|
Achillita
Back to the basics



Registered: 05/26/14
Posts: 4,565
Last seen: 3 years, 10 days
|
Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: Stonehenge]
#21912517 - 07/07/15 11:15 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
A wage that someone can actually live on would be very beneficial. If people who get paid minimum wage had more money, they'd be able to not use welfare or food stamps. If you complain about people in poverty using all your tax payer money, and yet you don't want to increase the minimum wage so workers can actually buy something is counter productive.
No one is thinking large amounts of money would fix everything, but the poor need a livable wage.
--------------------
|
Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,344
Last seen: 21 minutes, 4 seconds
|
Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: Achillita]
#21913288 - 07/08/15 02:41 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Achillita said: A wage that someone can actually live on would be very beneficial. If people who get paid minimum wage had more money, they'd be able to not use welfare or food stamps. If you complain about people in poverty using all your tax payer money, and yet you don't want to increase the minimum wage so workers can actually buy something is counter productive.
No one is thinking large amounts of money would fix everything, but the poor need a livable wage.
Yep. When full time employees require welfare programs for subsistence, we are literally using our tax dollars to subsidize business profits. If a business can't afford to pay people right, they shouldn't be in business.
The conservative approach makes absolutely no sense, and these assholes have the nerve to call us level-headed liberals 'craaazy' haha!
Their argument can be summed up simply: Anti-collective bargaining, no minimum wage, no trade regulation, and massive corporate tax cuts.
This is clearly a recipe for the disempowerment of labor, and the exacerbation of wealth inequality. You don't want workers to fight for higher wages, you don't want them to have a minimum wage, you don't want to have tarrifs on foreign goods to make American labor more competitive, and you wsnt to give massive tax gifts to the most powerful and wealthy folks in society, cuz their so special! 
Is this coherant to a man of sound mind? Fuck no.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
|
hostileuniverse
Stranger



Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
|
Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#21917967 - 07/09/15 03:30 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Their argument can be summed up simply: Anti-collective bargaining, no minimum wage, no trade regulation, and massive corporate tax cuts.
this actually PROVES conservatives are right, if you get rid of unions(right to work states) decrease regulation(unleash the private sector) and give businesses THEIR own fucking money to invest(tax cuts) you actually provide many jobs, which increases demand for labor, which raises wages, not artificially, but honestly...
would you like me to cite a RED right to work state that encourages investment, where NOBODY works for minimum wage???
Quote:
You don't want workers to fight for higher wages, you don't want them to have a minimum wage, you don't want to have tarrifs on foreign goods to make American labor more competitive, and you wsnt to give massive tax gifts to the most powerful and wealthy folks in society, cuz their so special!
so when you "gift" low skill workers with increased wages for no reason at all, is that because they're "special"???
Quote:
Is this coherant to a man of sound mind? Fuck no.
poppycock, a sound minded individual wouldn't be encouraging people to make careers out of flipping burgers...
|
Achillita
Back to the basics



Registered: 05/26/14
Posts: 4,565
Last seen: 3 years, 10 days
|
Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: hostileuniverse]
#21918410 - 07/09/15 08:19 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
The reason why a minimum wage exists, is so that the average worker, can work on a LIVABLE wage. If everyone has a job, but they are make 10000 dollars a year, that's not helping anything. It's putting people into poverty.
Raising the minimum wage locally and raising it nationally, change the outcome completely. American CEOs make the most money compared to their workers in the whole world. Billions and billions of dollars for nothing. Corporations try to funnel the money upwards often. Most large corporations like mcdonalds, the workers get less than 10% of the total profit. The MAJORITY of minimum wage workers, don't get even a large part of the profit.
The thing is, you shouldn't look down upon someone doing a job if it is minimum wage. They are just trying to live in a world we have created. Not everyone wants to sell retail, and many of them have college degrees. THey're trying to live, just as anyone else. Low level jobs will always exist, we just need people to be bale to live, so they aren't dependent on food stamps or welfare. Many people who do have welfare work full time jobs. Sometimes multiple of them as well.
--------------------
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,509
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: Achillita]
#21918435 - 07/09/15 08:29 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Achillita said: The reason why a minimum wage exists, is so that the average worker, can work on a LIVABLE wage.
Do you have a source for this? This seems to be wholly inconsistent with summer jobs for students, etc. I doubt that minimum wage was ever intended to be the standard for unskilled, full-time labor.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Achillita
Back to the basics



Registered: 05/26/14
Posts: 4,565
Last seen: 3 years, 10 days
|
Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: Enlil]
#21918533 - 07/09/15 09:03 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Even if it was never meant for that, it had definitely become so. I known countless of people, who have to work minimum wage and live. If minimum wage was not intended for unskilled labor, it has definitely come to it. There are very few places that won't pay you minimum wage.
http://www.dol.gov/dol/aboutdol/history/flsa1938.htm If you look through that link, it talks about how the minimum wage was put into place originally. It says consistently in there for the minimum wage to be a liveable wage at the time. And also how it was denied in many places.
--------------------
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,509
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: Achillita]
#21918541 - 07/09/15 09:06 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
So, you'd be okay with a system that set the minimum at a "living wage" even if it meant that there were no more jobs for students, etc. to make a few bucks over the summer? Or would you advocate some second-tier minimum wage for certain jobs?
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Achillita
Back to the basics



Registered: 05/26/14
Posts: 4,565
Last seen: 3 years, 10 days
|
Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: Enlil]
#21918591 - 07/09/15 09:23 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
I think minimum wages should be enough for a single person to be able to live without reying on welfare and food stamps. While it is true, many students get part time jobs for extra money, we have to consider that there are many people who were unable to get a higher education or find a better paying job. These are the people that minimum wage effects the most.
At the moment, minimum wage is not a liveable wage. Not even considering the that many of these people have families or people they take care of. If you have both parents working full time in a household, and are reliant on food stamps, there is some sort of problem. No one is being "lazy".
I don't think that the minimum wage should be sky high, but I think you should be able to live off these wages. I even know a few students who work fulltime as a student and works minimum wage for the place they live.
I'm not sure how well a 2 tier minimum wage system would work, as it'd be very easy to manipulate it so that you still don't pay as much money. I don't claim to be an expert in talking about minimum wage, but I do know something is wrong. Many people complain about the use of food stamps or welfare, but they are a necessity for many hardworking people in the working class.
--------------------
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,509
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: Achillita] 1
#21918647 - 07/09/15 09:41 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Achillita said:
At the moment, minimum wage is not a liveable wage. Not even considering the that many of these people have families or people they take care of. If you have both parents working full time in a household, and are reliant on food stamps, there is some sort of problem. No one is being "lazy".
Minimum wage is a livable wage, though. It won't support a lifestyle of cell phones, cars, etc., but it will certainly support a lifestyle of renting a room with a bed and access to a toilet.
That's a far higher standard of living than most of the world enjoys.
Minimum wage should support a minimum lifestyle...not a life of luxury and comfort. Once someone works his/her way out of minimum wage, he/she can start adding luxuries.
BTW, having a child is a luxury...
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
|
Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#21918680 - 07/09/15 09:47 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
.
Edited by DieCommie (11/21/16 01:46 PM)
|
Achillita
Back to the basics



Registered: 05/26/14
Posts: 4,565
Last seen: 3 years, 10 days
|
Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: DieCommie]
#21918719 - 07/09/15 10:02 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
In the US, some sort of phone is nearly a necessity now. And while there are great plans for saving money(like 30 dollars a month, unlimited everything), the amount of money is still spread thin. Many jobs nearly require cell phones for contact for hours and other things. It never says so, but it is always recommended.
And taking care of older family, and children that either were accidents, or they were promised to to take care of.
To DieCommie, I agree that the strain on earth's natural resources are a big deal, we have to account for inflation. The real problem with the need to increase minimum wage is the need to decrease poverty. We have people who are nearly starving daily and requiring government help just to feed themselves. The way our whole economy works is wanting more, and trying to obtain it.
We do need to protect the environment, while also decreasing the poverty line, and the growing difference between the rich and the poor. The LARGE majority of the US's wealth goes to the upper class. THe lower and middle class are becoming poorer and poorer.
--------------------
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,509
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: Achillita]
#21918756 - 07/09/15 10:08 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Achillita said: In the US, some sort of phone is nearly a necessity now. And while there are great plans for saving money(like 30 dollars a month, unlimited everything), the amount of money is still spread thin. Many jobs nearly require cell phones for contact for hours and other things. It never says so, but it is always recommended.
And taking care of older family, and children that either were accidents, or they were promised to to take care of.
I disagree. Lots of people get by without cell phones. Children are always a choice. There is no accidental childbirth.
The only reason you feel the way you do is because you can't see beyond your western entitlement ethic that somehow makes you feel like you shouldn't have to live below a certain standard. That ethic is inherently elitist, however, because it necessarily requires that most of the rest of the world live in conditions that you find unacceptable.
You do realize that this is a zero-sum game, right? There is a finite amount of resources on the planet. The U.S. has long enjoyed an incredibly high standard of living such that our poor live better than the bulk of the planet. You'd make that standard even higher, thus bringing down the rest of the planet further.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
|
Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: Achillita]
#21918769 - 07/09/15 10:09 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
The socialists keep demanding handouts and for a change enlil is on the right side of an issue. This may be a first!
Why should those doing bottom tier jobs, people who never invested in education or training and who have little experience get paid enough to support a family or live high on the hog?
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
|
Achillita
Back to the basics



Registered: 05/26/14
Posts: 4,565
Last seen: 3 years, 10 days
|
Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: Stonehenge]
#21919143 - 07/09/15 10:38 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
I know that people an get by without cellphones, so I'll take that out of the equation. And yes while much of the world has low standards of living, the real problem that should be dealt with is starvation. Many in the US don't make enough money to eve feed themselves.
The bottom tier jobs are always going to be the majority of jobs, as it's how the world is built. If you have 100 people in middle management, there needs to be thousands below them. It's how big business works.
How many of you have lived below the poverty line? When I was a young child, my mom and my dad divorced, and since my dad wasn't mentally sound at the time, me and my sister lived with my mom. My mom would work 60 hours a week when she could, and otherwise we were homeless, living with her friends or family for weeks to months. We didn't have enough money to live in a permanent dwelling long, so she couldn't get a job or enough money, so we couldn't live in a permanent dwelling. We barely had enough to eat at most times.
It's a vicious cycle. And while I could care less about the stand of living that we have, we should be able to provide enough money for food and a home. As we advance in agriculture, we have more food than we ever were able to have. And yet, we still have people starving in this country and in the world. There are many techniques that could increase production further, without taking much land, but doing so would require a large amount of money to start, and would barely reap any sort of profit. It'd be just enough to keep the farm running.
--------------------
|
paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
|
Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: Achillita]
#21919198 - 07/09/15 10:44 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
How can someone be anti-contraception and anti-abortion but not want the babies born to have a good quality of life?
Wage slaves. That's the only reasonable answer I can think of.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,509
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: Achillita]
#21919199 - 07/09/15 10:44 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Achillita said: Many in the US don't make enough money to eve feed themselves.
Really? Can you cite some source showing that there are masses of people in the U.S. dying of starvation?
Minimum wage is enough to feed oneself and get a roof to live under. Of course, why spend your money on food when you can get food stamps? People prioritize based on the current system, and that would be true at any standard of living.
The truth, however, is that a person can meet their basic living requirements on minimum wage.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
|
Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: Enlil]
#21919217 - 07/09/15 10:48 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Enlil said: Minimum wage is enough to feed oneself and get a roof to live under.
And that's about it.
Quote:
The truth, however, is that a person can meet their basic living requirements on minimum wage.
Remember this one?
http://www.forbes.com/sites/laurashin/2013/07/18/why-mcdonalds-employee-budget-has-everyone-up-in-arms/
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
|
DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
|
Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: Enlil]
#21919221 - 07/09/15 10:48 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
You don't need a wage of any kind to avoid starvation. There is free food in every major city in the US. I have never seen anybody in a starving state in the US, besides anorexics and tweakers, absolutely never. Its a myth invented by the left. If not, where are the statistics on how many people starve to death in the US?
|
DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
|
Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: paperbackwriter]
#21919240 - 07/09/15 10:51 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
paperbackwriter said:
Quote:
Enlil said: Minimum wage is enough to feed oneself and get a roof to live under.
And that's about it.
The minimum wage in the US allows you to consume more than 90% of humanity consumes and more than the earth can sustain per capita. You lack perspective. Minimum wage is more than survivable. People on minimum wage have clothes, bicycles, electricity, running water, TVs, etc. Much more than just food and a roof. A bum with a tent at the soup kitchen has food and a roof.
|
Achillita
Back to the basics



Registered: 05/26/14
Posts: 4,565
Last seen: 3 years, 10 days
|
Re: Bernie Sanders draws 10,000 people, most of any candidate yet! [Re: Enlil]
#21919241 - 07/09/15 10:51 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Also, while there are many finite recources, many of them can be replaced with renewable resources, but that would cause many large companies to lose money. Bio fuel is one example.
There are many ways to work around the finite resources as we change our society. We need to become more resourceful and less wasteful. But it's not impossible to do such things.Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Achillita said: Many in the US don't make enough money to eve feed themselves.
Really? Can you cite some source showing that there are masses of people in the U.S. dying of starvation?
Minimum wage is enough to feed oneself and get a roof to live under. Of course, why spend your money on food when you can get food stamps? People prioritize based on the current system, and that would be true at any standard of living.
The truth, however, is that a person can meet their basic living requirements on minimum wage.
http://www.worldhunger.org/articles/Learn/us_hunger_facts.htm 14.3% of the US is fod insecure. While it isn't an overwhelming number, it is still very relevant. 5.6% of US household have reduced eating patterns or less frequent eating because of it. Poverty may not be fixed, but starvation can be.
--------------------
|
|