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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: sweeper54]
    #21943375 - 07/14/15 06:40 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

>Healthcare is the single leading cause for people losing their homes

False, it merely showed that medical bills were part of the situation.

Wan
>How is it a social benefit?

This is his racism, he hates arabs and anyone over there who is not jewish. So killing a lot of them is in his mind a "social benefit"


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21943494 - 07/14/15 07:08 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

The fact that Socialism is viewed more positively has no bearing on what percentage of the country is Republican vs Democrat. Socialism is not synomymous with Democrat. The less informed conservative fringe nuts would have you believe they are the same, but it's just hyperbole.

The idea of Socialism is the result of the most comprehensive critique of capitalism he world has seen thus far. We can't all be cheerleaders of the status quo, or blind nationalists.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


Edited by Bigbadwooof (07/14/15 07:12 PM)


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21943521 - 07/14/15 07:13 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Feeling extra dizzy tonight, woofy?


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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InvisibleDoes

Registered: 02/12/12
Posts: 2,846
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21943647 - 07/14/15 07:46 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

If a person thinks 47% support socialism whether it's true or not, the idea becomes less scary

Condition the animal

If I were running a country I'd like the people to think of the government as socialist, while I accumulate anything of value

people can tear this structure down but I fear time is running out for this option as technology increases

Who knows maybe some righteous tech saavy people would be able to have an impact


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Does] * 1
    #21943893 - 07/14/15 08:38 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The fact that Socialism is viewed more positively has no bearing on what percentage of the country is Republican vs Democrat. Socialism is not synomymous with Democrat.




aint that the truth, the GOP is really starting to piss me the fuck off...

what part of "opposition party" don't they fucking understand? If they wanna be democrats, go be fucking democrats...

Venezuela, Greece, and now Puerto Rico... Socialism always collapses and people suffer, I marvel at the idea that somehow we can do it better just because we're "'Merica"


--------------------
http://www.countdowntotrump.com





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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Does]
    #21944182 - 07/14/15 09:55 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Does said:
If a person thinks 47% support socialism whether it's true or not, the idea becomes less scary

Condition the animal

If I were running a country I'd like the people to think of the government as socialist, while I accumulate anything of value

people can tear this structure down but I fear time is running out for this option as technology increases

Who knows maybe some righteous tech saavy people would be able to have an impact




I'm not 100% sure I understand your post, but if I am reading it correctly, we are in agreement.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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InvisibleDoes

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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21944521 - 07/14/15 11:04 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

Does said:
If a person thinks 47% support socialism whether it's true or not, the idea becomes less scary

Condition the animal

If I were running a country I'd like the people to think of the government as socialist, while I accumulate anything of value

people can tear this structure down but I fear time is running out for this option as technology increases

Who knows maybe some righteous tech saavy people would be able to have an impact




I'm not 100% sure I understand your post, but if I am reading it correctly, we are in agreement.



In theory socialism sounds great but I believe it can be a great tool for control in the nefarious hands of the ones who will most likely wield the power

I think good can still prevail


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21944654 - 07/14/15 11:41 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Single. Payer.



That is a lie.  There is nothing single payer about the millions and millions of people who will be forced to pay.  How's the VA doing?  Medicaid is stupid and sucks and you want the government to be more in charge?  It is a serious lack of intellect that would lead anybody but a total welfare leech to advocate for government health care.  They suck at it as has been demonstrated time and time again.




It is worth reiterating that the U.S. spends far more than any other country per capita on healthcare and does very poorly on indicators of overall health. Clearly our system could be much better (to put it mildly), and a successful model that much of the world uses is the single payer system.



Our cancer survival rates trash Britain's.  Our health care system drives innovation that gets exported to freebooter nations.  Single payer is a complete misnomer and a lie.  Millions of taxpayers support the system and the bums free ride.





So what? France and Japan have similar cancer survival rates as we do, and beat us on some cancers. Our healthcare system doesn't drive innovation, it drives price inflation. When everything is run by money, and not patient health, you get way more research dollars spent on ways to make the most money not help the most patients.

For example, pharmaceutical companies spend relatively little developing a new antibiotic, which we desperately need. Why? Because why spend hundreds of millions designing an entirely new drug that someone will take for two weeks, when you can tweak an existing drug for depression for much less and that patient will be taking it for years.

And your so-called bums already get a free ride in our healthcare system. a much, much more expensive free ride.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: BlackWidow]
    #21945838 - 07/15/15 05:04 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlackWidow said:
I like free things, don't get me wrong, but where will this money to pay for all these things come from?




The better question is where are we going to get the resources to make all these things.  Money can be made up in an instant. Oil, land, lumber, water and food cannot.  There is not enough to support the average american socialists expectations for a baseline and that alone is a deal breaker to me.


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InvisibleBlackWidow
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` [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21946554 - 07/15/15 09:41 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

`


Edited by BlackWidow (02/03/21 03:48 PM)


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: BlackWidow]
    #21946647 - 07/15/15 10:16 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlackWidow said:
Let's make socialism an opt-in system. Anyone in the country who wants this sort of social program can sign up for it. Anyone who doesn't want to participate in socialism simply doesn't sign up for it. I would have no problem with that. The rich folk who want to be left alone and not taxed to hell can be and the ones who want socialism can have it.




Like how the Waltons opted out of paying inheritance tax yet still take advantage of all our socialist systems?

Do they get to opt out of being protected by our military too?  Or driving on our roads?  How exactly does one opt out of socialism?  Really?


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21946849 - 07/15/15 11:18 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Why should there be any inheritance tax at all? They paid taxes on all of it, probably more than once. Then when they die they are supposed to be taxed again?


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21946881 - 07/15/15 11:26 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Why should there be any inheritance tax at all? They paid taxes on all of it, probably more than once. Then when they die they are supposed to be taxed again?




I'm not arguing rather it should or shouldn't exist because that wasn't really my point.  It does exist and the Waltons dodged most of it thanks to loopholes in the tax code.

My point was you can't really opt out of living in a society (get it, socialism) and the benefits it gives unless you move out of the country.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


Edited by paperbackwriter (07/15/15 11:29 AM)


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21946909 - 07/15/15 11:35 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Why should there be any inheritance tax at all? They paid taxes on all of it, probably more than once. Then when they die they are supposed to be taxed again?




I'm not arguing rather it should or shouldn't exist because that wasn't really my point.  It does exist and the Waltons dodged most of it thanks to loopholes in the tax code.

My point was you can't really opt out of living in a society (get it, socialism) and the benefits it gives unless you move out of the country.




Yes, while our tax system subsidizes their business regularly. I've read several articles about them receiving millions just to set up shop and run small businesses out of town. If anything they take from the system.

The biggest advocates of 'Socialism for some' are the wealthiest beneficiaries in our society.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: BlackWidow]
    #21946921 - 07/15/15 11:37 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlackWidow said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

BlackWidow said:
I like free things, don't get me wrong, but where will this money to pay for all these things come from?




I'm so tired of this "socialism = free stuff" equivocation.

Read a damn book.



But that's what it is. That's why the only thing you can say is "read a book." If you're going to mock someone's intelligence, at the very least provide some sort of credible argument.

Let's make socialism an opt-in system. Anyone in the country who wants this sort of social program can sign up for it. Anyone who doesn't want to participate in socialism simply doesn't sign up for it. I would have no problem with that. The rich folk who want to be left alone and not taxed to hell can be and the ones who want socialism can have it.




Socialism is not so narrow a concept. You really have to read a few books to understand it. If you had, I think your view wouldn't be so myopic.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21946930 - 07/15/15 11:41 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I view it like mycelium, working together to grow something beautiful.

I also view my body as socialist :laugh:

It's turtles all the way down motherfuckers!


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21946955 - 07/15/15 11:49 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
I view it like mycelium, working together to grow something beautiful.

I also view my body as socialist :laugh:

It's turtles all the way down motherfuckers!




Turtles? See... complicated subject... I don't even know wtf you mean! Lmao

I view true Socialism as worker empowerment, and democracy within the workplace. You can't have a truly democratic culture when you spend most of your life in a private dictatorship. Cuba is finally attempting to transition into a truly Socialist society, where workers own the means of production. It's going to be fascinating to watch. The real problem with our modern understanding of Socialism is that most people view state capitalism as socialism. It is not.

http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/13918-the-new-cuba-a-beachhead-for-economic-democracy-we-should-support#


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


Edited by Bigbadwooof (07/15/15 11:51 AM)


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21947003 - 07/15/15 12:02 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

It was a bit tongue and cheek.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down

My point was that just as we're small cells organizing into a large collective which we call a body we also organize into a larger collective we call society.  I think socialism, as evolutionary process, is inevitable.

*edit*  Going to read the article you posted.

*edit two*  Fascinating indeed my friend :laugh:


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


Edited by paperbackwriter (07/15/15 12:10 PM)


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21947084 - 07/15/15 12:17 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

> I've read several articles about them receiving millions just to set up shop and run small businesses out of town.

Your complaint should be addressed to the ones who gave it. You expect wm to turn down money?

pbw
>loopholes in the tax code

And you blame wm for that too? Maybe global warming is their fault too?


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: New Poll 47% would vote for a Socialist [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21947088 - 07/15/15 12:18 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Interesting, I've never heard that expression before. I think Socialism is hard to implement, because the culture really has to change. I think we have a few more rumbles to go with Capitalism before people realize how dysfunctional it is. Capitalism is a bipolar mistress. She's been menstruating lately.
Socialism really has to start from the ground up, and if the core philosophical understanding of Socialism is misguided, there can certainly be some terrible outcomes.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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