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OfflineGalba Cubensis
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Registered: 06/16/15
Posts: 173
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Last seen: 8 years, 5 months
Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21951909 - 07/16/15 12:44 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
communism - public means of production, no state whatsoever

Let me know which of those dozen words confused you.




What especially confused me was the words "public production" in the same sentence as "no state whatsoever".


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,368
Loc: 'Merica Flag
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Galba Cubensis]
    #21951974 - 07/16/15 01:03 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Galba Cubensis said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
communism - public means of production, no state whatsoever

Let me know which of those dozen words confused you.




What especially confused me was the words "public production" in the same sentence as "no state whatsoever".




That's why communism is usually looked at as utopian fantasy. The idea is that the public callls the shots without need a state for coercion.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,368
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21951982 - 07/16/15 01:04 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
What is North Korea?  Capitalism doesn't have a state.  It sure as shit isn't us.

What do you perceive to be the relevant distinction between the three of them?  They are triplets that differ in the number of freckles they have.




Capitalism doesn't need to be without a state.

Here's a boiled down version:

Capitalism - private means production
socialism - public means of production via the state
fascism - private means of production colluding with state
communism - public means of production, no state whatsoever

Let me know which of those dozen words confused you.




That was a nice simple way to lay it out. Means of production is really what it's all about.




Yet nobody, even seasoned keyboard warriors like zappa, understands that.


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Galba Cubensis]
    #21952274 - 07/16/15 02:35 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Galba Cubensis said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
I believe we can't help but share.




What about me then? Do you think I share alot? :laugh: Where do I fit into your nice paradigm?:tongue2:




You shared a lot of bad advice in mushroom cult  :lmafo:


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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OnlineBigbadwooof
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21952569 - 07/16/15 03:48 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

One other aspect of this is that communism is meant to be worldwide. Socialism is a national system, Communism is international. Communism would only arise after Socialism has been around for a long time, and spread worldwide. Socialism would develop the culture required for Communism to arise.
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Quote:

Galba Cubensis said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
I believe we can't help but share.




What about me then? Do you think I share alot? :laugh: Where do I fit into your nice paradigm?:tongue2:




You shared a lot of bad advice in mushroom cult  :lmafo:




Ouch! lmao
He wouldn't be the first, or last! lmao

My first grow someone on here convinced me to start with a LC without a PC or a Flowhood! What a disaster.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


Edited by Bigbadwooof (07/16/15 03:50 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21952848 - 07/16/15 05:01 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
What is North Korea?  Capitalism doesn't have a state.  It sure as shit isn't us.

What do you perceive to be the relevant distinction between the three of them?  They are triplets that differ in the number of freckles they have.




Capitalism doesn't need to be without a state.

Here's a boiled down version:

Capitalism - private means production
socialism - public means of production via the state
fascism - private means of production colluding with state
communism - public means of production, no state whatsoever

Let me know which of those dozen words confused you.




That was a nice simple way to lay it out. Means of production is really what it's all about.



It is actually stupid as fuck.  Communism doesn't exist without total state control.  Communism is not anarchism.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21953565 - 07/16/15 08:06 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Here are the latest results from fox. It looks like hitlery is slowly sinking. Can she stop the slide or is she doomed already?

On the Democratic side, Clinton captures 59 percent among Democratic primary voters compared to 19 percent for Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders.  Last month, 61 percent backed Clinton and 15 percent Sanders (June 21-23).


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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OfflineGalba Cubensis
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Registered: 06/16/15
Posts: 173
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21953733 - 07/16/15 08:48 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
That's why communism is usually looked at as utopian fantasy. The idea is that the public callls the shots without need a state for coercion.




:crazy: Wow, just wow! You seriously have alot of learning to do! :frown:

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
You shared a lot of bad advice in mushroom cult  :lmafo:




Haha, funny, pro dodge though hipster:grin:


--------------------
RETARDS!  I'LL IGNORE ALL OF YOUR ADVICE!  BUT TELL ME WHAT TO DO STILL!


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OnlineBigbadwooof
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21953855 - 07/16/15 09:13 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
What is North Korea?  Capitalism doesn't have a state.  It sure as shit isn't us.

What do you perceive to be the relevant distinction between the three of them?  They are triplets that differ in the number of freckles they have.




Capitalism doesn't need to be without a state.

Here's a boiled down version:

Capitalism - private means production
socialism - public means of production via the state
fascism - private means of production colluding with state
communism - public means of production, no state whatsoever

Let me know which of those dozen words confused you.




That was a nice simple way to lay it out. Means of production is really what it's all about.



It is actually stupid as fuck.  Communism doesn't exist without total state control.  Communism is not anarchism.




Communism is supposed to be a completely decentralized form of self governance. There are different communist philosophies, which include Libertarian Marxism and Anarchist Communism. You can read about them on wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism#Libertarian_Marxism

Quote:

An important concept in Marxism is socialization vs. nationalization. Nationalization is merely state ownership of property, whereas socialization is actual control and management of property by society. Marxism considers socialization its goal, and considers nationalization a tactical issue, with state ownership still being in the realm of the capitalist mode of production. In the words of Engels: "the transformation [...] into State-ownership does not do away with the capitalistic nature of the productive forces. [...] State-ownership of the productive forces is not the solution of the conflict, but concealed within it are the technical conditions that form the elements of that solution".[29] This has led some Marxist groups and tendencies to label states such as the Soviet Union, based on nationalization, as state capitalist.[30




You're referring to violent Socialist revolutions that never really make it beyond capturing the state and imposing a dictatorship. Once they seize power they need to get the country rolling again, so they continue with the same general social structure as they had under Capitalism, but they replace the old rulers (the capitalists) with governmental figures, and to some extent they distribute goods more equitably. They attempt to use strict control to implement cultural changes that, in reality, must arise organically over time.

If you look at Socialist countries that have formed parties and worked their way to power via the democratic system, it is clear that their method is far more successful and results in gradual cultural changes.

I personally don't believe that attempting to impose Socialism via conquering the state (Democratically or violently) is necessarily the only or best route. Even here in America we're seeing community owned utilities popping up, worker cooperatives, landshares, etc. This changes the culture, and possibly creates the atmosphere required to implement real changes in economic structure without the use of force or policy changes.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


Edited by Bigbadwooof (07/16/15 09:14 PM)


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,855
Loc: Foreign Lands
Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21954243 - 07/16/15 11:07 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Here are the latest results from fox. It looks like hitlery is slowly sinking. Can she stop the slide or is she doomed already?

On the Democratic side, Clinton captures 59 percent among Democratic primary voters compared to 19 percent for Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders.  Last month, 61 percent backed Clinton and 15 percent Sanders (June 21-23).




if anyone needs a reason not to vote for Hillary or Jeb, here's one:

http://pinkmonkey.com/dl/library1/sense.pdf

pg 9-16


--------------------


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Galba Cubensis]
    #21954997 - 07/17/15 07:26 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I can elaborate on the can't help but sharing comment but honestly I think you just came here to troll because I gave you a zero (which I removed by the way).

Seriously though, try breathing without sharing or being shared with.  We're all connected and if having that perspective makes me a 'hipster' so be it.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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OfflineGalba Cubensis
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Registered: 06/16/15
Posts: 173
Loc: Norway Flag
Last seen: 8 years, 5 months
Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21955032 - 07/17/15 07:38 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Smarter than you look, nice. Yeah we all connected allright, connected to Gates', Trump's, Kissinger's and the rest of the scums bank accounts. Thats where we connected... Idc about the rating though, just the attitude... So feel free to add it back, as you can see Im building up quite the collection;)


--------------------
RETARDS!  I'LL IGNORE ALL OF YOUR ADVICE!  BUT TELL ME WHAT TO DO STILL!


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,368
Loc: 'Merica Flag
Last seen: 3 hours, 23 minutes
Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21955109 - 07/17/15 08:10 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
What is North Korea?  Capitalism doesn't have a state.  It sure as shit isn't us.

What do you perceive to be the relevant distinction between the three of them?  They are triplets that differ in the number of freckles they have.




Capitalism doesn't need to be without a state.

Here's a boiled down version:

Capitalism - private means production
socialism - public means of production via the state
fascism - private means of production colluding with state
communism - public means of production, no state whatsoever

Let me know which of those dozen words confused you.




That was a nice simple way to lay it out. Means of production is really what it's all about.



It is actually stupid as fuck.  Communism doesn't exist without total state control.  Communism is not anarchism.




You don't need a state to have a public.

Quote:

In political and social sciences, communism (from Latin communis – common, universal)[1][2] is a social, political, and economic ideology and movement whose ultimate goal is the establishment of the communist society, which is a socioeconomic order structured upon the common ownership of the means of production, absence of social classes, money,[3][4] and the state.




from Wikipedia

And like woof said, socialism is the transitional system.


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OnlineBigbadwooof
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21955658 - 07/17/15 11:02 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I think the segment I quoted from wikipedia put the argument that Communism = State Ownership to bed. Part of it was a quote directly from Engels himself.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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InvisibleShins
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21955697 - 07/17/15 11:16 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

The paradox of communism is that it takes a totalitarian state in order to enforce everything.  Communism cannot exist in the real world on a large scale.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Registered: 11/11/09
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Galba Cubensis]
    #21955729 - 07/17/15 11:29 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Galba Cubensis said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
That's why communism is usually looked at as utopian fantasy. The idea is that the public callls the shots without need a state for coercion.




:crazy: Wow, just wow! You seriously have alot of learning to do! :frown:

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
You shared a lot of bad advice in mushroom cult  :lmafo:




Haha, funny, pro dodge though hipster:grin:




Learning about what? The general attitude towards communism?

Also, 'alot' isn't a word.


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OnlineBigbadwooof
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Shins]
    #21955743 - 07/17/15 11:33 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
The paradox of communism is that it takes a totalitarian state in order to enforce everything.  Communism cannot exist in the real world on a large scale.




Maybe it can, and maybe it can't. I can't help but think that you're working back from 'I don't like Communism', rather than trying to understand it.

For now, we will have some form of slightly Socialistic Capitalism. I believe that by the next economic crash, which isn't too far off, we will start to see either Socialism or Fascism take over. Capitalism will certainly not have the last say. Capitalism clearly doesn't work, and I can't really imagine how anyone ever thought it would work.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


Edited by Bigbadwooof (07/17/15 11:36 AM)


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Registered: 11/11/09
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Shins]
    #21955754 - 07/17/15 11:38 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
The paradox of communism is that it takes a totalitarian state in order to enforce everything.  Communism cannot exist in the real world on a large scale.




That's a fallacy. You're just assuming that social creatures can't show solidarity unless they're forced to.

If that were the case, human beings would be extinct. You're right in a sense, though, which is why Marx said it will take years of socialism on a global scale to cultivate a culture of collectivism. Then communism may have a chance.

Being real though: the public doesn't stand a chance at controlling the means of production until we have free energy (meaning fusion power, or hyper efficient nuclear power, vast solar, etc).


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OnlineBigbadwooof
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21955766 - 07/17/15 11:40 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Being real though: the public doesn't stand a chance at controlling the means of production until we have free energy (meaning fusion power, or hyper efficient nuclear power, vast solar, etc).




Why not? The way I see it, if it can be held privately, it can be held Publicly, or Socially.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,368
Loc: 'Merica Flag
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21955777 - 07/17/15 11:45 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Being real though: the public doesn't stand a chance at controlling the means of production until we have free energy (meaning fusion power, or hyper efficient nuclear power, vast solar, etc).




Why not? The way I see it, if it can be held privately, it can be held Publicly, or Socially.




I'm not sayings it's impossible, but until the people get a foothold into something that was once a trillion dollar commodity, like energy, we won't realize we can do it.

Either that, or automation will erase what's left of the job market and governments will be forced to create welfare states to keep people from revolting.

Democracy won't get us there (at least before we run out of resources), it's gonna take a world changing event.


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