"Hydrogen cyanide (AC) is a systemic chemical asphyxiant. It interferes with the normal use of oxygen by nearly every organ of the body. Exposure to hydrogen cyanide (AC) can be rapidly fatal. It has whole-body (systemic) effects, particularly affecting those organ systems most sensitive to low oxygen levels: the central nervous system (brain), the cardiovascular system (heart and blood vessels), and the pulmonary system (lungs). Hydrogen cyanide (AC) is a chemical warfare agent:" "◦The agent or its vapors present a vapor explosion and poison (toxic) hazard indoors, outdoors, or in sewers"
So as we see when we examine FACTS that it is not safe, its highly toxic and used for military purposes on the battle field. We also see it forms explosive mixtures with air and any spark would have blown up the building. So you are telling us the guards did not mind constant emissions of cyanide and did not mind the explosion danger. The chambers would have to be used constantly to kill any large number and even used 24/7 could not kill the millions claimed.
>and millions of first hand reports by the way. Holocaust survivors are still alive today
If they were all killed, that seems odd. Millions of first hand reports you say? None of them fabricated?
Adolph > how the Nazis could have killed more people for less money. I wonder why
You are clearly one of those who do not want the facts examined and the truth found. I wonder why? Why are you so afraid of truth?
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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The truth is that the Nazis killed six million Jews and a whole shit load of other people in concentration camps with a deliberate campaign of murder. This is a well known fact.
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Stonehenge
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Loc: S.E.
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Then its the truth that god created the world in 6 days and rested on the seventh. its a well known fact. It must be true that Oswald was the lone killer of kennedy, after all the govt swears its true. Governments don't lie do they? The media surely would not lie, you will agree with that no doubt.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Oswald was the lone killer and the Nazis killed 6 million Jews and a whole shitload of other people in concentration camps. There is a lot of evidence for it. Like the camps and the ovens and the showers and the graves and the bodies. There is no evidence that god created the universe in 6 days. You need to get help, Helmut.
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Psychonautica
Cuddly Wuddly Fuccboi


Registered: 04/20/15
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Loc: Free Soul & IISkuNkII
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-------------------- The chances of you even being born, Were forty million to one. There's two parts of the statistic And I want you to live through one 3/8/95 - 7/10/15 Rest In Paradise, Brother. Sheekle said: yeah, i said i was afraid of psychonautica

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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
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Quote:
Stonehenge said:
You are clearly one of those who do not want the facts examined and the truth found. I wonder why? Why are you so afraid of truth?
We don't care for your Stormfront Fred Leuchter inspired holocaust denial. If you want the actual facts, as measured by actual science, here you go:
The Chemistry of Auschwitz
In most death camps the killing gas wasnt hydrogen cyanide, it was engine exhaust fumes. There were found a group of airtight chambers hooked up to a ventilation system that was connected to a russion tank engine, which clearly had been running to flood the rooms with carbon monoxide. Maybe a new technique of delousing?
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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Asante
Mage


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Re: Who is Hitler? [Re: Asante]
#21896734 - 07/04/15 01:28 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Stonehenge the shocking thing you discover in everybodies writing actually is a quirk in your own mind. You are completely wrong and see everything distorted because of it.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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Stonehenge
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>Oswald was the lone killer
There is lots of evidence contradicting that. Perhaps you saw the film clip in which his head was struck by a bullet from the front and was pushed backward as the back of his head blew out? Kind of hard to do that with a shot from behind which is where Oswald was. But you have your little mind made up so we should not annoy you with facts.
>Nazis killed 6 million Jews and a whole shitload of other people in concentration camps. There is a lot of evidence for it. Like the camps and the ovens and the showers and the graves and the bodies.
There is evidence people died, from what we are not sure. Disease was definitely a major cause. Bombing and straffing, fires, lack of food and medical supplies tends to kill a lot of people too. Look it up. What there is little to no solid evidence is that substantial numbers of people were killed in the "showers". They did tests on the walls and it came up negative for cyanide exposure thereby trashing your little belief.
>There is no evidence that god created the universe in 6 days.
It says so in a book. Lots of people will swear to it. You have your little beliefs that you do not want exposed to the light of day or examined for truth but you sneer at other's beliefs.
I say lots of people died, Nazis were bad, many jews died but lets take a look at the facts and see what really happened. Clearly many things we were told were physically impossible or are contradicted by evidence. You are one of the luddites who says questioning the sacred story is heresy. Much like the extreme left, you have an aversion to facts.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Mr.GuessWork
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: MGW, congratulations on using the strawman that I am saying no deaths occurred or that it was a whole fabrication. That is the standard fallback position of the pc crowd.
>Any spare barges would have been turned to warships
Do you have any clue at all? You do not turn a barge into a warship, they are two different things entirely. A barge is simply a floating platform, usually has no propulsion and uses tugs for mobility.
>The methods are irrelevant. However, there is very strong physical evidence (and millions of first hand reports by the way. Holocaust survivors are still alive today) that those camps used those methods.
Did some people get gassed with cyanide or with truck exhaust? Probably. The point you of course miss is that it is not feasible to do this on a large scale.
>(it's also pretty easy to safely dispose of the cyanide gas by venting the room properly to a safe outlet
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/ershdb/emergencyresponsecard_29750038.html
"Hydrogen cyanide (AC) is a systemic chemical asphyxiant. It interferes with the normal use of oxygen by nearly every organ of the body. Exposure to hydrogen cyanide (AC) can be rapidly fatal. It has whole-body (systemic) effects, particularly affecting those organ systems most sensitive to low oxygen levels: the central nervous system (brain), the cardiovascular system (heart and blood vessels), and the pulmonary system (lungs). Hydrogen cyanide (AC) is a chemical warfare agent:" "◦The agent or its vapors present a vapor explosion and poison (toxic) hazard indoors, outdoors, or in sewers"
So as we see when we examine FACTS that it is not safe, its highly toxic and used for military purposes on the battle field. We also see it forms explosive mixtures with air and any spark would have blown up the building. So you are telling us the guards did not mind constant emissions of cyanide and did not mind the explosion danger. The chambers would have to be used constantly to kill any large number and even used 24/7 could not kill the millions claimed.
>and millions of first hand reports by the way. Holocaust survivors are still alive today
If they were all killed, that seems odd. Millions of first hand reports you say? None of them fabricated?
Adolph > how the Nazis could have killed more people for less money. I wonder why
You are clearly one of those who do not want the facts examined and the truth found. I wonder why? Why are you so afraid of truth?
PC crowd? What the hell are you raving on about? You're suggesting that all those people were secretly killed by other methods even though gas chambers and crematoriums were built all over the place. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt on assuming how crazy your idea was. Those chamber could hold lots of people, and new people could be cycled in quickly with minimal amounts of guards and prisoner transfers. Moving thousands of people to and on a lame tug barge like you describe is considerably more costly and way less efficient. Plus the people in the camps actually did work for the German army, and they can't do that if they're all being marched to a barge somewhere far away (you'd also need LOTs of extra guards to get that done properly, and it would have looked bad for the Nazis and hurt their image). People in the camps were generally killed (basically onsite) when they could't work anymore. You're suggesting that they should have wasted valuable slave labor. The Nazis probably dismissed ideas similar to yours because the ideas weren't practical for their purposes. several people probably made a career out of coming up with better ways to kill people in concentration camps.
I didn't say CN was safe. It's obviously toxic enough to rapidly kill a bunch of people in an enclosed area at relatively low concentrations. When you vent it, you vent it somewhere were there aren't any people (like a few hundred feet up in the air) and by the time it gets to where people are, it's too dilute to be significantly toxic. It's a very easy problem to solve (look up fume hoods). It's also easy to kill lots of people with cyanide gas. It kills pretty quickly, and it's cheap and easy to produce. And like I said before, ovens and gas chambers are not responsible for all the deaths, and nobody claimed they were (Aside from you maybe? I can't tell anymore because you're making less sense as you go on.). The conditions of the camps were sufficient to kill lots of the people through starvation and exposure. They also did medical "experiments" and other weird stuff to prisoners like determining how high altitude would kill them. Those crematoriums and gas chambers did a lot of memorable killing though, and that's partly why they're mentioned.
You clearly don't even know jack shit about our military culture. You don't question orders with shit like "But what if I'm exposed to trace amounts of CN gas and I get hurt?". Sissies aren't allowed in the military. The German military was at least strict as ours that way. Soldiers take risks and they accept that and trust their leaders. They're not whiny protesting hippies. They had real problems to think about (Remember WW2?), and they even had better fake problems to worry about. Protesters and whiners would not be in positions to change anything, if they were lucky.
You've got to poke some holes in that tinfoil hat so some good ideas can get in that head of yours. Nobody said everybody was killed in the holocaust. There were plenty of survivors in the camps when they were liberated, there were soldiers there, and lots of people lived near those camps and saw what was happening. There were also some nazis documents that explained some of what was happening there. I'm sure some of those reports were fabricated, but so what? Do you think they were all fabricated? Are you arguing that because some of those reports were fabricated that the holocaust must have happened a different way. The history is pretty clear on this one.
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


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Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: Who is Hitler? [Re: Asante]
#21896805 - 07/04/15 01:45 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Now your turn asante. You of course made no effort to address the logical points I brought up but you did offer this:
>In most death camps the killing gas wasnt hydrogen cyanide, it was engine exhaust fumes. There were found a group of airtight chambers hooked up to a ventilation system that was connected to a russion tank engine, which clearly had been running to flood the rooms with carbon monoxide.
So the story is changing now? Since evidence shows the cyanide theory is not working for large scale killings, now you fall back on that feeble monoxide story? It is probably true they found some chambers hooked up that way. Russian tanks were diesels which produce little monoxide. It would have taken a long long time to kill people that way.
You also have dodged the question of disposing of the bodies. They had little to no fat on them, the human body has lots of water in it, it takes major amounts of fuel to burn. They had little choice but to burn the civilians who died, could not leave them rotting in the streets spreading disease. Apparently they were inducted into Judaism after death, is that a secret jewish ritual, zappa?
So you guys are telling me the efficient precise Nazis used the least efficient methods of killing they could find and let their own citizens die so they could burn prisoners they killed? No one wants to touch the barge idea or any of a number of other simple ways of disposing of bodies.
I see you have predictably run away from your statement about them getting 600 calories a day and doing labor. Its funny how these beliefs tend to shrivel when examined in the light of day. No wonder you and zappa want the facts kept buried. The truth might be inconvenient.
And to solidify your liberal credentials you do the traditional personal attack
>We don't care for your Stormfront Fred Leuchter inspired holocaust denial
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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He's just disappointed
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Psychonautica
Cuddly Wuddly Fuccboi


Registered: 04/20/15
Posts: 10,854
Loc: Free Soul & IISkuNkII
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Is this nigga serious or just the most elaborate troll of 2015?
-------------------- The chances of you even being born, Were forty million to one. There's two parts of the statistic And I want you to live through one 3/8/95 - 7/10/15 Rest In Paradise, Brother. Sheekle said: yeah, i said i was afraid of psychonautica

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WAN
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You guys should deal with (and dismantle, if possible) Stone's points and arguments, instead of jeering at him on the sideline.
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Stonehenge
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Posts: 14,850
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I see mgw is back for another beating
>PC crowd? What the hell are you raving on about? You're suggesting that all those people were secretly killed by other methods even though gas chambers and crematoriums were built all over the place
They were not all over the place and the crematoriums could scarcely keep up with civilian deaths. The gas chambers were examined and no traces of cyanide were found. Sorry.
>It's obviously toxic enough to rapidly kill a bunch of people in an enclosed area at relatively low concentrations. When you vent it, you vent it somewhere were there aren't any people (like a few hundred feet up in the air) and by the time it gets to where people are, it's too dilute to be significantly toxic
It doesn't have to be enclosed, if you read the info I posted it says its deadly outside too. No trace of those several hundred feet tall vents you imagined. Would you work at a job where they vented cyanide all day every day? Tell me again why they didn't build that out in the woods where poisoning would not be a problem? You also dodged the fact is is very flammable and explosive and in many cases the showers were right next to the ovens.
Why were so many prisoners liberated? Cutting off food and water for a few days would have killed them. Seems like the germans weren't good at all at killing people yet we are never supposed to question the 6 million jews figure.
Lets not examine facts, lets call names. Oh, I see you folks are using that exact "strategy" I wonder why?
Wan, they can't do it. They have tried and failed so they fall back on standard liberal tactics.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Mr.GuessWork
Stranger

Registered: 03/30/13
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: He's just disappointed
I can't tell what he is. He keeps pulling stuff out of nowhere like we all asserted it. I think he's just rage posting at this point. I've been reading his posts with one of those spitting angry slurs to get the full emotive effect.
And WAN, we did address his points when they could be addressed. He's still jumping to crazy unfounded conclusions. His methods of argument haven't adequately addressed the large body of evidence that contradicts his points. We call that body of evidence recent history.
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