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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: psyconaught]
    #21948237 - 07/15/15 04:28 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

As I said earlier, I view my body as a socialist construct.  Many working as one.

Wikipedia uses this as the caption definition.

Socialism: The radical idea of sharing.

I believe we can't help but share.  Maybe I've eaten too many mushrooms.  Maybe I've read too much Alan Watts.  Maybe I've listened to this song to many times...



:shrug:


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: psyconaught]
    #21948242 - 07/15/15 04:29 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Police, fire departments, streets, public education, military, how is this not statewide socialism?



Socialism is the public as a whole controlling the means of production/distribution/exchange of goods and services. Government services on their own does not constitute socialism.




"Socialism is where we all put our resources together and work for the common good of us all and not just for our own benefit. In this sense, we are sharing the wealth within society."

It certainly means what you said too.  But you're only looking at it as opposed to capitalism.



by definition socialism is a political and economic system. I mean by your extremely vague definition posted above then if i help my neighbor shovel his driveway then that is socialism, in which case the word is meaningless as it includes almost every single human interaction.




To define Socialism, we should first look at the goal of Socialism, which is generally to eliminate Social classes. So you don't have drastically different classes or controlling powers. There are no masters under Socialism. Therefore, Socialism includes worker-owned workplaces, and government ownership by the people. Power is equitably distributed to eliminate corruption and coercion.

The first step to implementing Socialism is to overthrow the current power structure. Some countries have done this via violent revolution, and others have created Socialist parties. Most countries haven't gone too far beyond that to actually implement Socialiet principals. Cuba is finally starting to make a real transition, but they are doing some test runs first. It is no small task.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


Edited by Bigbadwooof (07/15/15 04:32 PM)


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21948276 - 07/15/15 04:39 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Woofy thinks he knows what libertarianism is better than the libertarians so naturally he thinks he has the final word on what socialism is.

>To define Socialism, we should first look at the goal of Socialism, which is generally to eliminate Social classes.

Wrong, that's just your view.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21948398 - 07/15/15 05:08 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Woofy thinks he knows what libertarianism is better than the libertarians so naturally he thinks he has the final word on what socialism is.

>To define Socialism, we should first look at the goal of Socialism, which is generally to eliminate Social classes.

Wrong, that's just your view.




Actually, it is clearly the goal of Socialism, as defined by Marx. Care to make a more substantive argument?


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21948489 - 07/15/15 05:26 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Marxism is not the same as socialism, its more like communism which he founded.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21948532 - 07/15/15 05:35 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Cuba is finally starting to make a real transition



Cuba? You mean that country run by a family of homicidal dictators? Fun fact they are currently moving away from the socialist model. They finally legalized small private business's in 2010


--------------------
Think for yourself, question authority


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InvisibleShins
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21948591 - 07/15/15 05:46 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

Shins said:
Lol a workplace democracy,  that's hilarious,  you don't think that would actually work in the real world do you?  The company would go bankrupt in 2 months.  Most workers are not qualified to make business decisions,  they'll just vote themselves raises until the company goes broke.  lol




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-determination

Quote:

Co-determination enjoys intractable support among Germans in principle. In practice, there are many calls for amendments to the laws in various ways. One of the main achievements seems to be that workers are more involved and have more of a voice in their workplaces, which sees a return in high productivity. Furthermore, industrial relations are more harmonious with low levels of strike actions, while better pay and conditions are secured for employees.




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitbestimmungsgesetz

Quote:

While this law was in some ways an extension of the codetermination law of 1951, it differed in key ways. Unlike the 1951 law, however, employees choose their representatives rather than being chosen by the national union; this had the effect of weakening union power.[1] However, employees can use codetermination to protect themselves against wage cuts, layoffs and restructuring, and for this reason, it is believed that wage structure in Germany is remarkably stable.[4]




Germany seems to be doing alright :shrug:






That's not a workplace democracy,  it says workers can elect a representative to be on the board of directors. 

Its a good idea if you ask me, the company can get better feedback from its workers on the front lines.  The board of directors isn't obligated to listen to the worker representative though, within the law.  The board of directors can be almost like a democracy if you are on it.

I think it benefits both the company and workers because the company can better adress the feedback from the workers, and workers can relay needs and information.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Shins]
    #21948630 - 07/15/15 05:53 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

Shins said:
Lol a workplace democracy,  that's hilarious,  you don't think that would actually work in the real world do you?  The company would go bankrupt in 2 months.  Most workers are not qualified to make business decisions,  they'll just vote themselves raises until the company goes broke.  lol




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-determination

Quote:

Co-determination enjoys intractable support among Germans in principle. In practice, there are many calls for amendments to the laws in various ways. One of the main achievements seems to be that workers are more involved and have more of a voice in their workplaces, which sees a return in high productivity. Furthermore, industrial relations are more harmonious with low levels of strike actions, while better pay and conditions are secured for employees.




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitbestimmungsgesetz

Quote:

While this law was in some ways an extension of the codetermination law of 1951, it differed in key ways. Unlike the 1951 law, however, employees choose their representatives rather than being chosen by the national union; this had the effect of weakening union power.[1] However, employees can use codetermination to protect themselves against wage cuts, layoffs and restructuring, and for this reason, it is believed that wage structure in Germany is remarkably stable.[4]




Germany seems to be doing alright :shrug:






That's not a workplace democracy,  it says workers can elect a representative to be on the board of directors. 

Its a good idea if you ask me, the company can get better feedback from its workers on the front lines.  The board of directors isn't obligated to listen to the worker representative though, within the law.  The board of directors can be almost like a democracy if you are on it.

I think it benefits both the company and workers because the company can better adress the feedback from the workers, and workers can relay needs and information.




The workers vote on their representatives. It's more in-line with a representative democracy, but the workers can remove their representatives too, just like we do with congress. It is an excellent model. It's like unionizatiin without union bosses. I wish we would do that here.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: psyconaught]
    #21948635 - 07/15/15 05:54 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Cuba is finally starting to make a real transition



Cuba? You mean that country run by a family of homicidal dictators? Fun fact they are currently moving away from the socialist model. They finally legalized small private business's in 2010




Did you read the link I posted about Cuba?


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21948652 - 07/15/15 05:57 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Marxism is not the same as socialism, its more like communism which he founded.




You really aren't terribly familiar with left-wing politics, are you? You should devote as much time to understanding these things as you do to understanding right-wing politics. Then again, maybe you do.

I am not an expert, but I do try my best to understand both sides, as they both have good points to make.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21948654 - 07/15/15 05:57 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
>Blowing those fucks up is a social benefit the whole world takes advantage of

Again revealing your racist hatred toward arabs.



Arab isn't a race and Arab isn't my issue.  Iranians aren't Arabs, are they?  Pakistanis aren't Arabs, are they?  The Taliban aren't Arabs, are they?  Boko Haram aren't Arabs, are they?  Jemaah Islamiyah aren't Arabs, are they?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21948663 - 07/15/15 05:59 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Marxism is not the same as socialism, its more like communism which he founded.




They are all the same.  There is no relevant distinction


--------------------


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InvisibleShins
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Registered: 09/15/04
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21948676 - 07/15/15 06:02 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
What do you think Russia had? Socialism? Communism? No, they had state capitalism. The state owned the means of production, and decided what to do with the profits, and how the business was to be run. If the workers had owned their workplace, and decided how to appropriate the profits, and how businesses were to be run, they would have been Socialist in Marxian economics.

Socialism is a philosophy against the concentration of power in he hands of owners or political figures. It empowers the worker, not the government.






You're confused young one.

when the state owns the means of production,  that's socialism/communism.  Its always done by saying its for the good ofnall and betterment of society, they always trumpet humanitarian causes but ehat happens is what you say; power concentrates in the hands of political figures and the well connected.  This is the ultimate danger and moral hazard of socialism; it concentrates power into the hands of a few.

there is nothing Cspitslist about it. Calling it "state Cspitslism" is s revelation of the textbook cognitive dissonance you are experiencing.  Sll your life you were told to blame capitalism,  unaware that what you eere complaining about was actually the consequences of too much socialism.  Capitalism aims to level the playig field and give everyone a fair shot in an open market, it has absolutely nothing to do with centealizing power,  the people who get power and wealth are supposed to have earned it by selling a prodect or service that benefits humanity and compells them to buy because of the value it adds to their standard of living.  Socialism aims to legislate people money who mever earned it and never provided any product ehich helped improve society.  Bankers have legislayed themselves unlimited amonts of money and use it to lord over and leech ofg of society.  It was thr socialists who allowed those laws to pass.  It was in the name of economic stability and prosperity for all, of course but in reality it has turned out to be a nightmare ehich is anything but the utopias they promise.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Shins]
    #21948745 - 07/15/15 06:20 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

You believe that capitalism means a level playing field? So the playing field between Paris Hilton and Tyrone Ghetto Kid is the same?

Capitalism = inequality and power concentration, plain and simple.

This is true almost by definition. A Capitalist is a person who capitalises on the labor of another person. They are raised up further and further, and the surplus is concentrated. This is obvious.

You can argue for the merits of Capitalism, but don't spout this nonsense about a 'level playing field'.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21948767 - 07/15/15 06:26 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
>Blowing those fucks up is a social benefit the whole world takes advantage of

Again revealing your racist hatred toward arabs.



Arab isn't a race and Arab isn't my issue.  Iranians aren't Arabs, are they?  Pakistanis aren't Arabs, are they?  The Taliban aren't Arabs, are they?  Boko Haram aren't Arabs, are they?  Jemaah Islamiyah aren't Arabs, are they?




You carefully did not quote the part where I said you also hated everyone over there who is not a jew. You hate arabs and brown people in general. Your racism is plain to see.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21948776 - 07/15/15 06:28 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Marxism is not the same as socialism, its more like communism which he founded.




They are all the same.  There is no relevant distinction




:lolsy:

You still think the ACA is socialism, stop spreading your misapparenhensions as facts.

One could easily argue There's a bigger gap between socialism and communism than socialism and capitalism.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21948856 - 07/15/15 06:42 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
>Blowing those fucks up is a social benefit the whole world takes advantage of

Again revealing your racist hatred toward arabs.



Arab isn't a race and Arab isn't my issue.  Iranians aren't Arabs, are they?  Pakistanis aren't Arabs, are they?  The Taliban aren't Arabs, are they?  Boko Haram aren't Arabs, are they?  Jemaah Islamiyah aren't Arabs, are they?




You carefully did not quote the part where I said you also hated everyone over there who is not a jew. You hate arabs and brown people in general. Your racism is plain to see.




How ironic... Stoney's accusing someone else of racism...


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21948920 - 07/15/15 06:58 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I want equal rights for everyone unlike you left wing types who want the opposite. What is ironic is you trying to redefine words and telling people they don't know the meaning of things.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21948979 - 07/15/15 07:15 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
I want equal rights for everyone unlike you left wing types who want the opposite. What is ironic is you trying to redefine words and telling people they don't know the meaning of things.




What words have I 'redefined'? I asked for one of our Libertarian friends to give me their definition of 'Libertarianism'. They say 'Constitutionalism'... This is clearly wrong, as Libertarianism is a philosophy that can be applied to countries other than the United States (and has been).

You run around with all of your misinformation and expect everyone else to fall in line with it. That's not the way life works. Why don't you define Socialism for us, from your extensive research on the subject.

Capitalism is not a 'level playing field', as I have said. If you are an advocate of Capitalism, at least advocate for it based on it's actual merits. Our whole society celebrates Capitalism. They would do well to understand exactly what it is.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21949001 - 07/15/15 07:22 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

>You run around with all of your misinformation and expect everyone else to fall in line with it

Lol, look who is talking!!!

I notice you dodged what I said about liberals not wanting equality. Probably because you know its true.

>Capitalism is not a 'level playing field', as I have said

Pure capitalism does not exist anywhere nor pure socialism, communism or Marxism.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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