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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21955821 - 07/17/15 11:57 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I agree. However, Democracy could be a complementary tool for bringing about great changes when the time comes, without the necessity violent revolution. Of course it may be violent regardless.

I've been watching the progress with nuclear fusion for the past few years. It's been moving along slowly but surely. If we were serious about energy, we would invest a lot more money into this research.

On a side note, something else that will change the game a bit is asteroid mining. I'm sure you've heard about this. There is a company that will be capable of mining asteroids in the near future. Our resources may actually expand beyond the limits of our planet! :smile:

I think, hypothetically of course, if the budget was spent in a purely democratic way, NASA would get a muuuch larger chunk than it does, and the military would take a nice big pay cut.

As far as energy though, it is interesting to see that some communities in America have taken over their electrical utilities publicly, and in some places they are working on public internet utilities, etc. Even small scale urban farming (Small plots divvied for personal use) is being turned into a public venture.

As I said earlier, I think Socialist principles can be implemented a lot smoother and faster if we stop relying on the government to do it for us. Especially in a country where government is despised as it is.


Edited by Bigbadwooof (07/17/15 11:58 AM)


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21955829 - 07/17/15 12:00 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Capitalism clearly doesn't work, and I can't really imagine how anyone ever thought it would work.



i agree. Who in their right mind would have ever thought that freedom of choice would ever work??? Fucking fools.


--------------------
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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: psyconaught]
    #21955835 - 07/17/15 12:01 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Capitalism clearly doesn't work, and I can't really imagine how anyone ever thought it would work.



i agree. Who in their right mind would have ever thought that freedom of choice would ever work??? Fucking fools.




Freedom of choice? Please elaborate.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21955893 - 07/17/15 12:17 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Capitalism clearly doesn't work, and I can't really imagine how anyone ever thought it would work.



i agree. Who in their right mind would have ever thought that freedom of choice would ever work??? Fucking fools.




Freedom of choice? Please elaborate.



The basis of capitalism is the market (made up of individuals) deciding what does and doesnt work. They achieve this by having the freedom of choice to patronize the business's they see fit, socialism removes this freedom of choice by concentrating all production means to the state. Personally i enjoy the variety of choices i have in the marketplace, and would be absolutely horrified if the state took them over.


--------------------
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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: psyconaught]
    #21955969 - 07/17/15 12:39 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

The town I live in has a public garden.  We get to plant what we want.  I don't see how choice is being taken from us.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21956045 - 07/17/15 01:00 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
The town I live in has a public garden.  We get to plant what we want.  I don't see how choice is being taken from us.



the difference is that the town isn't preventing anyone from planting their own private gardens.


--------------------
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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: psyconaught]
    #21956297 - 07/17/15 01:57 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Capitalism clearly doesn't work, and I can't really imagine how anyone ever thought it would work.



i agree. Who in their right mind would have ever thought that freedom of choice would ever work??? Fucking fools.




Freedom of choice? Please elaborate.



The basis of capitalism is the market (made up of individuals) deciding what does and doesnt work. They achieve this by having the freedom of choice to patronize the business's they see fit, socialism removes this freedom of choice by concentrating all production means to the state. Personally i enjoy the variety of choices i have in the marketplace, and would be absolutely horrified if the state took them over.




Socialism does not get rid of choice. The basis of Capitalism is Capital and Capitalists capitalizing on their accumulated industrial means, or wealth. They receive disproportionate revenue from the labor of the people, because they own the capital and they capitalize on it.

The premise of a capitalist society is that continual expansion is forever possible. It is not. We live in a finite world. If a business doesn't grow, it dies.

In a capitalist society, those born into wealth are born capitalists. From birth they are capitalizing on wealth. Over generations this makes the economy top-heavy, and it comes crashing down. We are witnessing an economy that has collapsed, and will not recover.

In order for any economy to function people have to spend money. In order for Capitalism to function, people have to be fanatically materialistic, and have the money to continually spend on consumer goods. This is unrealistic. Firstly, people no longer have the money (though they are borrowing at a rate unheard of in world history!), and as I said earlier, we live in a finite world that can't support this sort of ever increasing consumerism.

Capitalism is not realistic.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: psyconaught]
    #21956314 - 07/17/15 02:00 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
The town I live in has a public garden.  We get to plant what we want.  I don't see how choice is being taken from us.



the difference is that the town isn't preventing anyone from planting their own private gardens.




Socialism doesn't do that either. In economic terms 'private property' doesn't refer to that which is individually owned by a person. It refers to private industrial ownership.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21956336 - 07/17/15 02:05 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Socialism does not get rid of choice.



oh. You said it so it must be true.

Quote:

They receive disproportionate revenue from the labor of the people, because they own the capital and they capitalize on it.



they are also taking larger risks with their property. So they should also get larger rewards.

Quote:

The premise of a capitalist society is that continual expansion is forever possible. It is not. We live in a finite world. If a business doesn't grow, it dies.



this isn't true at all.

Quote:

In a capitalist society, those born into wealth are born capitalists. From birth they are capitalizing on wealth. Over generations this makes the economy top-heavy, and it comes crashing down. We are witnessing an economy that has collapsed, and will not recover.



these collapses happen when large corporate interests become intermingled with the government. We currently have private gains and public losses. This is not capitalism.

Quote:

In order for any economy to function people have to spend money. In order for Capitalism to function, people have to be fanatically materialistic,



Once again, not true. I don't know why everything has to be taken to its extremes. If my neighbor opens an apple juice stand because he has an apple tree that is capitalism, it has nothing to do with being fanatically materialistic.

Quote:

we live in a finite world that can't support this sort of ever increasing consumerism.population



this is the issue. Even if with go with full bore communism this issue won't be solved.

Quote:

Capitalism is not realistic.



capitalism is what allows resources to be unitized in unique, efficient, and meaningful ways.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21956344 - 07/17/15 02:06 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
The town I live in has a public garden.  We get to plant what we want.  I don't see how choice is being taken from us.



the difference is that the town isn't preventing anyone from planting their own private gardens.




Socialism doesn't do that either. In economic terms 'private property' doesn't refer to that which is individually owned by a person. It refers to private industrial ownership.



socialism prevents me from selling my gardens carrots on the corner.


--------------------
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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: psyconaught]
    #21956351 - 07/17/15 02:08 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
The town I live in has a public garden.  We get to plant what we want.  I don't see how choice is being taken from us.



the difference is that the town isn't preventing anyone from planting their own private gardens.




If all the gardens were private only private interests could plant gardens.

I don't see how that encourages freedom.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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InvisibleShins
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21956361 - 07/17/15 02:09 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

Shins said:
The paradox of communism is that it takes a totalitarian state in order to enforce everything.  Communism cannot exist in the real world on a large scale.




Maybe it can, and maybe it can't. I can't help but think that you're working back from 'I don't like Communism', rather than trying to understand it.

For now, we will have some form of slightly Socialistic Capitalism. I believe that by the next economic crash, which isn't too far off, we will start to see either Socialism or Fascism take over. Capitalism will certainly not have the last say. Capitalism clearly doesn't work, and I can't really imagine how anyone ever thought it would work.






You cannot compel everyone in a nation to voluntarily participate in communism,  you need a authoritarian government in order to force everyone to participate. 

This is why communism on a nation wide scale is impossible;  it REQUIRES a state to force everyone to play by the rules,  but in doing so it negates itself as a textbook definition of communism.



on a small scale it can work.  Smaller, voluntary communities can .get together and voluntarily self regulate.  Some examples are the omish, Mennonites,  hudderites and other similar communes.  They only work as "communism" because it is completely voluntary,  you're free to join or leave as you wish.

"Communism"  on a national svale cannot work because it is INvoluntary;  everyone MUST participate and thus there must be a governing enforcement body in order to force people who do not wish to participate to participate.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Shins]
    #21956376 - 07/17/15 02:12 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

Shins said:
The paradox of communism is that it takes a totalitarian state in order to enforce everything.  Communism cannot exist in the real world on a large scale.




Maybe it can, and maybe it can't. I can't help but think that you're working back from 'I don't like Communism', rather than trying to understand it.

For now, we will have some form of slightly Socialistic Capitalism. I believe that by the next economic crash, which isn't too far off, we will start to see either Socialism or Fascism take over. Capitalism will certainly not have the last say. Capitalism clearly doesn't work, and I can't really imagine how anyone ever thought it would work.






You cannot compel everyone in a nation to voluntarily participate in communism,  you need a authoritarian government in order to force everyone to participate. 

This is why communism on a nation wide scale is impossible;  it REQUIRES a state to force everyone to play by the rules,  but in doing so it negates itself as a textbook definition of communism.



on a small scale it can work.  Smaller, voluntary communities can .get together and voluntarily self regulate.  Some examples are the omish, Mennonites,  hudderites and other similar communes.  They only work as "communism" because it is completely voluntary,  you're free to join or leave as you wish.

"Communism"  on a national svale cannot work because it is INvoluntary;  everyone MUST participate and thus there must be a governing enforcement body in order to force people who do not wish to participate to participate.




Whether Communism could or couldn't work is not a concern of mine. I am not arguing for Communism.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21956379 - 07/17/15 02:12 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
The town I live in has a public garden.  We get to plant what we want.  I don't see how choice is being taken from us.



the difference is that the town isn't preventing anyone from planting their own private gardens.




If all the gardens were private only private interests could plant gardens.

I don't see how that encourages freedom.



thats the thing. Capitalism doesnt prevent public organizations, it just doesnt coerce anyone to do anything. Lets say we live in a capitalistic bubble town, private interests can still have their own gardens and sell the goods at markets, stores, stands, etc. However people will also be allowed to collaborate and operate public gardens, coops, etc. Capitalism gives the freedom of choice to do whatever you want. Thats the beauty of it, no violent coercion.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: psyconaught]
    #21956389 - 07/17/15 02:15 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
The town I live in has a public garden.  We get to plant what we want.  I don't see how choice is being taken from us.



the difference is that the town isn't preventing anyone from planting their own private gardens.




If all the gardens were private only private interests could plant gardens.

I don't see how that encourages freedom.



thats the thing. Capitalism doesnt prevent public organizations, it just doesnt coerce anyone to do anything. Lets say we live in a capitalistic bubble town, private interests can still have their own gardens and sell the goods at markets, stores, stands, etc. However people will also be allowed to collaborate and operate public gardens, coops, etc. Capitalism gives the freedom of choice to do whatever you want. Thats the beauty of it, no violent coercion.




So, you feel that Capitalism is not coercive? Not violently coercive?


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Registered: 11/04/10
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21956408 - 07/17/15 02:18 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
The town I live in has a public garden.  We get to plant what we want.  I don't see how choice is being taken from us.



the difference is that the town isn't preventing anyone from planting their own private gardens.




If all the gardens were private only private interests could plant gardens.

I don't see how that encourages freedom.



thats the thing. Capitalism doesnt prevent public organizations, it just doesnt coerce anyone to do anything. Lets say we live in a capitalistic bubble town, private interests can still have their own gardens and sell the goods at markets, stores, stands, etc. However people will also be allowed to collaborate and operate public gardens, coops, etc. Capitalism gives the freedom of choice to do whatever you want. Thats the beauty of it, no violent coercion.




So, you feel that Capitalism is not coercive? Not violently coercive?



by definition its not


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InvisibleShins
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: psyconaught]
    #21956430 - 07/17/15 02:23 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Communes snd co'ops, and even socialist communities can all exist within capitalism,  the difference is that they would all be voluntarily and anyone could opt in or opt out as they wish.  One of the key features of capitalism is its non-coercion.  You are free to buy or sell or not to, there is no one pointing a gun at your head forcng you to do anything like in socialism.  Buisinesses are required to earn customers based on merit instead on just stealing money by pointing government guns and agents at people like with socialism.  Capitalism is inherently more efficient wich means everyone benefts.  Any time socialists introduce a gin into the room to coerce redistribution,  they can never redistribute it efficiently because they simply spend the money without any regard for earning customers on merit. There needs to be no regard of economic demand when government spends money, every capitalist MUST cater to public demand - this is ehy capitalism better serves humanity than socialism.


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Posts: 1,888
Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: psyconaught]
    #21956452 - 07/17/15 02:28 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

There's only so much land.  Hardline capatilsts beleive it would all be better off in the hands of private owners.

How do coops exist in this state?  The town rents them from Donald Trump?


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21956454 - 07/17/15 02:29 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Didn't we already try feudalism?


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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InvisibleShins
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21956462 - 07/17/15 02:30 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:



So, you feel that Capitalism is not coercive? Not violently coercive?





by definition it is non-coercive, that is its main strength, and also why it is way more morally enlightened than other systems lije socialism.

Socialism  is inherantly about isiung the violence and force of the state to threaten and force people to do things.  Democratic socislism is then the systematic, violent opression of political minority groups.  It is morally wrong to employ the violence of the state to coerce people into participation, an


--------------------
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