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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Shins]
    #21956472 - 07/17/15 02:34 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Owning all the land and telling people they can starve to death or give you half their crop for working your fields isn't violent?


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Shins]
    #21956475 - 07/17/15 02:35 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

How do coops exist in this state?



in the same exact way they do now. What makes you think it'd be any different?


--------------------
Think for yourself, question authority


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21956477 - 07/17/15 02:35 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Or buying all the water rights from the public and selling the 'water' back as Coke?  To use a modern anology.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21956480 - 07/17/15 02:36 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Owning all the land and telling people they can starve to death or give you half their crop for working your fields isn't violent?



no its not. If you see a homeless man on the street and he asks for money, if you refuse are you inciting violence towards him because you don't give him your property? Of course not.


--------------------
Think for yourself, question authority


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Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21956484 - 07/17/15 02:36 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Or buying all the water rights from the public and selling the 'water' back as Coke?  To use a modern anology.



please explain how this is violence.


--------------------
Think for yourself, question authority


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InvisibleShins
Fun guy
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Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21956489 - 07/17/15 02:37 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
There's only so much land.  Hardline capatilsts beleive it would all be better off in the hahnds of private owners.

How do coops exist in this state?  The town rents them from Donald Trump?





Simpke - people get together and pool resources and profits.  Its a private commune.  No one would be able to stop you from leaving  you if you wish.

with national socialism you CANNOT leave or opt out, if you try to resist, the state will send armed agents after you who are authorized to use lethal force if you defend your property.  That is immoral,  and every time you adk the government for socialism,  you are really asking for Agents to point gund at people and rob them to give you what you want - that is morall wrong.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


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InvisibleShins
Fun guy
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Posts: 16,337
Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21956509 - 07/17/15 02:44 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Owning all the land and telling people they can starve to death or give you half their crop for working your fields isn't violent?





Nobody owns all the land.

if you starve to death its your fault, not some land owner.

if they offer you a job so you can survive should you not be grateful?

There is no violence or coercion in making a mutually consensual employment agreement,  even if you personally are desperate.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: psyconaught]
    #21956510 - 07/17/15 02:44 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Or buying all the water rights from the public and selling the 'water' back as Coke?  To use a modern anology.



please explain how this is violence.




You don't see how buying a communities water and selling them drugs in return is violent?

Tell me where you live.  I have some crack I'd like to sell your kids.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21956524 - 07/17/15 02:47 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Or buying all the water rights from the public and selling the 'water' back as Coke?  To use a modern anology.



please explain how this is violence.




You don't see how buying a communities water and selling them drugs in return is violent?

Tell me where you live.  I have some crack I'd like to sell your kids.



Cola is a drug now?


--------------------
Think for yourself, question authority


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,368
Loc: 'Merica Flag
Last seen: 2 hours, 32 minutes
Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: psyconaught]
    #21956536 - 07/17/15 02:50 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Or buying all the water rights from the public and selling the 'water' back as Coke?  To use a modern anology.



please explain how this is violence.




You don't see how buying a communities water and selling them drugs in return is violent?

Tell me where you live.  I have some crack I'd like to sell your kids.



Cola is a drug now?




Caffeine is, you could argue for sugar as well.


--------------------


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InvisibleShins
Fun guy
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21956539 - 07/17/15 02:51 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

That's not violence.  Shady as fuck? Maybe but violent?  No.

as a capitslist and libertarian,  I do believe that there is room fot the government to govern over some things which could be construed as being in the self-defense of the public, and/or protecting rights of the public.  Water rights is a grey area, but that's for a different thread.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,368
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Shins]
    #21956557 - 07/17/15 02:52 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

What the hell do you want the government to regulate if water doesn't even fit the criteria?


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Shins]
    #21956559 - 07/17/15 02:54 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:



So, you feel that Capitalism is not coercive? Not violently coercive?





by definition it is non-coercive, that is its main strength, and also why it is way more morally enlightened than other systems lije socialism.

Socialism  is inherantly about isiung the violence and force of the state to threaten and force people to do things.  Democratic socislism is then the systematic, violent opression of political minority groups.  It is morally wrong to employ the violence of the state to coerce people into participation, an




Right. You're a Libertarian?

Ok, so you believe in unrestrained Capitalism, and that the state should get out of the way? I want to make sure I'm interpreting your philosophy correctly before I demonstrate for you how coercive it really is. Much more so than Democratic Socialism.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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InvisibleShins
Fun guy
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Posts: 16,337
Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21956591 - 07/17/15 02:59 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
What the hell do you want the government to regulate if water doesn't even fit the criteria?





I was saying that I think the government might very well be justified in regulating the nations water.  It is kind of a grey area, it could be considered national defense, and/or an issue of property/personal rights, plus in reality pure Idealism doesn't always work and one must be somewhst pragmatic.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: psyconaught]
    #21956600 - 07/17/15 03:01 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Or buying all the water rights from the public and selling the 'water' back as Coke?  To use a modern anology.



please explain how this is violence.




There are different definitions of the word 'violence', but I'll go with the Libertarian thought process on this one. Who is to stop me from drinking water? Who has the right to sell water in the first place? Are you going to have police enforce your water rights? That's violence.

Also, the fact that you find privatization of water rights to be acceptable is a clear demonstration that this is no functional system. No system that the vast majority would advocate.

On a side note, does nature have no claim to water?

Water is an example of inflexible demand, and therefore falls outside the realm of capitalist economics. You'll have to concede (If you are reasonable) that this one is best handled by the community as a whole, but that doesn't necessarily debunk Libertarianism.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


Edited by Bigbadwooof (07/17/15 03:07 PM)


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21956607 - 07/17/15 03:03 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Or land rights.  Gotta make food too.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21956621 - 07/17/15 03:06 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Or buying all the water rights from the public and selling the 'water' back as Coke?  To use a modern anology.



please explain how this is violence.




There are different definitions of the word 'violence', but I'll go with the Libertarian thought process on this one. Who is to stop me from drinking water? Who has the right to sell water in the first place? Are you going to have police enforce your water rights? That's violence.

Also, the fact that you find privatization of water rights to be acceptable is a clear demonstration that this is no functional system. No system that the vast majority would advocate.



I'd say a vast majority of people would find that using violence to defend yourself and your property is acceptable. And further more what does having a functioning police force have to do with capitalism? We have police regardless of the economic system.


--------------------
Think for yourself, question authority


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Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21956623 - 07/17/15 03:06 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Or land rights.  Gotta make food too.



are you saying we shouldn't be able to own land?


--------------------
Think for yourself, question authority


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InvisibleShins
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Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21956624 - 07/17/15 03:07 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:



So, you feel that Capitalism is not coercive? Not violently coercive?





by definition it is non-coercive, that is its main strength, and also why it is way more morally enlightened than other systems lije socialism.

Socialism  is inherantly about isiung the violence and force of the state to threaten and force people to do things.  Democratic socislism is then the systematic, violent opression of political minority groups.  It is morally wrong to employ the violence of the state to coerce people into participation, an




Right. You're a Libertarian?

Ok, so you believe in unrestrained Capitalism, and that the state should get out of the way? I want to make sure I'm interpreting your philosophy correctly before I demonstrate for you how coercive it really is. Much more so than Democratic Socialism.





There's no such thing as "unrestrained capitalism" capitalism inherently restrains itself.  The seller is always restrained by the demands ofvthe public, a seller MUST adress public demand in order to ever sell anything.  Capitalism is never unrestrained.

The government however can theoretically spend unlimited money, its socialism which is wholly unrestrained because the government is not restrained by public demand.  The government can tax,  bortow, print, profit and spend unlimited money without ANY regard to economic demand.  Capitalism doesn't have that; the seller must convice s buyer to but based on the value and merit of a produce,  a sociaist government does not require any of that, they simply steal money and spend it without any regard to economic demand.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Shins]
    #21956633 - 07/17/15 03:08 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Unrestrained capitalism means capitalism unrestrained by external forces. What the fuck do you think it means?

Under Socialism the government can't even theoretically spend unlimited money. Otherwise it would be the obvious choice.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


Edited by Bigbadwooof (07/17/15 03:10 PM)


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