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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21919249 - 07/09/15 10:53 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Minimum wage is enough to feed oneself and get a roof to live under.




And that's about it.


Everything else is a luxury
Quote:



Quote:

The truth, however, is that a person can meet their basic living requirements on minimum wage.




Remember this one?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/laurashin/2013/07/18/why-mcdonalds-employee-budget-has-everyone-up-in-arms/



I notice that budget has a car payment, cable and phone.  How are those necessities?

The minimum should support the minimum.  It's a simple concept.


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: DieCommie]
    #21919302 - 07/09/15 10:56 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Food security is more than rather or not you're literally starving.  It's a mental health issue living under constant fear of not having enough food.  Especially if you have kids.  It's also a physical health issue.  Just because you're not starving doesn't mean that you're well nourished.

Heat is a luxury?  A/C?

More people die in winter and summer from lack of electricity in the U.S. than from starvation.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21919340 - 07/09/15 11:00 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

So starvation is not a problem in the US.  Bad nutrition is.  I agree, that has more to do with personal decisions, meal planning and discipline than lack of resources.  There is free food for anyone that wants it in every large city.  Nutritious food is cheap as long as you plan ahead and spend the time to cook.  Without that discipline the "poor" over spend on junk and get fat and sick.  This is not a resources problem, its a personal problem.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: Achillita]
    #21919347 - 07/09/15 11:01 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Achillita said:
Also, while there are many finite recources, many of them can be replaced with renewable resources, but that would cause many large companies to lose money. Bio fuel is one example.



Have you bothered to look into any of this?  Bio fuel is a pipe dream. It uses far too much land to ever replace fossil fuel.  Source.

The only solution is to reduce population significantly.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21919361 - 07/09/15 11:04 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Food security is more than rather or not you're literally starving.  It's a mental health issue living under constant fear of not having enough food.  Especially if you have kids.  It's also a physical health issue.  Just because you're not starving doesn't mean that you're well nourished.




Kids are a choice and a luxury.  If you're making minimum wage, don't have kids.  If it were up to me, I'd make it illegal to have kids until you've shown that your income is sufficient and that you have enough savings to weather some unexpected circumstances.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: DieCommie]
    #21919372 - 07/09/15 11:06 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
So starvation is not a problem in the US.  Bad nutrition is.  I agree, that has more to do with personal decisions, meal planning and discipline than lack of resources.  There is free food for anyone that wants it in every large city.  Nutritious food is cheap as long as you plan ahead and spend the time to cook.  Without that discipline the "poor" over spend on junk and get fat and sick.  This is not a resources problem, its a personal problem.




Very true, the problems of the poor are mainly due to their own stupid decisions.

I feel like I'm in bizzarro land, enlil has made sense all day. Maybe he lost a bet?


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: Enlil]
    #21919402 - 07/09/15 11:12 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
The only solution is to reduce population significantly.




Its a solution but there is a catch. The catch is that certain technologies and resource gathering businesses need a base population threshold to operate.  Resource exploitation ability scales with population size but it does not scale consistently (or monotonically).  Reduce the population too much and we wont have the ability to support complicated endeavors.  There are about 400 nuclear plants on the earth.  If we reduced the population to 1/400 of what we have now the ability to support even one power plant would be harder than it is now, from the economics of scale.  A population of a few thousand or even million could not support that kind of resource exploitation.

With this in mind I see a kind of saw tooth function where as population goes up the resources per person goes down.  Until we hit a threshold that supports a new means and system of resource exploitation.  At that point resources per person spikes.  At that point we can support more resources per person because we have a higher population.

If we can't make it to the next spike, then a reduction of population will lead to more resources per person, as long as we stay on the same saw tooth and don't reduce population too much.  If we can make it to the next spike then our increased population will support more resources per person.


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OfflineAchillita
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Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: Enlil]
    #21919409 - 07/09/15 11:14 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

We are not referring to obesity, but malnutrition. And even then it does effect peple in the US. I used to live in oklahoma, and I've noticed that a lot of people there don't have enough money to feed themselves sometimes. There is no city to have food runs, the majority of people living there(at least the area I lived in) was completely rural.

Oklahoma also has nearly NO jobs through out the majority of the rural state. As there just isn't anything that makes money. A lot of the younger generation is forced into doing criminal activities and drug trade. Nearly every adult above 25 and below 45 I know has been to jail at least once. While many urban area has a city food bank, rural areas don't get that opportunity.

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Achillita said:
Also, while there are many finite recources, many of them can be replaced with renewable resources, but that would cause many large companies to lose money. Bio fuel is one example.



Have you bothered to look into any of this?  Bio fuel is a pipe dream. It uses far too much land to ever replace fossil fuel.  Source.

The only solution is to reduce population significantly.



Biofuel from the corn stalks is not a pipe dream. In the US, 914 million acres of land are used for agriculture. According to your link a third of it is what would be needed for enough fuel for the whole US. Now while it isn't 100% feasible now, biofuel is making advances every year. And also much of the organic agricultural waste is just being thrown away. I wouldn't doubt there is enough for at least half of the US's fuel demands.


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: Achillita]
    #21919417 - 07/09/15 11:16 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

If you can't afford to feed yourself in a rural area then you need to move to the city.  Living in a rural area is not a right.  Its expensive considering the lack of jobs.  I wish I could do it, I can't.  I have to live in a city.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: Achillita]
    #21919451 - 07/09/15 11:22 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

So, you think that people are starving in the U.S. because they can't afford food, but you want to take 1/3 of the ag land in the nation and divert it to produce biofuel?

You either haven't thought this through or you're blinded by some idealistic fairytale that has no basis in reality.


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OfflineAchillita
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Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: DieCommie]
    #21919456 - 07/09/15 11:23 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Many of the people didn't choose to live there. They live there because they were born there. If you own the land, living in a rural area is the CHEAPEST thing. Certain parts of my family has owned land in oklahoma for over 100 years.

Many people there are the same. The land was given to them, and there is nothing to do with it. They live right on the line of poverty, if not below it.

And moving is even more expensive. And it includes large amounts of money that they don't have.


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: DieCommie]
    #21919457 - 07/09/15 11:23 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Moving is easy is one of the biggest fallacious arguments I see come up in these kind of discussions.  It's not easy, especially if you're poor.

The heat/AC being a luxury question was never responded too.

Having kids should be a choice, I agree.  Unfortunately many of the same people who don't want to raise minimum wage want to make that choice harder.

Not everyone knows how to cook (education problem).  Not every location has easy access to fresh food (see link).  Not everyone has the time to cook (financial problem often compounded by working minimum wage).

http://civileats.com/category/food-deserts-2/

The final point I'd like to make about minimum wage being livable is what happens when you get sick?  You go to work and get everyone else sick (possibly lots of other people if you work in the food industry) or you don't eat, don't pay your bills, don't pay your rent.  Am I missing something?


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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OfflineAchillita
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Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: Enlil]
    #21919476 - 07/09/15 11:28 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
So, you think that people are starving in the U.S. because they can't afford food, but you want to take 1/3 of the ag land in the nation and divert it to produce biofuel?

You either haven't thought this through or you're blinded by some idealistic fairytale that has no basis in reality.



The majority of all the corn produced is used as feed for animals. Almost 90% of it actually. If we cut back on beef or pork production, we'd have enough food to stop world hunger.

But the majority of by products from agriculture are thrown away. They aren't being converted into bio fuel, they are being tossed. You can grow large amounts of food with hydroponics in buildings with multiple floors. Doing so would increase production, save water, and provide tons of cheap food for whole cities. All this while not using much land. The problem with doing so is that it won't make money. The profits would be slim, and it'd take quite a bit of money to invest in it.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: Achillita]
    #21919624 - 07/09/15 11:53 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Achillita said:

The majority of all the corn produced is used as feed for animals. Almost 90% of it actually. If we cut back on beef or pork production, we'd have enough food to stop world hunger.



Why stop there?  Why not have a government-approved food substance that everyone must eat?

The bottom line is this:  There aren't enough resources on the planet to provide everyone with an equivalent lifestyle to the U.S. poverty line.  That's a harsh reality.  If you want to improve the American lifestyle further, it means the rest of the world suffers even more. 

I see no reason to raise the bottom to an even higher level of luxury.  People who work harder and smarter should be rewarded.  People who want to barely skate by should have to live on the edge of survival.


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: Enlil]
    #21919662 - 07/09/15 11:58 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Working smarter in capitalism generally means taking advantage of someone else, especially their labor or their ignorance.

I would also argue that people don't want to just skate by.  Rather it's lack of education, lack of health care, or lack of hope that's holding them back most people don't enjoy the constant stress of living hand to mouth.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


Edited by paperbackwriter (07/09/15 12:08 PM)


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21919895 - 07/09/15 12:50 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

sorry, been working out of town, really long hours, not demanding to get paid more...


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: Enlil]
    #21920340 - 07/09/15 03:02 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
So, you'd be okay with a system that set the minimum at a "living wage" even if it meant that there were no more jobs for students, etc. to make a few bucks over the summer?  Or would you advocate some second-tier minimum wage for certain jobs?




Are you speaking of highschool students. I don't find them to be a priority in this discussion whatsoever. I don't care about Jimmy's extra spending money.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: Enlil]
    #21920366 - 07/09/15 03:07 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Wow, this discussion has really gone to fucking loony town. I don't even know where to begin. It's become clear that a mushroom website is no place for politics.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #21920371 - 07/09/15 03:08 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

SneezingPenis said:
sorry, been working out of town, really long hours, not demanding to get paid more...




Really long hours. Hmm, interesting, considering in the other thread you stated that you don't even work 40 hours a week.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21920561 - 07/09/15 03:41 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Amazing that most of you would opt for social programs rivalling North Korea's.


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