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OfflineBigbadwooof
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New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist * 1
    #21890524 - 07/02/15 10:46 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

http://www.gallup.com/poll/183713/socialist-presidential-candidates-least-appealing.aspx

I guess I'm in the slight minority. Whatup, bitches!?! Sorry, my conservative friends, I don't have a poll for 'Fascist'. ;-)

Frank Luntz, a Republican pollster, told Republicans to "Stop using the word 'Capitalism', it only does you damage!"

I'm seeing red, and soon, so will all of you ;-)


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"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


Edited by Bigbadwooof (07/02/15 10:55 PM)


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OfflinePsilosopherr
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21890617 - 07/02/15 11:09 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

aw hell.

The times they are a changin. Slightly for the better, for once.


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Offlinesweeper54
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Psilosopherr]
    #21891466 - 07/03/15 06:33 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Go Bernie


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: sweeper54] * 1
    #21891981 - 07/03/15 10:13 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

47%.....HMMMMMMM.......where haVE I heard that number before? :smirk:


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21892035 - 07/03/15 10:33 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Calling Doctor Gallop, Doctor Sesame, Doctor Gallop.



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InvisibleBlackWidow
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Registered: 09/25/11
Posts: 2,395
` [Re: falcon]
    #21940613 - 07/14/15 04:42 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

`


Edited by BlackWidow (02/03/21 03:49 PM)


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Offlinesweeper54
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: BlackWidow]
    #21940727 - 07/14/15 05:53 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Taxes


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: BlackWidow]
    #21940829 - 07/14/15 07:12 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlackWidow said:
I like free things, don't get me wrong, but where will this money to pay for all these things come from?




I'm so tired of this "socialism = free stuff" equivocation.

Read a damn book.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: sweeper54] * 1
    #21941037 - 07/14/15 08:22 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

>Taxes

In other words, take away what the workers produce and give it to the bums who produce nothing but hordes of brats for us to take care of. Business has already fled the country rather than be raped, many of the workers are doing the same or going underground. No wonder we are having such a hard time with this 'gimme free stuff' mentality.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Stonehenge] * 1
    #21941155 - 07/14/15 08:53 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

It's not taking from the producers to give to leeches. It's a different way of financing things that we all use. And theres evidence to suggest it's more cost-effective to do it that way, for example, the cost of healthcare per capita in this country versus other countries.


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DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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OfflinePsilosopherr
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21941311 - 07/14/15 09:43 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

because the money is much better spent on our enormous war machine?

Why is everybody so opposed to the government providing services with taxes? free stuff is such a dirty word. Why else are they collecting all this money if not to serve you?


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Psilosopherr] * 1
    #21941378 - 07/14/15 09:59 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

If the govt spent the money at all wisely very few would be opposed. But the govt is the opposite of wise, it gives the loot to cronies (obumble) or to finance stupid wars and terrorist operations against civilians that they laughingly call militants (obumble) or hand it to the industry that gives the biggest bribes.

Its like the bum that comes up and starts smearing your windshield with his dirty rag and demanding a payoff from you for his services.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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InvisibleShins
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21941425 - 07/14/15 10:11 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Taxes don't come even close to covering spending.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Shins]
    #21941926 - 07/14/15 12:46 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

That means 53% are conservatives.

Socialism is losing... again...


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InvisibleDoes

Registered: 02/12/12
Posts: 2,846
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Patlal]
    #21941966 - 07/14/15 12:56 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Its a lie


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InvisibleShins
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Patlal]
    #21942105 - 07/14/15 01:42 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
That means 53% are conservatives.

Socialism is losing... again...





Soialism is a loser system for loser people.  Of course socialism is losing, it always loses and the people always end up losers, just look at greece.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Shins]
    #21942111 - 07/14/15 01:44 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

You need socialism. But not full scale. To keep the Conservatives honest and vice versa


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InvisibleShins
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Patlal]
    #21942121 - 07/14/15 01:47 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Socialists need to be honest with themselves before even thinking about making capitalists honest.  I'd docialists were honest, they'd probably be Capitalists.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Shins]
    #21942125 - 07/14/15 01:49 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

What's dishonest about believing that poor people need to be treated well?


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InvisibleShins
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Patlal]
    #21942141 - 07/14/15 01:56 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Stealing money to give to the poor is not honest,  theft is dishonest. 

Also socialism creates poverty, its a feedbavk loop.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


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Offlinesweeper54
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Shins]
    #21942241 - 07/14/15 02:23 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Stone just wants to give billions of healthcare dollars to CEO scum like Rick Scott who then turn around and rip the Gov off.


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Shins]
    #21942274 - 07/14/15 02:32 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Stealing money to give to the poor is not honest,  theft is dishonest. 

Also socialism creates poverty, its a feedbavk loop.




Who steal money exactly?


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: sweeper54]
    #21942289 - 07/14/15 02:34 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

sweeper54 said:
Stone just wants to give billions of healthcare dollars to CEO scum like Rick Scott who then turn around and rip the Gov off.




Are you insane or merely drunk?


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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Offlinesweeper54
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21942298 - 07/14/15 02:36 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Neither


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Offlinesweeper54
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: sweeper54]
    #21942310 - 07/14/15 02:40 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

In 1987, at age 34, he co-founded Columbia Hospital Corporation with two business partners; this merged with Hospital Corporation of America in 1989 to form Columbia/HCA and eventually became the largest private for-profit health care company in the U.S.[citation needed]

He resigned as Chief Executive of Columbia/HCA in 1997 amid a controversy over the company's business and Medicare billing practices; the company ultimately admitted to fourteen felonies and agreed to pay the federal government over $600 million, which was the largest fraud settlement in US history. Scott was not implicated and no charges were raised against him personally.

And the rest of the healthcare CEO scum ripping off the public.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: sweeper54]
    #21942410 - 07/14/15 03:04 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Get rid of Medicaid and nobody will be able to rip it off.  Why did the Medicaid administrators and bureaucrats who were supposed to watch this shit get nothing?  What the fuck are we paying them for?  Idiots


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Registered: 11/11/09
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21942438 - 07/14/15 03:11 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Single. Payer.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21942470 - 07/14/15 03:20 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Single. Payer.



That is a lie.  There is nothing single payer about the millions and millions of people who will be forced to pay.  How's the VA doing?  Medicaid is stupid and sucks and you want the government to be more in charge?  It is a serious lack of intellect that would lead anybody but a total welfare leech to advocate for government health care.  They suck at it as has been demonstrated time and time again.


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21942533 - 07/14/15 03:37 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

BlackWidow said:
I like free things, don't get me wrong, but where will this money to pay for all these things come from?




I'm so tired of this "socialism = free stuff" equivocation.

Read a damn book.




Is it a free book?


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21942547 - 07/14/15 03:41 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Single. Payer.



That is a lie.  There is nothing single payer about the millions and millions of people who will be forced to pay.  How's the VA doing?  Medicaid is stupid and sucks and you want the government to be more in charge?  It is a serious lack of intellect that would lead anybody but a total welfare leech to advocate for government health care.  They suck at it as has been demonstrated time and time again.




It is worth reiterating that the U.S. spends far more than any other country per capita on healthcare and does very poorly on indicators of overall health. Clearly our system could be much better (to put it mildly), and a successful model that much of the world uses is the single payer system.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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Offlinesweeper54
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21942599 - 07/14/15 03:56 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Single. Payer.



That is a lie.  There is nothing single payer about the millions and millions of people who will be forced to pay.  How's the VA doing?  Medicaid is stupid and sucks and you want the government to be more in charge?  It is a serious lack of intellect that would lead anybody but a total welfare leech to advocate for government health care.  They suck at it as has been demonstrated time and time again.




It is worth reiterating that the U.S. spends far more than any other country per capita on healthcare and does very poorly on indicators of overall health. Clearly our system could be much better (to put it mildly), and a successful model that much of the world uses is the single payer system.





:raisemyglass: It certainly can't be any worst.


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InvisibleShins
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Patlal]
    #21942803 - 07/14/15 04:42 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Quote:

Shins said:
Stealing money to give to the poor is not honest,  theft is dishonest. 

Also socialism creates poverty, its a feedbavk loop.




Who steal money exactly?





See, you're not being honest.

where do you think the money comed from for social programs?  A magic box?


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


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InvisibleShins
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Shins]
    #21942817 - 07/14/15 04:44 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

No level of healthcare will help fat fucks who binge eat hamburgers and bacon all day.  The US spends a lot on healthcare at least partially because Americans live unhealthy lifestyles.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Shins]
    #21942818 - 07/14/15 04:44 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Reappropriating funds from capitalist thieves though is perfectly honest.

See, it's all about perspective.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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OfflinePatlal
You ask too many questions
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Registered: 10/09/10
Posts: 44,797
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Shins]
    #21942831 - 07/14/15 04:47 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
Quote:

Shins said:
Stealing money to give to the poor is not honest,  theft is dishonest. 

Also socialism creates poverty, its a feedbavk loop.




Who steal money exactly?





See, you're not being honest.

where do you think the money comed from for social programs?  A magic box?




Oh, you mean the same money used to blow people up thousands of miles away despite public disapproval?
You mean the same money used to pay for the well being of people outside the US?

Cause if money used by the feds toward social programs is theft, than all the money used by government is theft.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21942939 - 07/14/15 05:06 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Single. Payer.



That is a lie.  There is nothing single payer about the millions and millions of people who will be forced to pay.  How's the VA doing?  Medicaid is stupid and sucks and you want the government to be more in charge?  It is a serious lack of intellect that would lead anybody but a total welfare leech to advocate for government health care.  They suck at it as has been demonstrated time and time again.




It is worth reiterating that the U.S. spends far more than any other country per capita on healthcare and does very poorly on indicators of overall health. Clearly our system could be much better (to put it mildly), and a successful model that much of the world uses is the single payer system.



Our cancer survival rates trash Britain's.  Our health care system drives innovation that gets exported to freebooter nations.  Single payer is a complete misnomer and a lie.  Millions of taxpayers support the system and the bums free ride.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Patlal]
    #21942952 - 07/14/15 05:08 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
Quote:

Shins said:
Stealing money to give to the poor is not honest,  theft is dishonest. 

Also socialism creates poverty, its a feedbavk loop.




Who steal money exactly?





See, you're not being honest.

where do you think the money comed from for social programs?  A magic box?




Oh, you mean the same money used to blow people up thousands of miles away despite public disapproval?
You mean the same money used to pay for the well being of people outside the US?

Cause if money used by the feds toward social programs is theft, than all the money used by government is theft.




Blowing those fucks up is a social benefit the whole world takes advantage of.  The fact that the cunts in Europe and Canada don't pay their share is a shame on them.  Every fuckng European should suck an American cock that they aren't speaking Russian.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21943270 - 07/14/15 06:18 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

>Blowing those fucks up is a social benefit the whole world takes advantage of

Again revealing your racist hatred toward arabs.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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Offlinesweeper54
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21943345 - 07/14/15 06:34 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Our cancer survival rates trash Britain's.  Our health care system drives innovation that gets exported to freebooter nations.  Single payer is a complete misnomer and a lie.  Millions of taxpayers support the system and the bums free ride.




And most people can't afford it. Healthcare is the single leading cause for people losing their homes

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/06/05/bankruptcy.medical.bills/


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OfflineWAN
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21943364 - 07/14/15 06:38 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
Quote:

Shins said:



See, you're not being honest.

where do you think the money comed from for social programs?  A magic box?




Oh, you mean the same money used to blow people up thousands of miles away despite public disapproval?
You mean the same money used to pay for the well being of people outside the US?

Cause if money used by the feds toward social programs is theft, than all the money used by government is theft.




Blowing those fucks up is a social benefit the whole world takes advantage of.
 



How is it a social benefit?


Edited by WAN (07/14/15 06:38 PM)


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: sweeper54]
    #21943375 - 07/14/15 06:40 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

>Healthcare is the single leading cause for people losing their homes

False, it merely showed that medical bills were part of the situation.

Wan
>How is it a social benefit?

This is his racism, he hates arabs and anyone over there who is not jewish. So killing a lot of them is in his mind a "social benefit"


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21943494 - 07/14/15 07:08 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

The fact that Socialism is viewed more positively has no bearing on what percentage of the country is Republican vs Democrat. Socialism is not synomymous with Democrat. The less informed conservative fringe nuts would have you believe they are the same, but it's just hyperbole.

The idea of Socialism is the result of the most comprehensive critique of capitalism he world has seen thus far. We can't all be cheerleaders of the status quo, or blind nationalists.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


Edited by Bigbadwooof (07/14/15 07:12 PM)


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21943521 - 07/14/15 07:13 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Feeling extra dizzy tonight, woofy?


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21943647 - 07/14/15 07:46 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

If a person thinks 47% support socialism whether it's true or not, the idea becomes less scary

Condition the animal

If I were running a country I'd like the people to think of the government as socialist, while I accumulate anything of value

people can tear this structure down but I fear time is running out for this option as technology increases

Who knows maybe some righteous tech saavy people would be able to have an impact


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Does] * 1
    #21943893 - 07/14/15 08:38 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The fact that Socialism is viewed more positively has no bearing on what percentage of the country is Republican vs Democrat. Socialism is not synomymous with Democrat.




aint that the truth, the GOP is really starting to piss me the fuck off...

what part of "opposition party" don't they fucking understand? If they wanna be democrats, go be fucking democrats...

Venezuela, Greece, and now Puerto Rico... Socialism always collapses and people suffer, I marvel at the idea that somehow we can do it better just because we're "'Merica"


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Does]
    #21944182 - 07/14/15 09:55 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Does said:
If a person thinks 47% support socialism whether it's true or not, the idea becomes less scary

Condition the animal

If I were running a country I'd like the people to think of the government as socialist, while I accumulate anything of value

people can tear this structure down but I fear time is running out for this option as technology increases

Who knows maybe some righteous tech saavy people would be able to have an impact




I'm not 100% sure I understand your post, but if I am reading it correctly, we are in agreement.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21944521 - 07/14/15 11:04 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

Does said:
If a person thinks 47% support socialism whether it's true or not, the idea becomes less scary

Condition the animal

If I were running a country I'd like the people to think of the government as socialist, while I accumulate anything of value

people can tear this structure down but I fear time is running out for this option as technology increases

Who knows maybe some righteous tech saavy people would be able to have an impact




I'm not 100% sure I understand your post, but if I am reading it correctly, we are in agreement.



In theory socialism sounds great but I believe it can be a great tool for control in the nefarious hands of the ones who will most likely wield the power

I think good can still prevail


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21944654 - 07/14/15 11:41 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Single. Payer.



That is a lie.  There is nothing single payer about the millions and millions of people who will be forced to pay.  How's the VA doing?  Medicaid is stupid and sucks and you want the government to be more in charge?  It is a serious lack of intellect that would lead anybody but a total welfare leech to advocate for government health care.  They suck at it as has been demonstrated time and time again.




It is worth reiterating that the U.S. spends far more than any other country per capita on healthcare and does very poorly on indicators of overall health. Clearly our system could be much better (to put it mildly), and a successful model that much of the world uses is the single payer system.



Our cancer survival rates trash Britain's.  Our health care system drives innovation that gets exported to freebooter nations.  Single payer is a complete misnomer and a lie.  Millions of taxpayers support the system and the bums free ride.





So what? France and Japan have similar cancer survival rates as we do, and beat us on some cancers. Our healthcare system doesn't drive innovation, it drives price inflation. When everything is run by money, and not patient health, you get way more research dollars spent on ways to make the most money not help the most patients.

For example, pharmaceutical companies spend relatively little developing a new antibiotic, which we desperately need. Why? Because why spend hundreds of millions designing an entirely new drug that someone will take for two weeks, when you can tweak an existing drug for depression for much less and that patient will be taking it for years.

And your so-called bums already get a free ride in our healthcare system. a much, much more expensive free ride.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: BlackWidow]
    #21945838 - 07/15/15 05:04 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlackWidow said:
I like free things, don't get me wrong, but where will this money to pay for all these things come from?




The better question is where are we going to get the resources to make all these things.  Money can be made up in an instant. Oil, land, lumber, water and food cannot.  There is not enough to support the average american socialists expectations for a baseline and that alone is a deal breaker to me.


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InvisibleBlackWidow
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` [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21946554 - 07/15/15 09:41 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

`


Edited by BlackWidow (02/03/21 03:48 PM)


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: BlackWidow]
    #21946647 - 07/15/15 10:16 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlackWidow said:
Let's make socialism an opt-in system. Anyone in the country who wants this sort of social program can sign up for it. Anyone who doesn't want to participate in socialism simply doesn't sign up for it. I would have no problem with that. The rich folk who want to be left alone and not taxed to hell can be and the ones who want socialism can have it.




Like how the Waltons opted out of paying inheritance tax yet still take advantage of all our socialist systems?

Do they get to opt out of being protected by our military too?  Or driving on our roads?  How exactly does one opt out of socialism?  Really?


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21946849 - 07/15/15 11:18 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Why should there be any inheritance tax at all? They paid taxes on all of it, probably more than once. Then when they die they are supposed to be taxed again?


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21946881 - 07/15/15 11:26 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Why should there be any inheritance tax at all? They paid taxes on all of it, probably more than once. Then when they die they are supposed to be taxed again?




I'm not arguing rather it should or shouldn't exist because that wasn't really my point.  It does exist and the Waltons dodged most of it thanks to loopholes in the tax code.

My point was you can't really opt out of living in a society (get it, socialism) and the benefits it gives unless you move out of the country.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


Edited by paperbackwriter (07/15/15 11:29 AM)


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21946909 - 07/15/15 11:35 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Why should there be any inheritance tax at all? They paid taxes on all of it, probably more than once. Then when they die they are supposed to be taxed again?




I'm not arguing rather it should or shouldn't exist because that wasn't really my point.  It does exist and the Waltons dodged most of it thanks to loopholes in the tax code.

My point was you can't really opt out of living in a society (get it, socialism) and the benefits it gives unless you move out of the country.




Yes, while our tax system subsidizes their business regularly. I've read several articles about them receiving millions just to set up shop and run small businesses out of town. If anything they take from the system.

The biggest advocates of 'Socialism for some' are the wealthiest beneficiaries in our society.


--------------------
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FARTS
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: BlackWidow]
    #21946921 - 07/15/15 11:37 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlackWidow said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

BlackWidow said:
I like free things, don't get me wrong, but where will this money to pay for all these things come from?




I'm so tired of this "socialism = free stuff" equivocation.

Read a damn book.



But that's what it is. That's why the only thing you can say is "read a book." If you're going to mock someone's intelligence, at the very least provide some sort of credible argument.

Let's make socialism an opt-in system. Anyone in the country who wants this sort of social program can sign up for it. Anyone who doesn't want to participate in socialism simply doesn't sign up for it. I would have no problem with that. The rich folk who want to be left alone and not taxed to hell can be and the ones who want socialism can have it.




Socialism is not so narrow a concept. You really have to read a few books to understand it. If you had, I think your view wouldn't be so myopic.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21946930 - 07/15/15 11:41 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I view it like mycelium, working together to grow something beautiful.

I also view my body as socialist :laugh:

It's turtles all the way down motherfuckers!


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21946955 - 07/15/15 11:49 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
I view it like mycelium, working together to grow something beautiful.

I also view my body as socialist :laugh:

It's turtles all the way down motherfuckers!




Turtles? See... complicated subject... I don't even know wtf you mean! Lmao

I view true Socialism as worker empowerment, and democracy within the workplace. You can't have a truly democratic culture when you spend most of your life in a private dictatorship. Cuba is finally attempting to transition into a truly Socialist society, where workers own the means of production. It's going to be fascinating to watch. The real problem with our modern understanding of Socialism is that most people view state capitalism as socialism. It is not.

http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/13918-the-new-cuba-a-beachhead-for-economic-democracy-we-should-support#


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


Edited by Bigbadwooof (07/15/15 11:51 AM)


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21947003 - 07/15/15 12:02 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

It was a bit tongue and cheek.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down

My point was that just as we're small cells organizing into a large collective which we call a body we also organize into a larger collective we call society.  I think socialism, as evolutionary process, is inevitable.

*edit*  Going to read the article you posted.

*edit two*  Fascinating indeed my friend :laugh:


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


Edited by paperbackwriter (07/15/15 12:10 PM)


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21947084 - 07/15/15 12:17 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

> I've read several articles about them receiving millions just to set up shop and run small businesses out of town.

Your complaint should be addressed to the ones who gave it. You expect wm to turn down money?

pbw
>loopholes in the tax code

And you blame wm for that too? Maybe global warming is their fault too?


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21947088 - 07/15/15 12:18 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Interesting, I've never heard that expression before. I think Socialism is hard to implement, because the culture really has to change. I think we have a few more rumbles to go with Capitalism before people realize how dysfunctional it is. Capitalism is a bipolar mistress. She's been menstruating lately.
Socialism really has to start from the ground up, and if the core philosophical understanding of Socialism is misguided, there can certainly be some terrible outcomes.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21947093 - 07/15/15 12:20 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
> I've read several articles about them receiving millions just to set up shop and run small businesses out of town.

Your complaint should be addressed to the ones who gave it. You expect wm to turn down money?

pbw
>loopholes in the tax code

And you blame wm for that too? Maybe global warming is their fault too?




I don't blame walmart, I blame Capitalism. That's how it works, buddy ;-)

It's called 'rent-seeking'; a natural progression of Capitalism.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21947190 - 07/15/15 12:43 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

For your information, socialism has been tried over and over. Pure socialism never works but you fellow travelers always want to try it again along with watered down communism. People will not work without a reward and you want to take the reward away.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21947293 - 07/15/15 01:05 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Pure socialism never works but you fellow travelers always want to try it again along with watered down communism.




I agree with you in part. Pure Socialism has never worked. But I think a best solution for everyone would be a mixture of Socialism and capitalism (hardly "watered down communism"). At least take care of the disabled and elderly and maybe help out the poorer workers with such things as food stamps.


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21947331 - 07/15/15 01:12 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
pbw
>loopholes in the tax code

And you blame wm for that too? Maybe global warming is their fault too?




As I said it wasn't really my point.  Not to be a dick but you're really grasping at straws (i.e. please don't strawman me bro!).


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21947396 - 07/15/15 01:29 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
For your information, socialism has been tried over and over. Pure socialism never works but you fellow travelers always want to try it again along with watered down communism. People will not work without a reward and you want to take the reward away.




Soviet Russia was a form of state Capitalism. The workers didn't own and run their workplace, the government did. What we're seeing in Cuba is a sign of something beautiful.

The real point is, Capitalism doesn't work. As we're seeing the world over. You may say that it's not 'pure capitalism' or 'true capitalism', but it is. Capitalism failed long ago, and has since undergone a balancing act between regulation and deregulation. When it fails, we regulate, when it's successful we deregulate, and it fails again. Unrestrained capitalism doesn't work.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


Edited by Bigbadwooof (07/15/15 01:30 PM)


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Le_Canard]
    #21947404 - 07/15/15 01:32 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Le_Canard said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Pure socialism never works but you fellow travelers always want to try it again along with watered down communism.




I agree with you in part. Pure Socialism has never worked. But I think a best solution for everyone would be a mixture of Socialism and capitalism (hardly "watered down communism"). At least take care of the disabled and elderly and maybe help out the poorer workers with such things as food stamps.




Pure Socialism has never occurred. Shit, people around here don't even know the meaning of Socialism. They think it means 'free stuff'.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21947411 - 07/15/15 01:34 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Lol a workplace democracy,  that's hilarious,  you don't think that would actually work in the real world do you?  The company would go bankrupt in 2 months.  Most workers are not qualified to make business decisions,  they'll just vote themselves raises until the company goes broke.  lol


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21947541 - 07/15/15 02:06 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Well, I go by the Merriam-Webster definition here....

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism


Maybe I'm off base here or something, I dunno.... :justdontknow:


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Shins]
    #21947647 - 07/15/15 02:30 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Lol a workplace democracy,  that's hilarious,  you don't think that would actually work in the real world do you?  The company would go bankrupt in 2 months.  Most workers are not qualified to make business decisions,  they'll just vote themselves raises until the company goes broke.  lol




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-determination

Quote:

Co-determination enjoys intractable support among Germans in principle. In practice, there are many calls for amendments to the laws in various ways. One of the main achievements seems to be that workers are more involved and have more of a voice in their workplaces, which sees a return in high productivity. Furthermore, industrial relations are more harmonious with low levels of strike actions, while better pay and conditions are secured for employees.




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitbestimmungsgesetz

Quote:

While this law was in some ways an extension of the codetermination law of 1951, it differed in key ways. Unlike the 1951 law, however, employees choose their representatives rather than being chosen by the national union; this had the effect of weakening union power.[1] However, employees can use codetermination to protect themselves against wage cuts, layoffs and restructuring, and for this reason, it is believed that wage structure in Germany is remarkably stable.[4]




Germany seems to be doing alright :shrug:


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Shins]
    #21947829 - 07/15/15 03:04 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Lol a workplace democracy,  that's hilarious,  you don't think that would actually work in the real world do you?  The company would go bankrupt in 2 months.  Most workers are not qualified to make business decisions,  they'll just vote themselves raises until the company goes broke.  lol




It can, and has worked. Refer back to my article about Cuba. Not only that, but refer to the German model of business.

I find it hilarious that you feel workers would vote themselves raises til the company went broke, when that's actually what CEO's have done, not workers. Even when businesses are failing CEO's give themselves massive bonuses.


--------------------
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Edited by Bigbadwooof (07/15/15 03:07 PM)


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21947887 - 07/15/15 03:17 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

refer to the German model of business.



you are aware german companies have a hierarchical structure right?


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21947896 - 07/15/15 03:18 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Woof is drunk again on his bottle of old commie 100 proof. He now thinks Russia had capitalism, no doubt the same for china and cuba?

LC, of course we need some safety nets, but not a hammock for the lazy to occupy the rest of their lives while others support them.


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21947944 - 07/15/15 03:27 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

What do you think Russia had? Socialism? Communism? No, they had state capitalism. The state owned the means of production, and decided what to do with the profits, and how the business was to be run. If the workers had owned their workplace, and decided how to appropriate the profits, and how businesses were to be run, they would have been Socialist in Marxian economics.

Socialism is a philosophy against the concentration of power in he hands of owners or political figures. It empowers the worker, not the government.


--------------------
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: psyconaught]
    #21947977 - 07/15/15 03:31 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

refer to the German model of business.



you are aware german companies have a hierarchical structure right?




Sure they do, but the power is much more equitably distributed. The workers have a powerful say in how business is run. They are not a purely socialist society by any means, but closer than we are. They are capitalist, as is all of Europe. Though there are varying degrees of socialist principals implemented. I think the heart of Socialism is lost, even amongst many Socialists.

Socialism doesn't mean 'free stuff'.


--------------------
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21948018 - 07/15/15 03:40 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

refer to the German model of business.



you are aware german companies have a hierarchical structure right?




Sure they do, but the power is much more equitably distributed. The workers have a powerful say in how business is run. They are not a purely socialist society by any means, but closer than we are. They are capitalist, as is all of Europe. Though there are varying degrees of socialist principals implemented. I think the heart of Socialism is lost, even amongst many Socialists.

Socialism doesn't mean 'free stuff'.



Company culture is very different than socialism. A state wide socialist society would need to be enforced by the government, this is what i (and most others) highly disagree with. However if a company wants to decentralize decision making on its own then more power to them, there are plenty of examples of companies like that here in the U.S.


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21948045 - 07/15/15 03:45 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Police, fire departments, streets, public education, military, how is this not statewide socialism?


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: paperbackwriter] * 1
    #21948062 - 07/15/15 03:48 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Police, fire departments, streets, public education, military, how is this not statewide socialism?



Socialism is the public as a whole controlling the means of production/distribution/exchange of goods and services. Government services on their own does not constitute socialism.


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: psyconaught]
    #21948095 - 07/15/15 03:53 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

refer to the German model of business.



you are aware german companies have a hierarchical structure right?




Sure they do, but the power is much more equitably distributed. The workers have a powerful say in how business is run. They are not a purely socialist society by any means, but closer than we are. They are capitalist, as is all of Europe. Though there are varying degrees of socialist principals implemented. I think the heart of Socialism is lost, even amongst many Socialists.

Socialism doesn't mean 'free stuff'.



Company culture is very different than socialism. A state wide socialist society would need to be enforced by the government, this is what i (and most others) highly disagree with. However if a company wants to decentralize decision making on its own then more power to them, there are plenty of examples of companies like that here in the U.S.




Under the Mitbestimmungsgesetz, in companies with over 2000 workers just under half the seats on a supervisory board are selected by the workers. In companies with over 500 staff one third of the supervisory must be composed of employee directors under the Drittelbeteiligungsgesetz. With under 500 staff, there is no automatic right of employees to board representation. However, any workplace with over five people allow workers various rights through elected works councils, and if the business has over 20 staff, employees may force the management into arbitration over redundancies.

AktG §87, requires that pay for the executive is set by the supervisory board. In 2009, this was amended so that (1) pay could not exceed the normal level without special justifications, and (2) if performance had deteriorated, executive pay could be reduced to an equitable level.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_company_law#Corporate_governance

This is state enforced...


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: psyconaught]
    #21948105 - 07/15/15 03:56 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Police, fire departments, streets, public education, military, how is this not statewide socialism?



Socialism is the public as a whole controlling the means of production/distribution/exchange of goods and services. Government services on their own does not constitute socialism.




"Socialism is where we all put our resources together and work for the common good of us all and not just for our own benefit. In this sense, we are sharing the wealth within society."

It certainly means what you said too.  But you're only looking at it as opposed to capitalism.


--------------------
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21948188 - 07/15/15 04:16 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Police, fire departments, streets, public education, military, how is this not statewide socialism?



Socialism is the public as a whole controlling the means of production/distribution/exchange of goods and services. Government services on their own does not constitute socialism.




"Socialism is where we all put our resources together and work for the common good of us all and not just for our own benefit. In this sense, we are sharing the wealth within society."

It certainly means what you said too.  But you're only looking at it as opposed to capitalism.



by definition socialism is a political and economic system. I mean by your extremely vague definition posted above then if i help my neighbor shovel his driveway then that is socialism, in which case the word is meaningless as it includes almost every single human interaction.


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: psyconaught]
    #21948237 - 07/15/15 04:28 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

As I said earlier, I view my body as a socialist construct.  Many working as one.

Wikipedia uses this as the caption definition.

Socialism: The radical idea of sharing.

I believe we can't help but share.  Maybe I've eaten too many mushrooms.  Maybe I've read too much Alan Watts.  Maybe I've listened to this song to many times...



:shrug:


--------------------
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: psyconaught]
    #21948242 - 07/15/15 04:29 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Police, fire departments, streets, public education, military, how is this not statewide socialism?



Socialism is the public as a whole controlling the means of production/distribution/exchange of goods and services. Government services on their own does not constitute socialism.




"Socialism is where we all put our resources together and work for the common good of us all and not just for our own benefit. In this sense, we are sharing the wealth within society."

It certainly means what you said too.  But you're only looking at it as opposed to capitalism.



by definition socialism is a political and economic system. I mean by your extremely vague definition posted above then if i help my neighbor shovel his driveway then that is socialism, in which case the word is meaningless as it includes almost every single human interaction.




To define Socialism, we should first look at the goal of Socialism, which is generally to eliminate Social classes. So you don't have drastically different classes or controlling powers. There are no masters under Socialism. Therefore, Socialism includes worker-owned workplaces, and government ownership by the people. Power is equitably distributed to eliminate corruption and coercion.

The first step to implementing Socialism is to overthrow the current power structure. Some countries have done this via violent revolution, and others have created Socialist parties. Most countries haven't gone too far beyond that to actually implement Socialiet principals. Cuba is finally starting to make a real transition, but they are doing some test runs first. It is no small task.


--------------------
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Edited by Bigbadwooof (07/15/15 04:32 PM)


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21948276 - 07/15/15 04:39 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Woofy thinks he knows what libertarianism is better than the libertarians so naturally he thinks he has the final word on what socialism is.

>To define Socialism, we should first look at the goal of Socialism, which is generally to eliminate Social classes.

Wrong, that's just your view.


--------------------
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21948398 - 07/15/15 05:08 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Woofy thinks he knows what libertarianism is better than the libertarians so naturally he thinks he has the final word on what socialism is.

>To define Socialism, we should first look at the goal of Socialism, which is generally to eliminate Social classes.

Wrong, that's just your view.




Actually, it is clearly the goal of Socialism, as defined by Marx. Care to make a more substantive argument?


--------------------
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21948489 - 07/15/15 05:26 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Marxism is not the same as socialism, its more like communism which he founded.


--------------------
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21948532 - 07/15/15 05:35 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Cuba is finally starting to make a real transition



Cuba? You mean that country run by a family of homicidal dictators? Fun fact they are currently moving away from the socialist model. They finally legalized small private business's in 2010


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21948591 - 07/15/15 05:46 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

Shins said:
Lol a workplace democracy,  that's hilarious,  you don't think that would actually work in the real world do you?  The company would go bankrupt in 2 months.  Most workers are not qualified to make business decisions,  they'll just vote themselves raises until the company goes broke.  lol




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-determination

Quote:

Co-determination enjoys intractable support among Germans in principle. In practice, there are many calls for amendments to the laws in various ways. One of the main achievements seems to be that workers are more involved and have more of a voice in their workplaces, which sees a return in high productivity. Furthermore, industrial relations are more harmonious with low levels of strike actions, while better pay and conditions are secured for employees.




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitbestimmungsgesetz

Quote:

While this law was in some ways an extension of the codetermination law of 1951, it differed in key ways. Unlike the 1951 law, however, employees choose their representatives rather than being chosen by the national union; this had the effect of weakening union power.[1] However, employees can use codetermination to protect themselves against wage cuts, layoffs and restructuring, and for this reason, it is believed that wage structure in Germany is remarkably stable.[4]




Germany seems to be doing alright :shrug:






That's not a workplace democracy,  it says workers can elect a representative to be on the board of directors. 

Its a good idea if you ask me, the company can get better feedback from its workers on the front lines.  The board of directors isn't obligated to listen to the worker representative though, within the law.  The board of directors can be almost like a democracy if you are on it.

I think it benefits both the company and workers because the company can better adress the feedback from the workers, and workers can relay needs and information.


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Shins]
    #21948630 - 07/15/15 05:53 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

Shins said:
Lol a workplace democracy,  that's hilarious,  you don't think that would actually work in the real world do you?  The company would go bankrupt in 2 months.  Most workers are not qualified to make business decisions,  they'll just vote themselves raises until the company goes broke.  lol




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-determination

Quote:

Co-determination enjoys intractable support among Germans in principle. In practice, there are many calls for amendments to the laws in various ways. One of the main achievements seems to be that workers are more involved and have more of a voice in their workplaces, which sees a return in high productivity. Furthermore, industrial relations are more harmonious with low levels of strike actions, while better pay and conditions are secured for employees.




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitbestimmungsgesetz

Quote:

While this law was in some ways an extension of the codetermination law of 1951, it differed in key ways. Unlike the 1951 law, however, employees choose their representatives rather than being chosen by the national union; this had the effect of weakening union power.[1] However, employees can use codetermination to protect themselves against wage cuts, layoffs and restructuring, and for this reason, it is believed that wage structure in Germany is remarkably stable.[4]




Germany seems to be doing alright :shrug:






That's not a workplace democracy,  it says workers can elect a representative to be on the board of directors. 

Its a good idea if you ask me, the company can get better feedback from its workers on the front lines.  The board of directors isn't obligated to listen to the worker representative though, within the law.  The board of directors can be almost like a democracy if you are on it.

I think it benefits both the company and workers because the company can better adress the feedback from the workers, and workers can relay needs and information.




The workers vote on their representatives. It's more in-line with a representative democracy, but the workers can remove their representatives too, just like we do with congress. It is an excellent model. It's like unionizatiin without union bosses. I wish we would do that here.


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: psyconaught]
    #21948635 - 07/15/15 05:54 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Cuba is finally starting to make a real transition



Cuba? You mean that country run by a family of homicidal dictators? Fun fact they are currently moving away from the socialist model. They finally legalized small private business's in 2010




Did you read the link I posted about Cuba?


--------------------
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21948652 - 07/15/15 05:57 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Marxism is not the same as socialism, its more like communism which he founded.




You really aren't terribly familiar with left-wing politics, are you? You should devote as much time to understanding these things as you do to understanding right-wing politics. Then again, maybe you do.

I am not an expert, but I do try my best to understand both sides, as they both have good points to make.


--------------------
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21948654 - 07/15/15 05:57 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
>Blowing those fucks up is a social benefit the whole world takes advantage of

Again revealing your racist hatred toward arabs.



Arab isn't a race and Arab isn't my issue.  Iranians aren't Arabs, are they?  Pakistanis aren't Arabs, are they?  The Taliban aren't Arabs, are they?  Boko Haram aren't Arabs, are they?  Jemaah Islamiyah aren't Arabs, are they?


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21948663 - 07/15/15 05:59 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Marxism is not the same as socialism, its more like communism which he founded.




They are all the same.  There is no relevant distinction


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21948676 - 07/15/15 06:02 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
What do you think Russia had? Socialism? Communism? No, they had state capitalism. The state owned the means of production, and decided what to do with the profits, and how the business was to be run. If the workers had owned their workplace, and decided how to appropriate the profits, and how businesses were to be run, they would have been Socialist in Marxian economics.

Socialism is a philosophy against the concentration of power in he hands of owners or political figures. It empowers the worker, not the government.






You're confused young one.

when the state owns the means of production,  that's socialism/communism.  Its always done by saying its for the good ofnall and betterment of society, they always trumpet humanitarian causes but ehat happens is what you say; power concentrates in the hands of political figures and the well connected.  This is the ultimate danger and moral hazard of socialism; it concentrates power into the hands of a few.

there is nothing Cspitslist about it. Calling it "state Cspitslism" is s revelation of the textbook cognitive dissonance you are experiencing.  Sll your life you were told to blame capitalism,  unaware that what you eere complaining about was actually the consequences of too much socialism.  Capitalism aims to level the playig field and give everyone a fair shot in an open market, it has absolutely nothing to do with centealizing power,  the people who get power and wealth are supposed to have earned it by selling a prodect or service that benefits humanity and compells them to buy because of the value it adds to their standard of living.  Socialism aims to legislate people money who mever earned it and never provided any product ehich helped improve society.  Bankers have legislayed themselves unlimited amonts of money and use it to lord over and leech ofg of society.  It was thr socialists who allowed those laws to pass.  It was in the name of economic stability and prosperity for all, of course but in reality it has turned out to be a nightmare ehich is anything but the utopias they promise.


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Shins]
    #21948745 - 07/15/15 06:20 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

You believe that capitalism means a level playing field? So the playing field between Paris Hilton and Tyrone Ghetto Kid is the same?

Capitalism = inequality and power concentration, plain and simple.

This is true almost by definition. A Capitalist is a person who capitalises on the labor of another person. They are raised up further and further, and the surplus is concentrated. This is obvious.

You can argue for the merits of Capitalism, but don't spout this nonsense about a 'level playing field'.


--------------------
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21948767 - 07/15/15 06:26 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
>Blowing those fucks up is a social benefit the whole world takes advantage of

Again revealing your racist hatred toward arabs.



Arab isn't a race and Arab isn't my issue.  Iranians aren't Arabs, are they?  Pakistanis aren't Arabs, are they?  The Taliban aren't Arabs, are they?  Boko Haram aren't Arabs, are they?  Jemaah Islamiyah aren't Arabs, are they?




You carefully did not quote the part where I said you also hated everyone over there who is not a jew. You hate arabs and brown people in general. Your racism is plain to see.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21948776 - 07/15/15 06:28 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Marxism is not the same as socialism, its more like communism which he founded.




They are all the same.  There is no relevant distinction




:lolsy:

You still think the ACA is socialism, stop spreading your misapparenhensions as facts.

One could easily argue There's a bigger gap between socialism and communism than socialism and capitalism.


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21948856 - 07/15/15 06:42 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
>Blowing those fucks up is a social benefit the whole world takes advantage of

Again revealing your racist hatred toward arabs.



Arab isn't a race and Arab isn't my issue.  Iranians aren't Arabs, are they?  Pakistanis aren't Arabs, are they?  The Taliban aren't Arabs, are they?  Boko Haram aren't Arabs, are they?  Jemaah Islamiyah aren't Arabs, are they?




You carefully did not quote the part where I said you also hated everyone over there who is not a jew. You hate arabs and brown people in general. Your racism is plain to see.




How ironic... Stoney's accusing someone else of racism...


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21948920 - 07/15/15 06:58 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I want equal rights for everyone unlike you left wing types who want the opposite. What is ironic is you trying to redefine words and telling people they don't know the meaning of things.


--------------------
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21948979 - 07/15/15 07:15 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
I want equal rights for everyone unlike you left wing types who want the opposite. What is ironic is you trying to redefine words and telling people they don't know the meaning of things.




What words have I 'redefined'? I asked for one of our Libertarian friends to give me their definition of 'Libertarianism'. They say 'Constitutionalism'... This is clearly wrong, as Libertarianism is a philosophy that can be applied to countries other than the United States (and has been).

You run around with all of your misinformation and expect everyone else to fall in line with it. That's not the way life works. Why don't you define Socialism for us, from your extensive research on the subject.

Capitalism is not a 'level playing field', as I have said. If you are an advocate of Capitalism, at least advocate for it based on it's actual merits. Our whole society celebrates Capitalism. They would do well to understand exactly what it is.


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21949001 - 07/15/15 07:22 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

>You run around with all of your misinformation and expect everyone else to fall in line with it

Lol, look who is talking!!!

I notice you dodged what I said about liberals not wanting equality. Probably because you know its true.

>Capitalism is not a 'level playing field', as I have said

Pure capitalism does not exist anywhere nor pure socialism, communism or Marxism.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21949146 - 07/15/15 08:01 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Right, but Capitalism doesn't aim to be a level playing field in any way... I don't know what you're talking about as far as liberals and equality, but I think you'd be hard pressed to argue that conservatives desire any form of equality. They don't even want marriage equality...


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof] * 1
    #21949434 - 07/15/15 09:24 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Soviet Russia was a form of state Capitalism.




LMFAO! really? The Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics was capitalist? Noooo, they weren't socialist at all...:rolleyes:

I've noticed that the left has been doing this for awhile now, redefining words to fit their agenda. When their programs fail, they just change the terminology so they can blame something else...


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` [Re: Bigbadwooof] * 1
    #21949457 - 07/15/15 09:32 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

`


Edited by BlackWidow (02/03/21 03:48 PM)


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: BlackWidow]
    #21950140 - 07/16/15 12:31 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlackWidow said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

BlackWidow said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
I'm so tired of this "socialism = free stuff" equivocation.

Read a damn book.



But that's what it is. That's why the only thing you can say is "read a book." If you're going to mock someone's intelligence, at the very least provide some sort of credible argument.

Let's make socialism an opt-in system. Anyone in the country who wants this sort of social program can sign up for it. Anyone who doesn't want to participate in socialism simply doesn't sign up for it. I would have no problem with that. The rich folk who want to be left alone and not taxed to hell can be and the ones who want socialism can have it.




Socialism is not so narrow a concept. You really have to read a few books to understand it. If you had, I think your view wouldn't be so myopic.



I've read bits of the communist manifesto. Sure, it's an amazing utopian system on paper but let's take a look at how well it worked out in the real world.




Socialist principals only failed in countries that attempted to implement them via violent revolution. The leaders of violent uprisings generally assume the role of dictator. Dictatorships are dysfunctional.


--------------------
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: BlackWidow]
    #21951056 - 07/16/15 09:17 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlackWidow said:

I've read bits of the communist manifesto. Sure, it's an amazing utopian system on paper but let's take a look at how well it worked out in the real world.




Exhibit A: equating socialism with communism.

By the way, the Manifesto can be read in an hour. Maybe reading is just hard for you, which I understand.


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21951177 - 07/16/15 09:53 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
>Blowing those fucks up is a social benefit the whole world takes advantage of

Again revealing your racist hatred toward arabs.



Arab isn't a race and Arab isn't my issue.  Iranians aren't Arabs, are they?  Pakistanis aren't Arabs, are they?  The Taliban aren't Arabs, are they?  Boko Haram aren't Arabs, are they?  Jemaah Islamiyah aren't Arabs, are they?




You carefully did not quote the part where I said you also hated everyone over there who is not a jew. You hate arabs and brown people in general. Your racism is plain to see.



Muslim is not a race.  There are Arab Jews and Arab Christians and Arab Atheists.  I have no problem with them.  The Iranians aren't Arab and I hate the Iranian Musllims more than any other Muslims.  Your ignorance is impressive.


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21951191 - 07/16/15 09:55 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

BlackWidow said:

I've read bits of the communist manifesto. Sure, it's an amazing utopian system on paper but let's take a look at how well it worked out in the real world.




Exhibit A: equating socialism with communism.

By the way, the Manifesto can be read in an hour. Maybe reading is just hard for you, which I understand.



I've read it.  There is no substantial difference between communism, socialism and fascism.  State control of the economy.  All differences are irrelevant


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21951199 - 07/16/15 09:57 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Arabs are indeed a race and ethnic group, you hate all arabs and all brown people. Your statement that killing them was a "public service" would get most people banned.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21951224 - 07/16/15 10:01 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Arabs are an ethnic group.  Persians are an ethnic group.  Indonesians are an ethnic group.  The only people I loathe are Muslim freakshows.  It has nothing to do with race.  Louis Farrakhan is a Muslim freakshow and I hate him too.  Is he an Arab?


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21951230 - 07/16/15 10:02 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Do you back off from your statement that they should be killed as a public service?


--------------------
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21951271 - 07/16/15 10:11 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

BlackWidow said:

I've read bits of the communist manifesto. Sure, it's an amazing utopian system on paper but let's take a look at how well it worked out in the real world.




Exhibit A: equating socialism with communism.

By the way, the Manifesto can be read in an hour. Maybe reading is just hard for you, which I understand.



I've read it.  There is no substantial difference between communism, socialism and fascism.  State control of the economy.  All differences are irrelevant




Irrelevant why? Because you have to make a dichotomy of "capitalism, and then everything else?"

Besides, communism doesn't even HAVE a state.


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` [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21951298 - 07/16/15 10:18 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

`


Edited by BlackWidow (02/03/21 03:47 PM)


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21951358 - 07/16/15 10:31 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Do you back off from your statement that they should be killed as a public service?



Radical Muslim freakshow murderers like Boko Haram and ISIS and al Q and whatever the name of that one in Indonesia is?  Absolutely not.  Kill them all.


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21951372 - 07/16/15 10:34 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

BlackWidow said:

I've read bits of the communist manifesto. Sure, it's an amazing utopian system on paper but let's take a look at how well it worked out in the real world.




Exhibit A: equating socialism with communism.

By the way, the Manifesto can be read in an hour. Maybe reading is just hard for you, which I understand.



I've read it.  There is no substantial difference between communism, socialism and fascism.  State control of the economy.  All differences are irrelevant




Irrelevant why? Because you have to make a dichotomy of "capitalism, and then everything else?"

Besides, communism doesn't even HAVE a state.



What is North Korea?  Capitalism doesn't have a state.  It sure as shit isn't us.

What do you perceive to be the relevant distinction between the three of them?  They are triplets that differ in the number of freckles they have.


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21951400 - 07/16/15 10:41 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

>Stonehenge said:
Do you back off from your statement that they should be killed as a public service?

>Absolutely not.  Kill them all.

All except the jews of course. You are quite a piece of work.


--------------------
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: BlackWidow]
    #21951444 - 07/16/15 10:53 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlackWidow said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

BlackWidow said:

I've read bits of the communist manifesto. Sure, it's an amazing utopian system on paper but let's take a look at how well it worked out in the real world.




Exhibit A: equating socialism with communism.

By the way, the Manifesto can be read in an hour. Maybe reading is just hard for you, which I understand.



Why not actually add something to the discussion? Using personal attacks because you don't have a valid response doesn't exactly work in your favor.




Your response perfectly exemplifies why people are ignorant about socialism, and communism. And I don't understand why someone who's obviously interested in the subject can't be bothered to actually learn about it by reading a book that might take up your lunch break.

If you want to take it as an attack, go right ahead.


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21951462 - 07/16/15 10:58 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
What is North Korea?  Capitalism doesn't have a state.  It sure as shit isn't us.

What do you perceive to be the relevant distinction between the three of them?  They are triplets that differ in the number of freckles they have.




Capitalism doesn't need to be without a state.

Here's a boiled down version:

Capitalism - private means production
socialism - public means of production via the state
fascism - private means of production colluding with state
communism - public means of production, no state whatsoever

Let me know which of those dozen words confused you.


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21951537 - 07/16/15 11:22 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Firstly, Fascism is far distinct from the other two. Fascism allows private ownership of big businesses, though the state does control many important businesses. Fascism, by virtue, punishes dissent. Fascism is nation specific, and highly nationalistic, which generally leads to racism against those perceived to be "immigrants". Fascism limits free speech so 'damaging things' (As determined by the government) are not talked about (like the glorification of drug use on tv). Fascism necessarily has a central leader, who is supposed to be held highly accountable for any mistakes he makes as leader. It is always run by dictatorship. Fascism is also isolationist, attempting to function as completely as possible without reliance on other nations.

Neither communism nor Socialism are isolationist, or beligerantly nationalistic philosophies. They are in no way meant to be dictatorships. Freedom of speech is not infringed upon by these philosophies.

Communism is really irrelivant, because it couldn't be implemented directly from any system but Socialism, and it is not likely to be implemented regardless. Socialism is the necessary result of Capitalism. As you shall see shortly. Stay tuned, bro :wink:


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21951543 - 07/16/15 11:24 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
What is North Korea?  Capitalism doesn't have a state.  It sure as shit isn't us.

What do you perceive to be the relevant distinction between the three of them?  They are triplets that differ in the number of freckles they have.




Capitalism doesn't need to be without a state.

Here's a boiled down version:

Capitalism - private means production
socialism - public means of production via the state
fascism - private means of production colluding with state
communism - public means of production, no state whatsoever

Let me know which of those dozen words confused you.




That was a nice simple way to lay it out. Means of production is really what it's all about.


--------------------
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21951805 - 07/16/15 12:22 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
I believe we can't help but share.




What about me then? Do you think I share alot? :laugh: Where do I fit into your nice paradigm?:tongue2:


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21951909 - 07/16/15 12:44 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
communism - public means of production, no state whatsoever

Let me know which of those dozen words confused you.




What especially confused me was the words "public production" in the same sentence as "no state whatsoever".


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Galba Cubensis]
    #21951974 - 07/16/15 01:03 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Galba Cubensis said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
communism - public means of production, no state whatsoever

Let me know which of those dozen words confused you.




What especially confused me was the words "public production" in the same sentence as "no state whatsoever".




That's why communism is usually looked at as utopian fantasy. The idea is that the public callls the shots without need a state for coercion.


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21951982 - 07/16/15 01:04 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
What is North Korea?  Capitalism doesn't have a state.  It sure as shit isn't us.

What do you perceive to be the relevant distinction between the three of them?  They are triplets that differ in the number of freckles they have.




Capitalism doesn't need to be without a state.

Here's a boiled down version:

Capitalism - private means production
socialism - public means of production via the state
fascism - private means of production colluding with state
communism - public means of production, no state whatsoever

Let me know which of those dozen words confused you.




That was a nice simple way to lay it out. Means of production is really what it's all about.




Yet nobody, even seasoned keyboard warriors like zappa, understands that.


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Galba Cubensis]
    #21952274 - 07/16/15 02:35 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Galba Cubensis said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
I believe we can't help but share.




What about me then? Do you think I share alot? :laugh: Where do I fit into your nice paradigm?:tongue2:




You shared a lot of bad advice in mushroom cult  :lmafo:


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21952569 - 07/16/15 03:48 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

One other aspect of this is that communism is meant to be worldwide. Socialism is a national system, Communism is international. Communism would only arise after Socialism has been around for a long time, and spread worldwide. Socialism would develop the culture required for Communism to arise.
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Quote:

Galba Cubensis said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
I believe we can't help but share.




What about me then? Do you think I share alot? :laugh: Where do I fit into your nice paradigm?:tongue2:




You shared a lot of bad advice in mushroom cult  :lmafo:




Ouch! lmao
He wouldn't be the first, or last! lmao

My first grow someone on here convinced me to start with a LC without a PC or a Flowhood! What a disaster.


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Edited by Bigbadwooof (07/16/15 03:50 PM)


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21952848 - 07/16/15 05:01 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
What is North Korea?  Capitalism doesn't have a state.  It sure as shit isn't us.

What do you perceive to be the relevant distinction between the three of them?  They are triplets that differ in the number of freckles they have.




Capitalism doesn't need to be without a state.

Here's a boiled down version:

Capitalism - private means production
socialism - public means of production via the state
fascism - private means of production colluding with state
communism - public means of production, no state whatsoever

Let me know which of those dozen words confused you.




That was a nice simple way to lay it out. Means of production is really what it's all about.



It is actually stupid as fuck.  Communism doesn't exist without total state control.  Communism is not anarchism.


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21953565 - 07/16/15 08:06 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Here are the latest results from fox. It looks like hitlery is slowly sinking. Can she stop the slide or is she doomed already?

On the Democratic side, Clinton captures 59 percent among Democratic primary voters compared to 19 percent for Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders.  Last month, 61 percent backed Clinton and 15 percent Sanders (June 21-23).


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21953733 - 07/16/15 08:48 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
That's why communism is usually looked at as utopian fantasy. The idea is that the public callls the shots without need a state for coercion.




:crazy: Wow, just wow! You seriously have alot of learning to do! :frown:

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
You shared a lot of bad advice in mushroom cult  :lmafo:




Haha, funny, pro dodge though hipster:grin:


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21953855 - 07/16/15 09:13 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
What is North Korea?  Capitalism doesn't have a state.  It sure as shit isn't us.

What do you perceive to be the relevant distinction between the three of them?  They are triplets that differ in the number of freckles they have.




Capitalism doesn't need to be without a state.

Here's a boiled down version:

Capitalism - private means production
socialism - public means of production via the state
fascism - private means of production colluding with state
communism - public means of production, no state whatsoever

Let me know which of those dozen words confused you.




That was a nice simple way to lay it out. Means of production is really what it's all about.



It is actually stupid as fuck.  Communism doesn't exist without total state control.  Communism is not anarchism.




Communism is supposed to be a completely decentralized form of self governance. There are different communist philosophies, which include Libertarian Marxism and Anarchist Communism. You can read about them on wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism#Libertarian_Marxism

Quote:

An important concept in Marxism is socialization vs. nationalization. Nationalization is merely state ownership of property, whereas socialization is actual control and management of property by society. Marxism considers socialization its goal, and considers nationalization a tactical issue, with state ownership still being in the realm of the capitalist mode of production. In the words of Engels: "the transformation [...] into State-ownership does not do away with the capitalistic nature of the productive forces. [...] State-ownership of the productive forces is not the solution of the conflict, but concealed within it are the technical conditions that form the elements of that solution".[29] This has led some Marxist groups and tendencies to label states such as the Soviet Union, based on nationalization, as state capitalist.[30




You're referring to violent Socialist revolutions that never really make it beyond capturing the state and imposing a dictatorship. Once they seize power they need to get the country rolling again, so they continue with the same general social structure as they had under Capitalism, but they replace the old rulers (the capitalists) with governmental figures, and to some extent they distribute goods more equitably. They attempt to use strict control to implement cultural changes that, in reality, must arise organically over time.

If you look at Socialist countries that have formed parties and worked their way to power via the democratic system, it is clear that their method is far more successful and results in gradual cultural changes.

I personally don't believe that attempting to impose Socialism via conquering the state (Democratically or violently) is necessarily the only or best route. Even here in America we're seeing community owned utilities popping up, worker cooperatives, landshares, etc. This changes the culture, and possibly creates the atmosphere required to implement real changes in economic structure without the use of force or policy changes.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
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Edited by Bigbadwooof (07/16/15 09:14 PM)


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21954243 - 07/16/15 11:07 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Here are the latest results from fox. It looks like hitlery is slowly sinking. Can she stop the slide or is she doomed already?

On the Democratic side, Clinton captures 59 percent among Democratic primary voters compared to 19 percent for Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders.  Last month, 61 percent backed Clinton and 15 percent Sanders (June 21-23).




if anyone needs a reason not to vote for Hillary or Jeb, here's one:

http://pinkmonkey.com/dl/library1/sense.pdf

pg 9-16


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Galba Cubensis]
    #21954997 - 07/17/15 07:26 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I can elaborate on the can't help but sharing comment but honestly I think you just came here to troll because I gave you a zero (which I removed by the way).

Seriously though, try breathing without sharing or being shared with.  We're all connected and if having that perspective makes me a 'hipster' so be it.


--------------------
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To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21955032 - 07/17/15 07:38 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Smarter than you look, nice. Yeah we all connected allright, connected to Gates', Trump's, Kissinger's and the rest of the scums bank accounts. Thats where we connected... Idc about the rating though, just the attitude... So feel free to add it back, as you can see Im building up quite the collection;)


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21955109 - 07/17/15 08:10 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
What is North Korea?  Capitalism doesn't have a state.  It sure as shit isn't us.

What do you perceive to be the relevant distinction between the three of them?  They are triplets that differ in the number of freckles they have.




Capitalism doesn't need to be without a state.

Here's a boiled down version:

Capitalism - private means production
socialism - public means of production via the state
fascism - private means of production colluding with state
communism - public means of production, no state whatsoever

Let me know which of those dozen words confused you.




That was a nice simple way to lay it out. Means of production is really what it's all about.



It is actually stupid as fuck.  Communism doesn't exist without total state control.  Communism is not anarchism.




You don't need a state to have a public.

Quote:

In political and social sciences, communism (from Latin communis – common, universal)[1][2] is a social, political, and economic ideology and movement whose ultimate goal is the establishment of the communist society, which is a socioeconomic order structured upon the common ownership of the means of production, absence of social classes, money,[3][4] and the state.




from Wikipedia

And like woof said, socialism is the transitional system.


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21955658 - 07/17/15 11:02 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I think the segment I quoted from wikipedia put the argument that Communism = State Ownership to bed. Part of it was a quote directly from Engels himself.


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21955697 - 07/17/15 11:16 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

The paradox of communism is that it takes a totalitarian state in order to enforce everything.  Communism cannot exist in the real world on a large scale.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Galba Cubensis]
    #21955729 - 07/17/15 11:29 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Galba Cubensis said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
That's why communism is usually looked at as utopian fantasy. The idea is that the public callls the shots without need a state for coercion.




:crazy: Wow, just wow! You seriously have alot of learning to do! :frown:

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
You shared a lot of bad advice in mushroom cult  :lmafo:




Haha, funny, pro dodge though hipster:grin:




Learning about what? The general attitude towards communism?

Also, 'alot' isn't a word.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Shins]
    #21955743 - 07/17/15 11:33 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
The paradox of communism is that it takes a totalitarian state in order to enforce everything.  Communism cannot exist in the real world on a large scale.




Maybe it can, and maybe it can't. I can't help but think that you're working back from 'I don't like Communism', rather than trying to understand it.

For now, we will have some form of slightly Socialistic Capitalism. I believe that by the next economic crash, which isn't too far off, we will start to see either Socialism or Fascism take over. Capitalism will certainly not have the last say. Capitalism clearly doesn't work, and I can't really imagine how anyone ever thought it would work.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


Edited by Bigbadwooof (07/17/15 11:36 AM)


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Shins]
    #21955754 - 07/17/15 11:38 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
The paradox of communism is that it takes a totalitarian state in order to enforce everything.  Communism cannot exist in the real world on a large scale.




That's a fallacy. You're just assuming that social creatures can't show solidarity unless they're forced to.

If that were the case, human beings would be extinct. You're right in a sense, though, which is why Marx said it will take years of socialism on a global scale to cultivate a culture of collectivism. Then communism may have a chance.

Being real though: the public doesn't stand a chance at controlling the means of production until we have free energy (meaning fusion power, or hyper efficient nuclear power, vast solar, etc).


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21955766 - 07/17/15 11:40 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Being real though: the public doesn't stand a chance at controlling the means of production until we have free energy (meaning fusion power, or hyper efficient nuclear power, vast solar, etc).




Why not? The way I see it, if it can be held privately, it can be held Publicly, or Socially.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21955777 - 07/17/15 11:45 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Being real though: the public doesn't stand a chance at controlling the means of production until we have free energy (meaning fusion power, or hyper efficient nuclear power, vast solar, etc).




Why not? The way I see it, if it can be held privately, it can be held Publicly, or Socially.




I'm not sayings it's impossible, but until the people get a foothold into something that was once a trillion dollar commodity, like energy, we won't realize we can do it.

Either that, or automation will erase what's left of the job market and governments will be forced to create welfare states to keep people from revolting.

Democracy won't get us there (at least before we run out of resources), it's gonna take a world changing event.


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21955821 - 07/17/15 11:57 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I agree. However, Democracy could be a complementary tool for bringing about great changes when the time comes, without the necessity violent revolution. Of course it may be violent regardless.

I've been watching the progress with nuclear fusion for the past few years. It's been moving along slowly but surely. If we were serious about energy, we would invest a lot more money into this research.

On a side note, something else that will change the game a bit is asteroid mining. I'm sure you've heard about this. There is a company that will be capable of mining asteroids in the near future. Our resources may actually expand beyond the limits of our planet! :smile:

I think, hypothetically of course, if the budget was spent in a purely democratic way, NASA would get a muuuch larger chunk than it does, and the military would take a nice big pay cut.

As far as energy though, it is interesting to see that some communities in America have taken over their electrical utilities publicly, and in some places they are working on public internet utilities, etc. Even small scale urban farming (Small plots divvied for personal use) is being turned into a public venture.

As I said earlier, I think Socialist principles can be implemented a lot smoother and faster if we stop relying on the government to do it for us. Especially in a country where government is despised as it is.


Edited by Bigbadwooof (07/17/15 11:58 AM)


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21955829 - 07/17/15 12:00 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Capitalism clearly doesn't work, and I can't really imagine how anyone ever thought it would work.



i agree. Who in their right mind would have ever thought that freedom of choice would ever work??? Fucking fools.


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: psyconaught]
    #21955835 - 07/17/15 12:01 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Capitalism clearly doesn't work, and I can't really imagine how anyone ever thought it would work.



i agree. Who in their right mind would have ever thought that freedom of choice would ever work??? Fucking fools.




Freedom of choice? Please elaborate.


--------------------
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FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21955893 - 07/17/15 12:17 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Capitalism clearly doesn't work, and I can't really imagine how anyone ever thought it would work.



i agree. Who in their right mind would have ever thought that freedom of choice would ever work??? Fucking fools.




Freedom of choice? Please elaborate.



The basis of capitalism is the market (made up of individuals) deciding what does and doesnt work. They achieve this by having the freedom of choice to patronize the business's they see fit, socialism removes this freedom of choice by concentrating all production means to the state. Personally i enjoy the variety of choices i have in the marketplace, and would be absolutely horrified if the state took them over.


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: psyconaught]
    #21955969 - 07/17/15 12:39 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

The town I live in has a public garden.  We get to plant what we want.  I don't see how choice is being taken from us.


--------------------
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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21956045 - 07/17/15 01:00 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
The town I live in has a public garden.  We get to plant what we want.  I don't see how choice is being taken from us.



the difference is that the town isn't preventing anyone from planting their own private gardens.


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: psyconaught]
    #21956297 - 07/17/15 01:57 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Capitalism clearly doesn't work, and I can't really imagine how anyone ever thought it would work.



i agree. Who in their right mind would have ever thought that freedom of choice would ever work??? Fucking fools.




Freedom of choice? Please elaborate.



The basis of capitalism is the market (made up of individuals) deciding what does and doesnt work. They achieve this by having the freedom of choice to patronize the business's they see fit, socialism removes this freedom of choice by concentrating all production means to the state. Personally i enjoy the variety of choices i have in the marketplace, and would be absolutely horrified if the state took them over.




Socialism does not get rid of choice. The basis of Capitalism is Capital and Capitalists capitalizing on their accumulated industrial means, or wealth. They receive disproportionate revenue from the labor of the people, because they own the capital and they capitalize on it.

The premise of a capitalist society is that continual expansion is forever possible. It is not. We live in a finite world. If a business doesn't grow, it dies.

In a capitalist society, those born into wealth are born capitalists. From birth they are capitalizing on wealth. Over generations this makes the economy top-heavy, and it comes crashing down. We are witnessing an economy that has collapsed, and will not recover.

In order for any economy to function people have to spend money. In order for Capitalism to function, people have to be fanatically materialistic, and have the money to continually spend on consumer goods. This is unrealistic. Firstly, people no longer have the money (though they are borrowing at a rate unheard of in world history!), and as I said earlier, we live in a finite world that can't support this sort of ever increasing consumerism.

Capitalism is not realistic.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: psyconaught]
    #21956314 - 07/17/15 02:00 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
The town I live in has a public garden.  We get to plant what we want.  I don't see how choice is being taken from us.



the difference is that the town isn't preventing anyone from planting their own private gardens.




Socialism doesn't do that either. In economic terms 'private property' doesn't refer to that which is individually owned by a person. It refers to private industrial ownership.


--------------------
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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21956336 - 07/17/15 02:05 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Socialism does not get rid of choice.



oh. You said it so it must be true.

Quote:

They receive disproportionate revenue from the labor of the people, because they own the capital and they capitalize on it.



they are also taking larger risks with their property. So they should also get larger rewards.

Quote:

The premise of a capitalist society is that continual expansion is forever possible. It is not. We live in a finite world. If a business doesn't grow, it dies.



this isn't true at all.

Quote:

In a capitalist society, those born into wealth are born capitalists. From birth they are capitalizing on wealth. Over generations this makes the economy top-heavy, and it comes crashing down. We are witnessing an economy that has collapsed, and will not recover.



these collapses happen when large corporate interests become intermingled with the government. We currently have private gains and public losses. This is not capitalism.

Quote:

In order for any economy to function people have to spend money. In order for Capitalism to function, people have to be fanatically materialistic,



Once again, not true. I don't know why everything has to be taken to its extremes. If my neighbor opens an apple juice stand because he has an apple tree that is capitalism, it has nothing to do with being fanatically materialistic.

Quote:

we live in a finite world that can't support this sort of ever increasing consumerism.population



this is the issue. Even if with go with full bore communism this issue won't be solved.

Quote:

Capitalism is not realistic.



capitalism is what allows resources to be unitized in unique, efficient, and meaningful ways.


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21956344 - 07/17/15 02:06 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
The town I live in has a public garden.  We get to plant what we want.  I don't see how choice is being taken from us.



the difference is that the town isn't preventing anyone from planting their own private gardens.




Socialism doesn't do that either. In economic terms 'private property' doesn't refer to that which is individually owned by a person. It refers to private industrial ownership.



socialism prevents me from selling my gardens carrots on the corner.


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: psyconaught]
    #21956351 - 07/17/15 02:08 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
The town I live in has a public garden.  We get to plant what we want.  I don't see how choice is being taken from us.



the difference is that the town isn't preventing anyone from planting their own private gardens.




If all the gardens were private only private interests could plant gardens.

I don't see how that encourages freedom.


--------------------
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To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21956361 - 07/17/15 02:09 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

Shins said:
The paradox of communism is that it takes a totalitarian state in order to enforce everything.  Communism cannot exist in the real world on a large scale.




Maybe it can, and maybe it can't. I can't help but think that you're working back from 'I don't like Communism', rather than trying to understand it.

For now, we will have some form of slightly Socialistic Capitalism. I believe that by the next economic crash, which isn't too far off, we will start to see either Socialism or Fascism take over. Capitalism will certainly not have the last say. Capitalism clearly doesn't work, and I can't really imagine how anyone ever thought it would work.






You cannot compel everyone in a nation to voluntarily participate in communism,  you need a authoritarian government in order to force everyone to participate. 

This is why communism on a nation wide scale is impossible;  it REQUIRES a state to force everyone to play by the rules,  but in doing so it negates itself as a textbook definition of communism.



on a small scale it can work.  Smaller, voluntary communities can .get together and voluntarily self regulate.  Some examples are the omish, Mennonites,  hudderites and other similar communes.  They only work as "communism" because it is completely voluntary,  you're free to join or leave as you wish.

"Communism"  on a national svale cannot work because it is INvoluntary;  everyone MUST participate and thus there must be a governing enforcement body in order to force people who do not wish to participate to participate.


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Shins]
    #21956376 - 07/17/15 02:12 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

Shins said:
The paradox of communism is that it takes a totalitarian state in order to enforce everything.  Communism cannot exist in the real world on a large scale.




Maybe it can, and maybe it can't. I can't help but think that you're working back from 'I don't like Communism', rather than trying to understand it.

For now, we will have some form of slightly Socialistic Capitalism. I believe that by the next economic crash, which isn't too far off, we will start to see either Socialism or Fascism take over. Capitalism will certainly not have the last say. Capitalism clearly doesn't work, and I can't really imagine how anyone ever thought it would work.






You cannot compel everyone in a nation to voluntarily participate in communism,  you need a authoritarian government in order to force everyone to participate. 

This is why communism on a nation wide scale is impossible;  it REQUIRES a state to force everyone to play by the rules,  but in doing so it negates itself as a textbook definition of communism.



on a small scale it can work.  Smaller, voluntary communities can .get together and voluntarily self regulate.  Some examples are the omish, Mennonites,  hudderites and other similar communes.  They only work as "communism" because it is completely voluntary,  you're free to join or leave as you wish.

"Communism"  on a national svale cannot work because it is INvoluntary;  everyone MUST participate and thus there must be a governing enforcement body in order to force people who do not wish to participate to participate.




Whether Communism could or couldn't work is not a concern of mine. I am not arguing for Communism.


--------------------
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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21956379 - 07/17/15 02:12 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
The town I live in has a public garden.  We get to plant what we want.  I don't see how choice is being taken from us.



the difference is that the town isn't preventing anyone from planting their own private gardens.




If all the gardens were private only private interests could plant gardens.

I don't see how that encourages freedom.



thats the thing. Capitalism doesnt prevent public organizations, it just doesnt coerce anyone to do anything. Lets say we live in a capitalistic bubble town, private interests can still have their own gardens and sell the goods at markets, stores, stands, etc. However people will also be allowed to collaborate and operate public gardens, coops, etc. Capitalism gives the freedom of choice to do whatever you want. Thats the beauty of it, no violent coercion.


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: psyconaught]
    #21956389 - 07/17/15 02:15 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
The town I live in has a public garden.  We get to plant what we want.  I don't see how choice is being taken from us.



the difference is that the town isn't preventing anyone from planting their own private gardens.




If all the gardens were private only private interests could plant gardens.

I don't see how that encourages freedom.



thats the thing. Capitalism doesnt prevent public organizations, it just doesnt coerce anyone to do anything. Lets say we live in a capitalistic bubble town, private interests can still have their own gardens and sell the goods at markets, stores, stands, etc. However people will also be allowed to collaborate and operate public gardens, coops, etc. Capitalism gives the freedom of choice to do whatever you want. Thats the beauty of it, no violent coercion.




So, you feel that Capitalism is not coercive? Not violently coercive?


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21956408 - 07/17/15 02:18 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
The town I live in has a public garden.  We get to plant what we want.  I don't see how choice is being taken from us.



the difference is that the town isn't preventing anyone from planting their own private gardens.




If all the gardens were private only private interests could plant gardens.

I don't see how that encourages freedom.



thats the thing. Capitalism doesnt prevent public organizations, it just doesnt coerce anyone to do anything. Lets say we live in a capitalistic bubble town, private interests can still have their own gardens and sell the goods at markets, stores, stands, etc. However people will also be allowed to collaborate and operate public gardens, coops, etc. Capitalism gives the freedom of choice to do whatever you want. Thats the beauty of it, no violent coercion.




So, you feel that Capitalism is not coercive? Not violently coercive?



by definition its not


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: psyconaught]
    #21956430 - 07/17/15 02:23 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Communes snd co'ops, and even socialist communities can all exist within capitalism,  the difference is that they would all be voluntarily and anyone could opt in or opt out as they wish.  One of the key features of capitalism is its non-coercion.  You are free to buy or sell or not to, there is no one pointing a gun at your head forcng you to do anything like in socialism.  Buisinesses are required to earn customers based on merit instead on just stealing money by pointing government guns and agents at people like with socialism.  Capitalism is inherently more efficient wich means everyone benefts.  Any time socialists introduce a gin into the room to coerce redistribution,  they can never redistribute it efficiently because they simply spend the money without any regard for earning customers on merit. There needs to be no regard of economic demand when government spends money, every capitalist MUST cater to public demand - this is ehy capitalism better serves humanity than socialism.


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: psyconaught]
    #21956452 - 07/17/15 02:28 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

There's only so much land.  Hardline capatilsts beleive it would all be better off in the hands of private owners.

How do coops exist in this state?  The town rents them from Donald Trump?


--------------------
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To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21956454 - 07/17/15 02:29 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Didn't we already try feudalism?


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21956462 - 07/17/15 02:30 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:



So, you feel that Capitalism is not coercive? Not violently coercive?





by definition it is non-coercive, that is its main strength, and also why it is way more morally enlightened than other systems lije socialism.

Socialism  is inherantly about isiung the violence and force of the state to threaten and force people to do things.  Democratic socislism is then the systematic, violent opression of political minority groups.  It is morally wrong to employ the violence of the state to coerce people into participation, an


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Shins]
    #21956472 - 07/17/15 02:34 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Owning all the land and telling people they can starve to death or give you half their crop for working your fields isn't violent?


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Shins]
    #21956475 - 07/17/15 02:35 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

How do coops exist in this state?



in the same exact way they do now. What makes you think it'd be any different?


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21956477 - 07/17/15 02:35 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Or buying all the water rights from the public and selling the 'water' back as Coke?  To use a modern anology.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21956480 - 07/17/15 02:36 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Owning all the land and telling people they can starve to death or give you half their crop for working your fields isn't violent?



no its not. If you see a homeless man on the street and he asks for money, if you refuse are you inciting violence towards him because you don't give him your property? Of course not.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21956484 - 07/17/15 02:36 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Or buying all the water rights from the public and selling the 'water' back as Coke?  To use a modern anology.



please explain how this is violence.


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21956489 - 07/17/15 02:37 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
There's only so much land.  Hardline capatilsts beleive it would all be better off in the hahnds of private owners.

How do coops exist in this state?  The town rents them from Donald Trump?





Simpke - people get together and pool resources and profits.  Its a private commune.  No one would be able to stop you from leaving  you if you wish.

with national socialism you CANNOT leave or opt out, if you try to resist, the state will send armed agents after you who are authorized to use lethal force if you defend your property.  That is immoral,  and every time you adk the government for socialism,  you are really asking for Agents to point gund at people and rob them to give you what you want - that is morall wrong.


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21956509 - 07/17/15 02:44 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Owning all the land and telling people they can starve to death or give you half their crop for working your fields isn't violent?





Nobody owns all the land.

if you starve to death its your fault, not some land owner.

if they offer you a job so you can survive should you not be grateful?

There is no violence or coercion in making a mutually consensual employment agreement,  even if you personally are desperate.


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: psyconaught]
    #21956510 - 07/17/15 02:44 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Or buying all the water rights from the public and selling the 'water' back as Coke?  To use a modern anology.



please explain how this is violence.




You don't see how buying a communities water and selling them drugs in return is violent?

Tell me where you live.  I have some crack I'd like to sell your kids.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21956524 - 07/17/15 02:47 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Or buying all the water rights from the public and selling the 'water' back as Coke?  To use a modern anology.



please explain how this is violence.




You don't see how buying a communities water and selling them drugs in return is violent?

Tell me where you live.  I have some crack I'd like to sell your kids.



Cola is a drug now?


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: psyconaught]
    #21956536 - 07/17/15 02:50 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Or buying all the water rights from the public and selling the 'water' back as Coke?  To use a modern anology.



please explain how this is violence.




You don't see how buying a communities water and selling them drugs in return is violent?

Tell me where you live.  I have some crack I'd like to sell your kids.



Cola is a drug now?




Caffeine is, you could argue for sugar as well.


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21956539 - 07/17/15 02:51 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

That's not violence.  Shady as fuck? Maybe but violent?  No.

as a capitslist and libertarian,  I do believe that there is room fot the government to govern over some things which could be construed as being in the self-defense of the public, and/or protecting rights of the public.  Water rights is a grey area, but that's for a different thread.


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Shins]
    #21956557 - 07/17/15 02:52 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

What the hell do you want the government to regulate if water doesn't even fit the criteria?


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Shins]
    #21956559 - 07/17/15 02:54 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:



So, you feel that Capitalism is not coercive? Not violently coercive?





by definition it is non-coercive, that is its main strength, and also why it is way more morally enlightened than other systems lije socialism.

Socialism  is inherantly about isiung the violence and force of the state to threaten and force people to do things.  Democratic socislism is then the systematic, violent opression of political minority groups.  It is morally wrong to employ the violence of the state to coerce people into participation, an




Right. You're a Libertarian?

Ok, so you believe in unrestrained Capitalism, and that the state should get out of the way? I want to make sure I'm interpreting your philosophy correctly before I demonstrate for you how coercive it really is. Much more so than Democratic Socialism.


--------------------
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21956591 - 07/17/15 02:59 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
What the hell do you want the government to regulate if water doesn't even fit the criteria?





I was saying that I think the government might very well be justified in regulating the nations water.  It is kind of a grey area, it could be considered national defense, and/or an issue of property/personal rights, plus in reality pure Idealism doesn't always work and one must be somewhst pragmatic.


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: psyconaught]
    #21956600 - 07/17/15 03:01 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Or buying all the water rights from the public and selling the 'water' back as Coke?  To use a modern anology.



please explain how this is violence.




There are different definitions of the word 'violence', but I'll go with the Libertarian thought process on this one. Who is to stop me from drinking water? Who has the right to sell water in the first place? Are you going to have police enforce your water rights? That's violence.

Also, the fact that you find privatization of water rights to be acceptable is a clear demonstration that this is no functional system. No system that the vast majority would advocate.

On a side note, does nature have no claim to water?

Water is an example of inflexible demand, and therefore falls outside the realm of capitalist economics. You'll have to concede (If you are reasonable) that this one is best handled by the community as a whole, but that doesn't necessarily debunk Libertarianism.


--------------------
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FARTS
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Edited by Bigbadwooof (07/17/15 03:07 PM)


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21956607 - 07/17/15 03:03 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Or land rights.  Gotta make food too.


--------------------
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To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21956621 - 07/17/15 03:06 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Or buying all the water rights from the public and selling the 'water' back as Coke?  To use a modern anology.



please explain how this is violence.




There are different definitions of the word 'violence', but I'll go with the Libertarian thought process on this one. Who is to stop me from drinking water? Who has the right to sell water in the first place? Are you going to have police enforce your water rights? That's violence.

Also, the fact that you find privatization of water rights to be acceptable is a clear demonstration that this is no functional system. No system that the vast majority would advocate.



I'd say a vast majority of people would find that using violence to defend yourself and your property is acceptable. And further more what does having a functioning police force have to do with capitalism? We have police regardless of the economic system.


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21956623 - 07/17/15 03:06 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Or land rights.  Gotta make food too.



are you saying we shouldn't be able to own land?


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21956624 - 07/17/15 03:07 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:



So, you feel that Capitalism is not coercive? Not violently coercive?





by definition it is non-coercive, that is its main strength, and also why it is way more morally enlightened than other systems lije socialism.

Socialism  is inherantly about isiung the violence and force of the state to threaten and force people to do things.  Democratic socislism is then the systematic, violent opression of political minority groups.  It is morally wrong to employ the violence of the state to coerce people into participation, an




Right. You're a Libertarian?

Ok, so you believe in unrestrained Capitalism, and that the state should get out of the way? I want to make sure I'm interpreting your philosophy correctly before I demonstrate for you how coercive it really is. Much more so than Democratic Socialism.





There's no such thing as "unrestrained capitalism" capitalism inherently restrains itself.  The seller is always restrained by the demands ofvthe public, a seller MUST adress public demand in order to ever sell anything.  Capitalism is never unrestrained.

The government however can theoretically spend unlimited money, its socialism which is wholly unrestrained because the government is not restrained by public demand.  The government can tax,  bortow, print, profit and spend unlimited money without ANY regard to economic demand.  Capitalism doesn't have that; the seller must convice s buyer to but based on the value and merit of a produce,  a sociaist government does not require any of that, they simply steal money and spend it without any regard to economic demand.


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Shins]
    #21956633 - 07/17/15 03:08 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Unrestrained capitalism means capitalism unrestrained by external forces. What the fuck do you think it means?

Under Socialism the government can't even theoretically spend unlimited money. Otherwise it would be the obvious choice.


--------------------
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Edited by Bigbadwooof (07/17/15 03:10 PM)


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21956651 - 07/17/15 03:13 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Or land rights.  Gotta make food too.



are you saying we shouldn't be able to own land?




Each according to their need sure.  Beyond that no.


--------------------
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To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21956656 - 07/17/15 03:15 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Unrestrained capitalism means capitalism unrestrained by external forces. What the fuck do you think it means?





but capitalism is always restrained by external forced, that's what I just blatantly explained to you;  capitalism is always restrained by supply and demand.

What it is socialism restrained by?  The debt ceiling? which, like clockwork is raised every time they get near it?  What exactly is restraining the socialists?



You really need to begin to use your brain to think deeper man.  First you thought communism could exist, when it contradicts itself (as I explained)  and now you think capitalism is "unresrrained"  you need to think more.


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21956657 - 07/17/15 03:15 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Let me lay this out plainly. Under Capitalism, a company must necessarily grow or die. There is a reason for this. If they're not growing, someone else is, and they will either be bought, or forced out of the market. Acquisition and merger is the name of the game in Capitalism. You see, in it's early stages Capitalism thrives on competition, and there are winners and losers. Over time there are very few winners, and without regulation you end up with monopolization.

Once a company has a monopoly, they are not subject to the forces of the market, they are the market. If they own all of the farmland, they can charge whatever they want for food, because they are the only source. If they own all the water rights, same deal. If they own all of the housing, same deal.

Eventually companies span out into new markets, and swallow competition there also. Eventually you would end up with one company owning all private property, and it would simply be a communist dictatorship, like Soviet Russia! :smile:


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Shins]
    #21956660 - 07/17/15 03:16 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Unrestrained capitalism means capitalism unrestrained by external forces. What the fuck do you think it means?





but capitalism is always restrained by external forced, that's what I just blatantly explained to you;  capitalism is always restrained by supply and demand.

What it is socialism restrained by?  The debt ceiling? which, like clockwork is raised every time they get near it?  What exactly is restraining the socialists?



You really need to begin to use your brain to think deeper man.  First you thought communism could exist, when it contradicts itself (as I explained)  and now you think capitalism is "unresrrained"  you need to think more.




Supply and demand aren't external forces, they are part of Capitalism.


--------------------
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21956674 - 07/17/15 03:21 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Let me lay this out plainly. Under Capitalism, a company must necessarily grow or die. There is a reason for this. If they're not growing, someone else is, and they will either be bought, or forced out of the market. Acquisition and merger is the name of the game in Capitalism. You see, in it's early stages Capitalism thrives on competition, and there are winners and losers. Over time there are very few winners, and without regulation you end up with monopolization.

Once a company has a monopoly, they are not subject to the forces of the market, they are the market. If they own all of the farmland, they can charge whatever they want for food, because they are the only source. If they own all the water rights, same deal. If they own all of the housing, same deal.

Eventually companies span out into new markets, and swallow competition there also. Eventually you would end up with one company owning all private property, and it would simply be a communist dictatorship, like Soviet Russia! :smile:




:whathesaid:


--------------------
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To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21956685 - 07/17/15 03:24 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Let me lay this out plainly. Under Capitalism, a company must necessarily grow or die. There is a reason for this. If they're not growing, someone else is, and they will either be bought, or forced out of the market. Acquisition and merger is the name of the game in Capitalism. You see, in it's early stages Capitalism thrives on competition, and there are winners and losers. Over time there are very few winners, and without regulation you end up with monopolization.

Once a company has a monopoly, they are not subject to the forces of the market, they are the market. If they own all of the farmland, they can charge whatever they want for food, because they are the only source. If they own all the water rights, same deal. If they own all of the housing, same deal.

Eventually companies span out into new markets, and swallow competition there also. Eventually you would end up with one company owning all private property, and it would simply be a communist dictatorship, like Soviet Russia! :smile:






Monopoly does not happen permanently in capitalism, and if it ever did, it would be by selling the best value of product.  It would be all of the company's customers who elevate the company to monopoly because they are all so happy with the increase in standard of living the product gives.

in other words; the company will have earned its place as top dog because it was sovastly superior as improving the value of standard of living of its customers with its products.  They got rich by serving humanity's demands the most effectively - that's a good thing.


but of course any other company could always undercut them if yhey ever price gouge.  Mergers and aquisitions are also all totally voluntary, and no company has ever completely bought out their competition that i know of.

I challenge you to name just one monopoly that came to be with no government involved.


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21956694 - 07/17/15 03:27 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Unrestrained capitalism means capitalism unrestrained by external forces. What the fuck do you think it means?





but capitalism is always restrained by external forced, that's what I just blatantly explained to you;  capitalism is always restrained by supply and demand.

What it is socialism restrained by?  The debt ceiling? which, like clockwork is raised every time they get near it?  What exactly is restraining the socialists?



You really need to begin to use your brain to think deeper man.  First you thought communism could exist, when it contradicts itself (as I explained)  and now you think capitalism is "unresrrained"  you need to think more.




Supply and demand aren't external forces, they are part of Capitalism.





They are not part of capitalism.  They are economic fundamentals that exist naturally regardless of tge economic system.

you are incredibly uneducated in economics.  I strongly suggest you gets some books and educate yourself before you make more posts and make a fool of yourself again.


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Shins]
    #21956703 - 07/17/15 03:30 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Let me lay this out plainly. Under Capitalism, a company must necessarily grow or die. There is a reason for this. If they're not growing, someone else is, and they will either be bought, or forced out of the market. Acquisition and merger is the name of the game in Capitalism. You see, in it's early stages Capitalism thrives on competition, and there are winners and losers. Over time there are very few winners, and without regulation you end up with monopolization.

Once a company has a monopoly, they are not subject to the forces of the market, they are the market. If they own all of the farmland, they can charge whatever they want for food, because they are the only source. If they own all the water rights, same deal. If they own all of the housing, same deal.

Eventually companies span out into new markets, and swallow competition there also. Eventually you would end up with one company owning all private property, and it would simply be a communist dictatorship, like Soviet Russia! :smile:






Monopoly does not happen permanently in capitalism, and if it ever did, it would be by selling the best value of product.  It would be all of the company's customers who elevate the company to monopoly because they are all so happy with the increase in standard of living the product gives.

in other words; the company will have earned its place as top dog because it was sovastly superior as improving the value of standard of living of its customers with its products.  They got rich by serving humanity's demands the most effectively - that's a good thing.


but of course any other company could always undercut them if yhey ever price gouge.  Mergers and aquisitions are also all totally voluntary, and no company has ever completely bought out their competition that i know of.

I challenge you to name just one monopoly that came to be with no government involved.




You can't undercut a monopoly. A company that held a monopoly would have vastly greater means of production already established. You would not be able to establish yourself against them, they become monopolies for a reason. Also, if anyone started to appear competitive, they would just buy you out. However, as a company begins to monopolize, they seek other means of growth, such as political influence, which we're seeing today.

You may see some apple juice stands pop up, but real competitive industry would be gone. They would grow to expand into every single market, and eventually control the entire economy, and pay you too little wages to be capable of starting a competitive business. They would charge you those wages back for food, housing and water. They would rule.

Right now there's a monopoly that hasn't come to be because the government has prevented it. That is Comcast+Time Warner.

By the way, of course when companies become large they utilize the government for their own ends. It's the easiest way to go. Monopolies would only exist without government intervention. There are means aside from the government of monopolizing. The same means that prop them up to the point where they are capable of influencing the government.


--------------------
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Edited by Bigbadwooof (07/17/15 03:32 PM)


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21956707 - 07/17/15 03:31 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Or land rights.  Gotta make food too.



are you saying we shouldn't be able to own land?




Each according to their need sure.  Beyond that no.



How do you determine need? By an overarching dictatorial government panel? Does someone in New York City need less land than someone in rural Kentucky?


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: psyconaught]
    #21956758 - 07/17/15 03:49 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I disagree with much of that but regardless, name one monopoly that came to be without any government help.

I say that the only way a monopoly can exist and persist is with the help of government.

Why exactly in theory would a monopoly be bad anyways assuming it is the very best and most efficient and least wasteful at fulfilling consumer demand and thus improving the consumer's standard of living the most for the money? Isn't that technologic innovation and advancement?


if it is money buys political influence then isn't the solution then to LIMIT THE POWER OF GOVERNMENT so that they cannot legally buy political influence?  Socialism centralizes power, which creates the power centers in which political infuennce an be bought.


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Edited by Shins (07/17/15 03:54 PM)


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Shins]
    #21956871 - 07/17/15 04:27 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Or land rights.  Gotta make food too.



are you saying we shouldn't be able to own land?




Each according to their need sure.  Beyond that no.



How do you determine need? By an overarching dictatorial government panel? Does someone in New York City need less land than someone in rural Kentucky?



Quote:

Shins said:
I disagree with much of that but regardless, name one monopoly that came to be without any government help.

I say that the only way a monopoly can exist and persist is with the help of government.

Why exactly in theory would a monopoly be bad anyways assuming it is the very best and most efficient and least wasteful at fulfilling consumer demand and thus improving the consumer's standard of living the most for the money? Isn't that technologic innovation and advancement?


if it is money buys political influence then isn't the solution then to LIMIT THE POWER OF GOVERNMENT so that they cannot legally buy political influence?  Socialism centralizes power, which creates the power centers in which political infuennce an be bought.




I don't hate Capitalism, just so you are aware. I just feel that it is an economic structure that has served its purpose, and we can do better.

Any market can be monopolized without government intervention. If one company can't out compete another, it is good business to just merge. It is more cost effective. Competition is part of Capitalism, for sure, but that does not mean that capitalists like competition.

Do I really need to explain why monopolies are bad? Competition is what drives innovation in Capitalism. Competition is the core of Capitalism, as it forces companies to go to greater and greater lengths regarding ingenuity and innovation to out compete their competitors. Also, if there is no competition, then you can set the price however high you like, especially on goods with inflexible demand like oil, water, food etc.


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21956915 - 07/17/15 04:39 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Utilities are a good example of natural monoplies.


--------------------
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21956916 - 07/17/15 04:40 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

There's always competition though. The only way to eliminate competition is by using the government's monopoly on legal force.  You can't just price gouge to anything because it will be worth it for competition to under sell you, that's why monopolies don't happen in a free market,  unless in theory one company could vastly out compete all the competitors.  But remember,  companies are competing to adress consumer demand by improving the standard of living of the consumers the most for the money with its products.  Its almost democratic in that the general public almost votes for companies by choosing to patronize or not. If some company managed to win all of those customers,  it was serving all of those people by improving their lives somehow.  You onlu get rich by serving the public.


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21956920 - 07/17/15 04:41 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Utilities are a good example of natural monoplies.




Uhh.. Utilities are most often government enforced monopolies


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Shins]
    #21956950 - 07/17/15 04:51 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
There's always competition though. The only way to eliminate competition is by using the government's monopoly on legal force.  You can't just price gouge to anything because it will be worth it for competition to under sell you, that's why monopolies don't happen in a free market,  unless in theory one company could vastly out compete all the competitors.  But remember,  companies are competing to adress consumer demand by improving the standard of living of the consumers the most for the money with its products.  Its almost democratic in that the general public almost votes for companies by choosing to patronize or not. If some company managed to win all of those customers,  it was serving all of those people by improving their lives somehow.  You onlu get rich by serving the public.




Government is not the only means by which a monopoly could conceivably be produced. Who told you that nonsense? Businesses merge for the sake of the business, and to opt out of competition. It's not done to serve the people, it's done to serve the business. A powerful business can buy out any small-scale competitors.

The goal of business is to grow as large as absolutely possible and exclude competitors from the market. They are very clever at doing so. A big business can price gouge to the point of profit loss for a year or two to run a competitor out of the market who can't sustain themselves under such conditions. That is but one basic example.


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Edited by Bigbadwooof (07/17/15 04:54 PM)


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21956963 - 07/17/15 04:54 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

None of the competition is obliged to sell or merge,  why would they if they can out compete?


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Shins]
    #21956967 - 07/17/15 04:56 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
None of the competition is obliged to sell or merge,  why would they if they can out compete?




Sorry, I added a bit that addresses this comment. Look back at my last post.


--------------------
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Shins]
    #21956982 - 07/17/15 05:00 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Government is the biggest monopoly there is in a country.  Doesn't it follow that if you want to limit monopoly you should limit government?  A tyrinous "majority" deciding on whim the aims of the most giant monopoly;  government is not only counter productive because it just doesnt work, but because it empowers government monopoly,


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Shins]
    #21956984 - 07/17/15 05:01 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
There's always competition though. The only way to eliminate competition is by using the government's monopoly on legal force.  You can't just price gouge to anything because it will be worth it for competition to under sell you, that's why monopolies don't happen in a free market,  unless in theory one company could vastly out compete all the competitors.  But remember,  companies are competing to adress consumer demand by improving the standard of living of the consumers the most for the money with its products.  Its almost democratic in that the general public almost votes for companies by choosing to patronize or not. If some company managed to win all of those customers,  it was serving all of those people by improving their lives somehow.  You onlu get rich by serving the public.






https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Oil

Quote:

Monopoly charges and anti-trust legislation
See also: Standard Oil Co. of New Jersey v. United States

By 1890, Standard Oil controlled 88 percent of the refined oil flows in the United States. The state of Ohio successfully sued Standard, compelling the dissolution of the trust in 1892. But Standard simply separated Standard Oil of Ohio and kept control of it. Eventually, the state of New Jersey changed its incorporation laws to allow a company to hold shares in other companies in any state. So, in 1899, the Standard Oil Trust, based at 26 Broadway in New York, was legally reborn as a holding company, the Standard Oil Co. of New Jersey (SOCNJ), which held stock in 41 other companies, which controlled other companies, which in turn controlled yet other companies. This conglomerate was seen by the public as all-pervasive, controlled by a select group of directors, and completely unaccountable.[31]
U.S. President Theodore Roosevelt depicted as the infant Hercules grappling with Standard Oil in a 1906 Puck magazine cartoon

In 1904, Standard controlled 91 percent of production and 85 percent of final sales. Most of its output was kerosene, of which 55 percent was exported around the world. After 1900 it did not try to force competitors out of business by underpricing them.[32] The federal Commissioner of Corporations studied Standard's operations from the period of 1904 to 1906[33] and concluded that "beyond question... the dominant position of the Standard Oil Co. in the refining industry was due to unfair practices—to abuse of the control of pipe-lines, to railroad discriminations, and to unfair methods of competition in the sale of the refined petroleum products".[34] Due to competition from other firms, their market share had gradually eroded to 70 percent by 1906 which was the year when the antitrust case was filed against Standard, and down to 64 percent by 1911 when Standard was ordered broken up[35] and at least 147 refining companies were competing with Standard including Gulf, Texaco, and Shell.[36] It did not try to monopolize the exploration and pumping of oil (its share in 1911 was 11 percent).[citation needed]

In 1909, the US Department of Justice sued Standard under federal anti-trust law, the Sherman Antitrust Act of 1890, for sustaining a monopoly and restraining interstate commerce by:[37]

    "Rebates, preferences, and other discriminatory practices in favor of the combination by railroad companies; restraint and monopolization by control of pipe lines, and unfair practices against competing pipe lines; contracts with competitors in restraint of trade; unfair methods of competition, such as local price cutting at the points where necessary to suppress competition; [and] espionage of the business of competitors, the operation of bogus independent companies, and payment of rebates on oil, with the like intent."

The lawsuit argued that Standard's monopolistic practices had taken place over the preceding four years:[38]

    "The general result of the investigation has been to disclose the existence of numerous and flagrant discriminations by the railroads in behalf of the Standard Oil Co. and its affiliated corporations. With comparatively few exceptions, mainly of other large concerns in California, the Standard has been the sole beneficiary of such discriminations. In almost every section of the country that company has been found to enjoy some unfair advantages over its competitors, and some of these discriminations affect enormous areas."

The government identified four illegal patterns: 1) secret and semi-secret railroad rates; (2) discriminations in the open arrangement of rates; (3) discriminations in classification and rules of shipment; (4) discriminations in the treatment of private tank cars. The government alleged:[39]

    "Almost everywhere the rates from the shipping points used exclusively, or almost exclusively, by the Standard are relatively lower than the rates from the shipping points of its competitors. Rates have been made low to let the Standard into markets, or they have been made high to keep its competitors out of markets. Trifling differences in distances are made an excuse for large differences in rates favorable to the Standard Oil Co., while large differences in distances are ignored where they are against the Standard. Sometimes connecting roads prorate on oil—that is, make through rates which are lower than the combination of local rates; sometimes they refuse to prorate; but in either case the result of their policy is to favor the Standard Oil Co. Different methods are used in different places and under different conditions, but the net result is that from Maine to California the general arrangement of open rates on petroleum oil is such as to give the Standard an unreasonable advantage over its competitors"

The government said that Standard raised prices to its monopolistic customers but lowered them to hurt competitors, often disguising its illegal actions by using bogus supposedly independent companies it controlled.[40]

    "The evidence is, in fact, absolutely conclusive that the Standard Oil Co. charges altogether excessive prices where it meets no competition, and particularly where there is little likelihood of competitors entering the field, and that, on the other hand, where competition is active, it frequently cuts prices to a point which leaves even the Standard little or no profit, and which more often leaves no profit to the competitor, whose costs are ordinarily somewhat higher."

On May 15, 1911, the US Supreme Court upheld the lower court judgment and declared the Standard Oil group to be an "unreasonable" monopoly under the Sherman Antitrust Act, Section II. It ordered Standard to break up into 90 independent companies with different boards of directors, the biggest two of the companies were Standard Oil of New Jersey (which became Exxon) and Standard Oil of New York (which became Mobil).[41]




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InvisibleShins
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21957054 - 07/17/15 05:16 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Standard oil Reduced the price of gas for the consumer by a large amount.  Standard oil revolutionized the gas industry and helped create cars, airplanes, and modern society.  John Rockafeller got extremely rich but the consumers also benefited.  standard oil itoday is not a monopoly and it never really ever was, it just dominated the market.



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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Shins]
    #21957123 - 07/17/15 05:31 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

if standard oil was so great, why did they have to use dirty tricks to stifle competition and maintain their market share?


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Shins]
    #21957231 - 07/17/15 05:55 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Without government intervention it would have been a complete monopoly. We've already discussed why monopoly is a bad thing.


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OfflineGalba Cubensis
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21958538 - 07/17/15 10:42 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Lol. Srsly?? Well neither is "youll", "ppl", "oh" or "chilldog" for that sake. But still, nice try though kid:wink:

Oh and if you take a look at the "talk" page of wikipedia, youll see ALOT of ppl disliking the way its written. Cause its written by sheep like you... I mean look at your response "the general attitude towards communism", right in that sentece you indirectly admit youre just going for what the general population believes and even have the decency to use the word "attitude" rather then "knowledge" or whatever synonym would suffice. Stop discussing and go read dude, you have been lied to. I recommend starting with acknowledging that communism just like capitalism has many different ways to reach its goal. But at least its not "survival of the fittest", cause I believe humanity is past the point of animalistic thinking.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Galba Cubensis]
    #21959442 - 07/18/15 06:45 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Galba Cubensis said:
Lol. Srsly?? Well neither is "youll", "ppl", "oh" or "chilldog" for that sake. But still, nice try though kid;)

Oh and if you take a look at the "talk" page of wikipedia, youll see ALOT of ppl disliking the way its written. Cause its written by sheep like you... I mean look at your response "the general attitude towards communism", right in that sentece you indirectly admit youre just going for what the general population believes and even have the decency to use the word "attitude" rather then "knowledge" or whatever synonym would suffice. Stop discussing and go read dude, you have been lied to. I recommend starting with acknowledging that communism just like capitalism has many different ways to reach its goal. But at least its not "survival of the fittest", cause I believe humanity is past the point of animalistic thinking.




:hahthatsrich:

I never even expressed my view on communism or it's feasibility, but spoiler alert, it's different than the general attitude.


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OfflineGalba Cubensis
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21966145 - 07/19/15 04:39 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

You say you dont express your attitude towards communism yet you utter one false statement after the other... Excuse me for simply brushing it off as "your attitude" considering its not based irl. So lets see:

*You call yourself "chilldog extraordinaire" (arrogant)
*Have a picture of jesse with a gun pointing towards the observer (gun advocate? republican? tea party?)
*Your location is not "america" but "'merica" (fuck yeah, coming again to save the motherfucking day yeah?)
*Over a period of 6 years you post 5 posts a day here on average (obv youre one of those that HAVE to be right, even when youre not...)
*You say youre apathetic but still all your posts have that "Im the best"-feeling easily showing us that that you actually care a little too much in fact (I mean your nick is f ecstatic... talk about oxyMORON), further proven by how you have to answer everything ppl post (even when youre wrong...........):
*You constantly state things like "That's why communism is usually looked at as utopian fantasy. The idea is that the public callls the shots without need a state for coercion." as if they are facts. When in fact they sadly seem more like a troll, cause that how retarded the statements are...
*Let me even quickly further dwell into this; "usually looked at", "utopian fantasy", "the idea is", "public calls the shots", without need of coercion". Now thats an orgy of ridiculous arguments, both the type of arguments as well as their statements. But gj with the "obama drops the mic" picture in your signature... Now if only you could ever drop a mic...
*Your talk about "keyboard warriors" further shows me that its been waaaaaay too long since you "opened up a book"/read something useful if you ever actually did. By the time I finished writing this Ive switched from being annoyed to actually feeling sad for you. Thanks again for reminding me how fucked up some of you 'merican faggots make the world with your retardedness... Now f off retard I have better things to do then come here and not get entertained by some brainwashed retard with all in all 6 rewritable braincells...

"I never even expressed my view on communism or it's feasibility, but spoiler alert, it's different than the general attitude." LOL...


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Edited by Galba Cubensis (07/19/15 04:47 PM)


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Galba Cubensis]
    #21966694 - 07/19/15 07:08 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Get the fuck outta here! lmao

Your psychoanalytic skills are un-leet, bruh! ;-)


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
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Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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OfflineGalba Cubensis
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21966747 - 07/19/15 07:18 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Did that make big bad woof cry?:evil:


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Galba Cubensis]
    #21966919 - 07/19/15 07:49 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

:lolsy:


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OfflineGalba Cubensis
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21970009 - 07/20/15 09:51 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Yeh you go "keyboard" warrior! Your opinions are so important thats why youre behind a screen all day. Touché retard bahahahahahahahaa...


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Galba Cubensis]
    #21970099 - 07/20/15 10:20 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Important enough for you to type paragraphs of analysis before I even make any.


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OfflineGalba Cubensis
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21970274 - 07/20/15 11:21 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

You wish you could :hi:


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