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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,337
Last seen: 1 hour, 6 minutes
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Stonehenge]
#21947093 - 07/15/15 12:20 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: > I've read several articles about them receiving millions just to set up shop and run small businesses out of town.
Your complaint should be addressed to the ones who gave it. You expect wm to turn down money?
pbw >loopholes in the tax code
And you blame wm for that too? Maybe global warming is their fault too?
I don't blame walmart, I blame Capitalism. That's how it works, buddy ;-)
It's called 'rent-seeking'; a natural progression of Capitalism.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#21947190 - 07/15/15 12:43 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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For your information, socialism has been tried over and over. Pure socialism never works but you fellow travelers always want to try it again along with watered down communism. People will not work without a reward and you want to take the reward away.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Le_Canard
The Duk Abides


Registered: 05/16/03
Posts: 94,392
Loc: Earthfarm 1
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Stonehenge]
#21947293 - 07/15/15 01:05 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Stonehenge said: Pure socialism never works but you fellow travelers always want to try it again along with watered down communism.
I agree with you in part. Pure Socialism has never worked. But I think a best solution for everyone would be a mixture of Socialism and capitalism (hardly "watered down communism"). At least take care of the disabled and elderly and maybe help out the poorer workers with such things as food stamps.
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Stonehenge]
#21947331 - 07/15/15 01:12 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Stonehenge said: pbw >loopholes in the tax code
And you blame wm for that too? Maybe global warming is their fault too?
As I said it wasn't really my point. Not to be a dick but you're really grasping at straws (i.e. please don't strawman me bro!).
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,337
Last seen: 1 hour, 6 minutes
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Stonehenge]
#21947396 - 07/15/15 01:29 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Stonehenge said: For your information, socialism has been tried over and over. Pure socialism never works but you fellow travelers always want to try it again along with watered down communism. People will not work without a reward and you want to take the reward away.
Soviet Russia was a form of state Capitalism. The workers didn't own and run their workplace, the government did. What we're seeing in Cuba is a sign of something beautiful.
The real point is, Capitalism doesn't work. As we're seeing the world over. You may say that it's not 'pure capitalism' or 'true capitalism', but it is. Capitalism failed long ago, and has since undergone a balancing act between regulation and deregulation. When it fails, we regulate, when it's successful we deregulate, and it fails again. Unrestrained capitalism doesn't work.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
Edited by Bigbadwooof (07/15/15 01:30 PM)
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,337
Last seen: 1 hour, 6 minutes
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Le_Canard]
#21947404 - 07/15/15 01:32 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Le_Canard said:
Quote:
Stonehenge said: Pure socialism never works but you fellow travelers always want to try it again along with watered down communism.
I agree with you in part. Pure Socialism has never worked. But I think a best solution for everyone would be a mixture of Socialism and capitalism (hardly "watered down communism"). At least take care of the disabled and elderly and maybe help out the poorer workers with such things as food stamps.
Pure Socialism has never occurred. Shit, people around here don't even know the meaning of Socialism. They think it means 'free stuff'.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Shins
Fun guy



Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#21947411 - 07/15/15 01:34 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Lol a workplace democracy, that's hilarious, you don't think that would actually work in the real world do you? The company would go bankrupt in 2 months. Most workers are not qualified to make business decisions, they'll just vote themselves raises until the company goes broke. lol
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Le_Canard
The Duk Abides


Registered: 05/16/03
Posts: 94,392
Loc: Earthfarm 1
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#21947541 - 07/15/15 02:06 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Well, I go by the Merriam-Webster definition here....
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism
Maybe I'm off base here or something, I dunno....
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,855
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Shins]
#21947647 - 07/15/15 02:30 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Shins said: Lol a workplace democracy, that's hilarious, you don't think that would actually work in the real world do you? The company would go bankrupt in 2 months. Most workers are not qualified to make business decisions, they'll just vote themselves raises until the company goes broke. lol
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-determination
Quote:
Co-determination enjoys intractable support among Germans in principle. In practice, there are many calls for amendments to the laws in various ways. One of the main achievements seems to be that workers are more involved and have more of a voice in their workplaces, which sees a return in high productivity. Furthermore, industrial relations are more harmonious with low levels of strike actions, while better pay and conditions are secured for employees.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitbestimmungsgesetz
Quote:
While this law was in some ways an extension of the codetermination law of 1951, it differed in key ways. Unlike the 1951 law, however, employees choose their representatives rather than being chosen by the national union; this had the effect of weakening union power.[1] However, employees can use codetermination to protect themselves against wage cuts, layoffs and restructuring, and for this reason, it is believed that wage structure in Germany is remarkably stable.[4]
Germany seems to be doing alright
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Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,337
Last seen: 1 hour, 6 minutes
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Shins]
#21947829 - 07/15/15 03:04 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said: Lol a workplace democracy, that's hilarious, you don't think that would actually work in the real world do you? The company would go bankrupt in 2 months. Most workers are not qualified to make business decisions, they'll just vote themselves raises until the company goes broke. lol
It can, and has worked. Refer back to my article about Cuba. Not only that, but refer to the German model of business.
I find it hilarious that you feel workers would vote themselves raises til the company went broke, when that's actually what CEO's have done, not workers. Even when businesses are failing CEO's give themselves massive bonuses.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
Edited by Bigbadwooof (07/15/15 03:07 PM)
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psyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#21947887 - 07/15/15 03:17 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
refer to the German model of business.
you are aware german companies have a hierarchical structure right?
-------------------- Think for yourself, question authority
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#21947896 - 07/15/15 03:18 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Woof is drunk again on his bottle of old commie 100 proof. He now thinks Russia had capitalism, no doubt the same for china and cuba?
LC, of course we need some safety nets, but not a hammock for the lazy to occupy the rest of their lives while others support them.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,337
Last seen: 1 hour, 6 minutes
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Stonehenge]
#21947944 - 07/15/15 03:27 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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What do you think Russia had? Socialism? Communism? No, they had state capitalism. The state owned the means of production, and decided what to do with the profits, and how the business was to be run. If the workers had owned their workplace, and decided how to appropriate the profits, and how businesses were to be run, they would have been Socialist in Marxian economics.
Socialism is a philosophy against the concentration of power in he hands of owners or political figures. It empowers the worker, not the government.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,337
Last seen: 1 hour, 6 minutes
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: psyconaught]
#21947977 - 07/15/15 03:31 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
psyconaught said:
Quote:
refer to the German model of business.
you are aware german companies have a hierarchical structure right?
Sure they do, but the power is much more equitably distributed. The workers have a powerful say in how business is run. They are not a purely socialist society by any means, but closer than we are. They are capitalist, as is all of Europe. Though there are varying degrees of socialist principals implemented. I think the heart of Socialism is lost, even amongst many Socialists.
Socialism doesn't mean 'free stuff'.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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psyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#21948018 - 07/15/15 03:40 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
psyconaught said:
Quote:
refer to the German model of business.
you are aware german companies have a hierarchical structure right?
Sure they do, but the power is much more equitably distributed. The workers have a powerful say in how business is run. They are not a purely socialist society by any means, but closer than we are. They are capitalist, as is all of Europe. Though there are varying degrees of socialist principals implemented. I think the heart of Socialism is lost, even amongst many Socialists.
Socialism doesn't mean 'free stuff'.
Company culture is very different than socialism. A state wide socialist society would need to be enforced by the government, this is what i (and most others) highly disagree with. However if a company wants to decentralize decision making on its own then more power to them, there are plenty of examples of companies like that here in the U.S.
-------------------- Think for yourself, question authority
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#21948045 - 07/15/15 03:45 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Police, fire departments, streets, public education, military, how is this not statewide socialism?
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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psyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: paperbackwriter] 1
#21948062 - 07/15/15 03:48 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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paperbackwriter said: Police, fire departments, streets, public education, military, how is this not statewide socialism?
Socialism is the public as a whole controlling the means of production/distribution/exchange of goods and services. Government services on their own does not constitute socialism.
-------------------- Think for yourself, question authority
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,337
Last seen: 1 hour, 6 minutes
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: psyconaught]
#21948095 - 07/15/15 03:53 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
psyconaught said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
psyconaught said:
Quote:
refer to the German model of business.
you are aware german companies have a hierarchical structure right?
Sure they do, but the power is much more equitably distributed. The workers have a powerful say in how business is run. They are not a purely socialist society by any means, but closer than we are. They are capitalist, as is all of Europe. Though there are varying degrees of socialist principals implemented. I think the heart of Socialism is lost, even amongst many Socialists.
Socialism doesn't mean 'free stuff'.
Company culture is very different than socialism. A state wide socialist society would need to be enforced by the government, this is what i (and most others) highly disagree with. However if a company wants to decentralize decision making on its own then more power to them, there are plenty of examples of companies like that here in the U.S.
Under the Mitbestimmungsgesetz, in companies with over 2000 workers just under half the seats on a supervisory board are selected by the workers. In companies with over 500 staff one third of the supervisory must be composed of employee directors under the Drittelbeteiligungsgesetz. With under 500 staff, there is no automatic right of employees to board representation. However, any workplace with over five people allow workers various rights through elected works councils, and if the business has over 20 staff, employees may force the management into arbitration over redundancies.
AktG §87, requires that pay for the executive is set by the supervisory board. In 2009, this was amended so that (1) pay could not exceed the normal level without special justifications, and (2) if performance had deteriorated, executive pay could be reduced to an equitable level.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_company_law#Corporate_governance
This is state enforced...
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: psyconaught]
#21948105 - 07/15/15 03:56 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
psyconaught said:
Quote:
paperbackwriter said: Police, fire departments, streets, public education, military, how is this not statewide socialism?
Socialism is the public as a whole controlling the means of production/distribution/exchange of goods and services. Government services on their own does not constitute socialism.
"Socialism is where we all put our resources together and work for the common good of us all and not just for our own benefit. In this sense, we are sharing the wealth within society."
It certainly means what you said too. But you're only looking at it as opposed to capitalism.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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psyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
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Quote:
paperbackwriter said:
Quote:
psyconaught said:
Quote:
paperbackwriter said: Police, fire departments, streets, public education, military, how is this not statewide socialism?
Socialism is the public as a whole controlling the means of production/distribution/exchange of goods and services. Government services on their own does not constitute socialism.
"Socialism is where we all put our resources together and work for the common good of us all and not just for our own benefit. In this sense, we are sharing the wealth within society."
It certainly means what you said too. But you're only looking at it as opposed to capitalism.
by definition socialism is a political and economic system. I mean by your extremely vague definition posted above then if i help my neighbor shovel his driveway then that is socialism, in which case the word is meaningless as it includes almost every single human interaction.
-------------------- Think for yourself, question authority
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