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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21927112 - 07/11/15 02:19 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

libertarianism is basically a concept to limit the federal government from having any weight in dictating what a state HAS to do. they believe that the federal government should be relegated to maintaining a standing army and be an arbitrator between interstate disputes... hold borders... i can think of a few more later... but the powers of the federal government should be limited greatly. It is not to be a crutch for people.
People on welfare shouldn't even be allowed to vote as a matter of conflict of interest.


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #21927125 - 07/11/15 02:22 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

SneezingPenis said:
libertarianism is basically a concept to limit the federal government from having any weight in dictating what a state HAS to do. they believe that the federal government should be relegated to maintaining a standing army and be an arbitrator between interstate disputes... hold borders... i can think of a few more later... but the powers of the federal government should be limited greatly. It is not to be a crutch for people.
People on welfare shouldn't even be allowed to vote as a matter of conflict of interest.




Sounds like a strict constitutionalist to me...


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #21927140 - 07/11/15 02:27 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

eh, you are an asshole if you think the constitution was meant to be interpreted ONLY one way. it is a living document and was created to be pliable. The greatest minds of that time knew that they did not know what the future would bring and that to be foolish enough to think so was a mistake that all others had made before them.
A lucid and aware population should be able to take these truths and argue to a point that fit that current society best. It outlined fairness and decency to a degree and everything else was left intentionally ambiguous or nebulous because they knew that they didnt know.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: Enlil]
    #21927154 - 07/11/15 02:30 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
There are a variety of reasons that someone becomes a heroin addict.  Addiction to opiates from chronic pain leading to unavailability and seeking alternatives, etc. 

Having a child should only be done when people have sufficient income and savings to weather rough times.  The least educated and prepared, however, have the most children.  Those children grow up with that example, and most of them will do the same.  Subsidizing that cycle doesn't help anyone, including those who are subsidized.  Instead, it serves to give just enough help to allow the cycle to continue unabated.

Rewarding the stupid for doing stupid shit is not the way to a better society overall.




Been meaning to reply to this one, but I didn't have the time.

It is probably one of the greatest examples of false equivalency I've seen as of late, to compare the plights of a heroin addict and a single mother, as if they occupy parallel veins in some way (pun intended).

In my own experience, anecdotally, my mother is a single parent of 4, and the virtue of contraception was a powerful theme of her parental guidance growing up. Not a single one of us has any children.

However, if you insist that it is a proper analogy for the discussion, I submit to you a comically powerful piece of counter evidence to the argument you've made:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2219559/

Giving heroin to heroin addicts has proven quite successful. In several European countries they are doing just that.

I should also point out, interestingly enough, that there is significant evidence demonstrating a strong correlation between drug use and income inequality. Therefore, children of a poor single mother in a society with exceptional wealth inequality are further disadvantaged by an increased incidence of illicit drug use.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
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Edited by Bigbadwooof (07/11/15 02:50 AM)


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #21927291 - 07/11/15 03:24 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

SneezingPenis said:
eh, you are an asshole if you think the constitution was meant to be interpreted ONLY one way. it is a living document and was created to be pliable. The greatest minds of that time knew that they did not know what the future would bring and that to be foolish enough to think so was a mistake that all others had made before them.
A lucid and aware population should be able to take these truths and argue to a point that fit that current society best. It outlined fairness and decency to a degree and everything else was left intentionally ambiguous or nebulous because they knew that they didnt know.






The tenth ammendment grants ALL powers not delegated to the federal govt. to the states. That much is quite clear. That's what libertarians beleive we should be doing...

If the constitution doesn't mean anything, then it doesn't mean anything, merely interpreting it the way you would like to see it doesn't mean that's what it says...

You either beleive in it or you don't, saying that it's open to interpretation is just something people say when they want the federal govt to do things they have no right, power, or business doing...


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #21927300 - 07/11/15 03:30 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

no, it was left malleable enough to allow for an autonomic democracy to decide what is right for it beyond the enumerated freedoms.
The 9th and 14th amendment are some of the most important ones.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21927740 - 07/11/15 07:40 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:

Giving heroin to heroin addicts has proven quite successful. In several European countries they are doing just that.



Quite successful at what?  Your link is unclear what the goal was in those studies other than some vague statement about "determining the therapeutic value of medical heroin prescription for high-risk users". 

And as much as I value your anecdotal evidence (very little), you're not actually arguing that the problem of single motherhood hasn't grown each generation, or that there is no correlation between being raised by a single mother and the likelihood of becoming one.


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #21927757 - 07/11/15 07:44 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

SneezingPenis said:
libertarianism is basically a concept to limit the federal government from having any weight in dictating what a state HAS to do. they believe that the federal government should be relegated to maintaining a standing army and be an arbitrator between interstate disputes... hold borders... i can think of a few more later... but the powers of the federal government should be limited greatly. It is not to be a crutch for people.
People on welfare shouldn't even be allowed to vote as a matter of conflict of interest.




As I said I'm more concerned about having clean air and water than anything else.  Welfare I'm sure we could go back and forth on but frankly I think the impending mass extinction is a larger, if not more immediate, concern for most people.

How do Libertarians interpret the commerce clause?  How do they propose to insure irreducible public goods are not destroyed by selfish business or individual interests?  I understand that the EPA isn't perfect and is subject to unfair legislation and enforcement but I've yet to hear the Libertarian alternative.

People living off the coal industry is a non-starter to me.  Sorry.  I get that Rand Paul is from Kentucky and that coal is important to his constituents.  But air is an irreducible public good and your right to swing your fist ends when it hits my face.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21928022 - 07/11/15 09:10 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

i pulled this off the official libertarian platform website... it is just an article and not exactly a statement from the libertarian party.

Quote:

Who's the greatest polluter of all? The oil companies? The chemical companies? The nuclear power plants? If you guessed "none of the above," you'd be correct. Our government, at the federal, state, and local levels, is the single greatest polluter in the land. In addition, our government doesn't even clean up its own garbage! In 1988, for example, the EPA demanded that the Departments of Energy and Defense clean up 17 of their weapons plants which were leaking radioactive and toxic chemicals -- enough contamination to cost $100 billion in clean-up costs over 50 years! The EPA was simply ignored. No bureaucrats went to jail or were sued for damages. Government departments have sovereign immunity.


In 1984, a Utah court ruled that the U.S. military was negligent in its nuclear testing, causing serious health problems (e.g. death) for the people exposed to radioactive fallout. The Court of Appeals dismissed the claims of the victims, because government employees have sovereign immunity.

Hooker Chemical begged the Niagara Falls School Board not to excavate the land where Hooker had safely stored toxic chemical waste. The school board ignored these warnings and taxpayers had to foot a $30 million relocation bill when health problems arose. The EPA filed suit, not against the reckless school board, but against Hooker Chemical! Government officials have sovereign immunity.

Government, both federal and local, is the greatest single polluter in the U.S. This polluter literally gets away with murder because of sovereign immunity. Libertarians would make government as responsible for its actions as everyone else is expected to be. Libertarians would protect the environment by first abolishing sovereign immunity.

By turning to government for environmental protection, we've placed the fox in charge of the hen house -- and a very large hen house it is! Governments, both federal and local, control over 40% of our country's land mass. Unfortunately, government's stewardship over our land is gradually destroying it.

For example, the Bureau of Land Management controls an area almost twice the size of Texas, including nearly all of Alaska and Nevada. Much of this land is rented to ranchers for grazing cattle. Because ranchers are only renting the land, they have no incentive to take care of it. Not surprisingly, studies as early as 1925 indicated that cattle were twice as likely to die on public ranges and had half as many calves as animals grazing on private lands.

Obviously, owners make better environmental guardians than renters. If the government sold its acreage to private ranchers, the new owners would make sure that they grazed the land sustainably to maximize profit and yield.

Indeed, ownership of wildlife can literally save endangered species from extinction. Between 1979 and 1989, Kenya banned elephant hunting, yet the number of these noble beasts dropped from 65,000 to 19,000. In Zimbabwe during the same time period, however, elephants could be legally owned and sold. The number of elephants increased from 30,000 to 43,000 as their owners became fiercely protective of their "property." Poachers didn't have a chance!

Similarly, commercialization of the buffalo saved it from extinction. We never worry about cattle becoming extinct, because their status as valuable "property" encourages their propagation. The second step libertarians would take to protect the environment and save endangered species would be to encourage private ownership of both land and animals.





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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #21928057 - 07/11/15 09:21 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks for taking the time.  I dug this same article out of google last night when I was trying to answer this question for myself.

It doesn't address irreducible goods such as air and to a lesser extent water.

It also seems to pass a lot of blame onto the government for pollution, which may or may not be true but I do want to address this point.

Quote:

Government, both federal and local, is the greatest single polluter in the U.S. This polluter literally gets away with murder because of sovereign immunity.




There's a couple of Libertarian brothers that have also literally gotten away with murder.  Well paid a fine and moved on.  So I'm not convinced that a Libertarian president would improve the climate situation.  Again I'm not saying the EPA is perfect but I don't see how Libertarianism is better.

Here's sources to back that up.

http://kochcash.org/victims-voices-danielle-smalley-jason-stone/

http://www.truth-out.org/article/item/3929:why-do-these-koch-industries-neighbors-have-cancer


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21929074 - 07/11/15 02:21 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

the koch brothers are a devilish bunch and not the best representative of libertarian ideals. Their model is built around buying the system and if anything they have proven that the current system is broken and can be manipulated into ineffectiveness.

I don't think anyone has a decent solution or platform regarding environmental health because it is ultimately a world-wide issue. The biggest polluter on the planet is China and no one dare try any sanctions against them now.

Carbon credits are a joke and is even more of a catholic indulgences program than what the EPA currently has. Subsidizing solar panels on homes is not going to have any actual impact (especially since they are around 20% efficient right now). Solar Panels are moving at a Moore's Law-esque pace and in 6-10 years should be above 50% efficient and not cost prohibitive to the middle class.

There are so many good ideas out there that are not being given any chance, like underwater "wind" farms (turbines moved by deep currents) and metal-oxide based carbon scrubbing. Why are we trying to create an already obsolete infrastructure via Amtrak? create maglev rail, not high-speed.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: Enlil]
    #21929135 - 07/11/15 02:39 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:

Giving heroin to heroin addicts has proven quite successful. In several European countries they are doing just that.



Quite successful at what?  Your link is unclear what the goal was in those studies other than some vague statement about "determining the therapeutic value of medical heroin prescription for high-risk users". 

And as much as I value your anecdotal evidence (very little), you're not actually arguing that the problem of single motherhood hasn't grown each generation, or that there is no correlation between being raised by a single mother and the likelihood of becoming one.




The study demonstrated that heroin based treatment programs were beneficial to not only the user, but society on the whole, quite clearly. However, as I have stated, I don't find there to be any equivalency here.

There are an increasing number of single parents for a variety of reasons. I would argue that financial instability in low-income homes is a leading cause of divorce, and has a more dramatic impact on the number of single parents than raising the the minimum wage might.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21929214 - 07/11/15 03:01 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks again for taking the time SneezingPenis.

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
There are an increasing number of single parents for a variety of reasons. I would argue that financial instability in low-income homes is a leading cause of divorce, and has a more dramatic impact on the number of single parents than raising the the minimum wage might.




Mass incarceration certainly contributes and is a fairly recent phenomena.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21929348 - 07/11/15 03:36 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:

The study demonstrated that heroin based treatment programs were beneficial to not only the user, but society on the whole, quite clearly. However, as I have stated, I don't find there to be any equivalency here.




Can you quote the part that says that they were beneficial to society as a whole?


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21929414 - 07/11/15 03:50 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
How does libertarian economics address global warming and other environmental concerns?




What global warming?  The globe hss been cooling for the psst 17+ years.  The warming trend of the 70-90's reversed almost two decades ago!  Look another liberal who is ignorant of objective fscts, I'm so suprised.  Why do you guys insist on pushing imaginary, emotional narratives? !

Environmental concerns canbe adressed with propert rights and if needed, regulations for the self defense.of the citizenry.


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Edited by Shins (07/11/15 04:11 PM)


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21929434 - 07/11/15 03:54 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Rand is as anti-EPA as his dad.  I love his drug policies but I love drinking water and fresh air quite a bit more.





What a blatant red herring and false dichotomy.

You are stupidly asduming that without a bloated EPA, thete will be no clean air or water, how you make that leap in your mind is a mystery.


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21929445 - 07/11/15 03:58 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
You're right, I don't understand Libertarianism.  I asked earlier how it handles environmental issues when you first mentioned libertarian economics.

Clean air and water is a major concern of mine.  I do love some Libertarian policies.  I'm honestly interested in hearing how it addresses clean air and water.




Libertarians say that the market will dictate whether clean air and water are valuable enough for people to vote on their behalf with their dollars. We all know that's not the way of things.





No they don't.  You should keep your ignorant and stupid comments to yourself before you go and actually get half a clue what you're talking about.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: Shins]
    #21929470 - 07/11/15 04:03 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Oh, give woofy a break. He tries hard but his brain is hobbled by left wing wacky beliefs. Its the best he can do. I just laugh anymore.

Of course libertarians want clean air and water. They just do not want a bloated bureaucracy which gets more and more huge every year coming up with more and more stupid regulations to justify their existence.

Woofy thinks he knows what libertarianism is better than the libertarians do.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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InvisibleShins
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Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #21929493 - 07/11/15 04:07 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

SneezingPenis said:
no, it was left malleable enough to allow for an autonomic democracy to decide what is right for it beyond the enumerated freedoms.
The 9th and 14th amendment are some of the most important ones.





The constitution was written specifically to PREVENT a tyranny of the majority.

a pure democracy is an insanely terrible idea.

51% vote women should have no rights, that's democracy.

51% decide to vote themselves free money until the country is in a debt crisis?  That's democracy/democrats.

The constitution wad written to have government a REPUBLIC where individual rights are protected from the tyranny of the majority.

the founders were 100x smarter than you.


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: Shins]
    #21929721 - 07/11/15 04:55 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
How does libertarian economics address global warming and other environmental concerns?




What global warming?  The globe hss been cooling for the psst 17+ years.  The warming trend of the 70-90's reversed almost two decades ago!  Look another liberal who is ignorant of objective fscts, I'm so suprised.  Why do you guys insist on pushing imaginary, emotional narratives? !

Environmental concerns canbe adressed with propert rights and if needed, regulations for the self defense.of the citizenry.




Knew this was coming.

I'll agree that the EPA is a mess.  I haven't heard anything from the right much different than what you wrote above.  This is why I can't get behind Rand Paul or anyone else on the right.  Leaving a planet behind for my kids is my number one political concern.

Please show me evidence climate change is not happening.  Please do so by citing a source that's not funded by Exxon or the Koch Brothers.

If you can find one I'd love to see it.  Until then please kindly shut the fuck up.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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