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Invisiblechodamunky
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Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 2,030
Loc: sailing the seas of chees...
Phi, nature's number
    #2188849 - 12/18/03 11:01 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

1.6180339887..... if I told you this number plays a part in the way your body is proportioned, how DNA is structured, how spiral universes are made, in population growth, how the stock market fluctuates, in music, art, geometry, and how plants grow (just to name a few), would you believe me?

http://www.phinest.com/  May your mind be totally blown  :shocked:

If you decide to poke around that site, make sure to read the ENERGY sub-section, very interesting stuff. btw, what does this have to do with spirituality? This number appears to be a fundamental component to the structure of the universe, is this nature's way of keeping order or was this all set into motion by [a] God(s)?


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OfflinePositronius
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Re: Phi, nature's number [Re: chodamunky]
    #2188857 - 12/18/03 11:05 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

you would think that the proprietors of such a profound discovery could design a half-decent website. Half the stuff on that site makes no sense, especially the art section. They divide some paintings into a bunch of blocks that dont pertain to anything.


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and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


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Offlinerecalcitrant
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Re: Phi, nature's number [Re: chodamunky]
    #2188867 - 12/18/03 11:08 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

phi eh? I learned it as the "golden ratio"

...and yeah, more than coincidental?


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We have to answer our own prayers


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Registered: 01/30/03
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Re: Phi, nature's number [Re: chodamunky]
    #2188886 - 12/18/03 11:17 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I think it is interesting how phi is the only number that is defined as phi^2=phi + 1. The two solutions are 1.618 and 0.618.

"you would think that the proprietors of such a profound discovery could design a half-decent website."

why is that? where is the connection?

"Half the stuff on that site makes no sense"

to who, you?

"They divide some paintings into a bunch of blocks that dont pertain to anything."

They are demonstrating how the golden ratio pertains to aesthetic appeal.


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OfflinePositronius
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Re: Phi, nature's number [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2188897 - 12/18/03 11:22 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

well, you see, designing a website is pretty easy stuff, like eating cake, and that website looks like trash, why wrap a golden egg in an oily peice of plastic?

no, the art section makes no fucking sense, take another look at the painting by Georges Pierre Seurat, They are drawing lines to suit their own needs.


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and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


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Invisiblechodamunky
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Re: Phi, nature's number [Re: Positronius]
    #2188908 - 12/18/03 11:30 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

The whole point of that website is to not scientifically prove to you why some painting happens to fit the golden ratio, but rather to stir interest in those who have never heard of phi, in as many visual ways as possible. Those lines that he draws all over the paintings are derived in another section of the website, they are not just random sized lines with cheesy colors, hell, u don't even have to look at them to believe it, print yourself a large copy of the picture and measure it out for yourself.


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OfflinePositronius
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Re: Phi, nature's number [Re: chodamunky]
    #2188912 - 12/18/03 11:33 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

sure, but my point is that they are bending the fact to suit their needs, as displayed in said painting.

Its cool shit though, Bravo for the magic number, now...lets get back to work.


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and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Phi, nature's number [Re: Positronius]
    #2188923 - 12/18/03 11:37 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

well, you see, designing a website is pretty easy stuff, like eating cake, and that website looks like trash, why wrap a golden egg in an oily peice of plastic?





the information is there. the quality of the website has no logical connection to the information. Also, the word is spelled piece.

Quote:

no, the art section makes no fucking sense, take another look at the painting by Georges Pierre Seurat, They are drawing lines to suit their own needs.





Like chodamunky said, measure it out yourself.


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OfflinePositronius
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Re: Phi, nature's number [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2188943 - 12/18/03 11:47 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

"Also, the word is spelled piece."

oooooh, good burn man, you got me! do you feel like a big man now? I hope you do, miniscule spelling corrections are a sure sign of advanced intelligence.

"Like chodamunky said, measure it out yourself"

hey, use your illusion man, just have fun with it.


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and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Phi, nature's number [Re: Positronius]
    #2188970 - 12/18/03 11:56 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

oooooh, good burn man, you got me! do you feel like a big man now? I hope you do, miniscule spelling corrections are a sure sign of advanced intelligence.




I'm a petty asshole. I have it down to a science.


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Invisiblechodamunky
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Re: Phi, nature's number [Re: chodamunky]
    #2189071 - 12/19/03 12:50 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Phi is derived from the Fibonacci sequence 0, 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55, 89, 144, . . . where the next number in the sequence is a result of adding the previous two. (the number phi can be found in this series by simply dividing any two consecutive numbers, the bigger the numbers, the more accurate the number phi becomes 1.6180339887...) The numbers in this sequence are very common in nature, for example: the following picture of a sunflower has two sets of opposing spirals, my drawing isn't perfect but u get the idea. A sunflower will always have 34 spirals going in one direction (white) and 55 going in the other (red), or if the sunflower is a large species, the combo will be 55 and 89, or 21 and 34, but always the numbers from the fibonacci sequence. Count how many leaves there are..................................well for those of you who are too lazy to count, there are exactly 34 leaves, a number from the sequence!



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OfflineSteevil
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Re: Phi, nature's number [Re: chodamunky]
    #2189600 - 12/19/03 07:48 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

There's some fascinating stuff on the website (although the design does suck). My problem is with this bit:

Quote:

what does this have to do with spirituality? This number appears to be a fundamental component to the structure of the universe, is this nature's way of keeping order or was this all set into motion by (a) God(s)?




This is how I see all this phi stuff:

There is some number which is the ratio of a line to a section of that line such that it is also the ratio of that section to the remaining section. No evidence of God here, nor indeed evidence of Nature having intended anything.

That ratio is closely linked with efficiency in geometric shapes or series. Makes sense so far, still all maths, no god yet.

Now, "how DNA is structured, ... how spiral universes are made, in population growth, how the stock market fluctuates, in music ... geometry": all these things are based heavily on mathematics, either because of physics or chemistry, or because they rest on geometry (yes, music is mathematical, but if you're not convinced I'll return to it later). There's certainly nothing magical about mathematical thingies being based on ratios.

"the way your body is proportioned, and how plants grow": Living things will thrive if they can get everything they can out of limited resources, so they will form into the most efficient shapes possible, and suchlike. Being efficiently shaped, they will display evidence of the ratio, which we know is linked to efficiency.

"art" as well as architecture, music, etc: A little trickier to explain, but you can still come up with an explanation that doesn't involve deities. If living things which are efficiently proportioned are the most successful, then living things which are attracted to efficiently proportioned partners will have more successful offspring. This suggests a reason why Phi is related to beauty in people (the ancient Greeks had a lot of ideas about Phi and aesthetics, I believe). When we create art, including architecture, etc, and try to make something beautiful, our Phi-related ideas about beauty show through. I don't know to what extent you can apply this to music.

This is all pure conjecture, I'll admit, but it is at least plausible and is a way of thinking about it that doesn't require us to infer a designing deity (which I generally think is a ludicrous inference from any observation of the natural world, but that's just my opinion). If there is an explanation which is based on things we know about the universe, I think it's preferable to an explanation which means we have to believe in something which has never been experienced by anyone. Occam's razor, and all that.


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All the days of his vow of separation no razor shall pass over his head. He shall be holy ... he shall let the locks of hair on his head grow long.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Phi, nature's number [Re: chodamunky]
    #2190595 - 12/19/03 03:34 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Hmmm. Phi...the Fibonacci sequence...

Take any two sequencial numbers from the Fibonacci, and take the ratio of the larger over the smaller...and you get Phi.

Note that this is also a nearly exact conversion from imperial Miles to metric Kilometers. The further down the sequence you go, the more accurate the conversion.


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You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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Invisiblechodamunky
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Re: Phi, nature's number [Re: Steevil]
    #2190730 - 12/19/03 04:04 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Steevil, excellent post man, I see it the same way you do with no God(s) needed. I did a report on Phi for a class this year and you are completely correct about the efficiency aspect of this number. Nature has seemed to zone in on the best way to grow stuff. Using the sunflower as an example, the seeds in the head are all arranged in the golden spiral, which has an angle of 137.507764?. At this angle, the seeds are arranged most compactly and efficient in the alloted space, and as you have guessed, this angle is derived from the Fibonacci sequence. ( nice info )

I think all of nature may be explained mathematically because it is material, but things like psychadelic experiences I am not so sure science can explain. One thing is for certain, the more places you look for this number, the more you find it popping out of places you would least expect. There have been studies done that show our heart beats to phi! (there is something about that in the original link in my post) I really wonder how deep this mathematical rabbit hole goes.


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Phi, nature's number [Re: chodamunky]
    #2190827 - 12/19/03 04:33 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I wonder if you can find phi in atomic theory. Like atomic number to atomic mass or valence electrons to neutrons or something. I'm gonna get a periodic chart and look.


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OfflineBlastrid
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Re: Phi, nature's number [Re: chodamunky]
    #2190845 - 12/19/03 04:41 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

There are many attempts to assign Phi relationships to the great composers: Beethoven, Bach, Mozart... Although some studies seem to pull significance out of the air,some composers such as Berlioz, Shoenburg, and possibly the previously mentioned did in fact use the Golden Ratio quite a bit, in measure counting, key relationships, intervals, etc. Boards of Canada use it as well, (they've got a song called "A is to B as B is to C" although I haven't figured out in what way...

This has always interested me in terms of musical application and study, unfortunately I haven't found great texts concerning it (Soundmind referred a book to me I have yet to get: "The Cosmic Octave").
You're right Steevil and Choda, Phi is not God, nor does it reference the existence of any diety, just the efficiency of nature and all things based on mathematics.

I've never seen such blatantly amazing art and math than Leonardo daVinci's canon. The Phi relationships are almost too numerous to count:


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Blas'?trid (bl?s tr?d)
    n.  3rd generation derivitave of a combination of 'bastard' and 'blasted'.  Used as both an insult or an expletive.
    ex.  Blastrid!

Stereopattern  <--My music.


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OfflinePositronius
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Re: Phi, nature's number [Re: Blastrid]
    #2193908 - 12/21/03 03:47 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

is it really all that amazing that life is structures in a circular pattern?

all of life on earth comes from what? a giant circle of fire in the sky. So doesnt it make sense that everything that came from that point of origin should imitate its form?


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and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: Phi, nature's number [Re: Positronius]
    #2194009 - 12/21/03 04:32 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Your asking if it make sense that the universe is self similar across scale? Like a fractal? 50 years ago they would have called it "coincidence". I don't know if it implies the existence of a god, but it sure as hell is interesting.


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Offlinebumski
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Re: Phi, nature's number [Re: Revelation]
    #2194104 - 12/21/03 05:52 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

The blue lady at the very bottom of the art section looks fuckin weird. I'm gonna have a bad trip.


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Cheech: Hey man, the house is bein' raided man! opsCays! You hear me man? get-outski!


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Offlinepsychopsilocyber
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Re: Phi, nature's number [Re: chodamunky]
    #2194263 - 12/21/03 07:55 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Me and a few friends coined the term "chaos netting" for the dmt experience, or at least we thought, others already have a name for it - Indra's net. Each part of the net holds a reflection of every other reflection, and you cant have 1 view-point without having all view-points, or you cant have all without having 1. Us humans are like viewpoints. Check out this link to some Allen Watts clips...damnit the link is down, can someone send me a link to some more clips? that sucks there were like 8 clips of Watts and other clips of I forgot.


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Eco friendly extraction is the only way to go for Dmt, mescaline, and iboga


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