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Offlineglimpee
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The Morality of Manipulation?
    #21887910 - 07/02/15 01:21 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

So I've known for a while that I'm pretty good at manipulating people. Guiding them to the answer I want them to give - getting them to give me stuff, etc.

For example - if my parents start an argument with me, I completely turn it around and have even gotten money/apologies

I would get younger kids to do REDICULOUS things for me. I branded myself as a "hot item" to them - I had a car, my little brother was in their grade, and other shit. They would smoke me down like a Q every time they got in my car. They also paid for movie tickets, and I got one to pay $50 I owed someone else.

Now - I can definitely see what would be considered wrong in those situations - but in terms of spirituality - what do different religions/beliefs think about manipulation? Using superior social/psychological knowledge to get people to do what you want

In a way, its like survival of the fittest, one of the deepest natural rules of life. I am socially/intellectually superior - and they allow me to have power.



The issue is - do people even realize they're being manipulated? Do they really have a choice to not be? If you're so discreet in your manipulation no one has any idea - I feel like it would be worse. I feel like the manipulee needs a CHANCE to get away for it to be considered "morally OK"

but at the same time, if someone tries to manipulate me, I shut it down.


What do you guys think about manipulation? It has a really harsh stigma - but lets look at it objectively, from the eyes of those who wish to rise spiritually

Thanks for any input


--------------------
Just because I am arrogant does not mean I forget my place. It is how I choose to talk. I am not a monk. I am my own path, and I am without influence. Talk to me about my core being before you question my mental stability or life-choices. Chances are, they're only shocking to you because they don't fit your idea of what is.




Check out my Art Journal for some stuff I do http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21647069


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Offlineglimpee
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Re: The Morality of Manipulation? [Re: glimpee]
    #21887926 - 07/02/15 01:26 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Ive encountered an interesting point online - the element of lying plays into the morality.

But does that make it any better that I basically "encourage" kids to give me TONS of weed and money, and I never lie about anything during the process? I'm still selfishly taking from them - with the prior intention of doing so. But I'm not lying.

At what point do you throw out the morality and just say "damn that kid was dumb, he LET that happen" or does that not negate the morality?

This is a hard fucking question for me


--------------------
Just because I am arrogant does not mean I forget my place. It is how I choose to talk. I am not a monk. I am my own path, and I am without influence. Talk to me about my core being before you question my mental stability or life-choices. Chances are, they're only shocking to you because they don't fit your idea of what is.




Check out my Art Journal for some stuff I do http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21647069


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Offlinedeff
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Re: The Morality of Manipulation? [Re: glimpee]
    #21887952 - 07/02/15 01:32 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

i think most religions and spiritual paths have some notion of 'do unto others what you would want done unto you' :smile: so if you would rather not be manipulated, which i think most people wouldn't want, then it's basic respect and basic kindness to not be manipulative towards others :smile: plus, i think fostering true and deep kindness/love/compassion with others is a sure way to become happier yourself, so it's win-win :smile:


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Offlineglimpee
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Re: The Morality of Manipulation? [Re: glimpee]
    #21887956 - 07/02/15 01:33 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Good quote "So for example, let’s say I was selling somebody a car and I had all of my tools of persuasion and strategies. That person walked into my dealership and it was apparent, with a family of six kids, they were looking for and genuinely needed a family-sized, affordable vehicle.

But, I then leveraged all of my persuasive abilities to convince the parent that he shouldn’t be buying a mini van but rather a two-seater convertible to reclaim his youth, and in doing so, teach his children how important it is to stay true to their youthful ideals, knowing full well that I would make twice the commission on that car and it was completely unsuitable for them.

That’s manipulation.

Now, what if that same parent came into my dealership with the same six kids and said to me, “Man, I just want to blow some cash. I should buy a six-seater. I know it’s completely irrational and I really can’t justify this, but I’m just jonesing for the two-seater convertible?”

And, what if I then I used my persuasive abilities to slowly and methodically lay out a conversation and a set of facts that led this parent to understand the genuine benefit of purchasing the more affordable and suitable family car?

That’s persuasion, not manipulation."





So this dude is saying that bringing out someones desire that also benefits you is persuasion, rather than manipulation. So if I get a kid to give me a Q of weed - but he does so because he thinks I'm a cool dude and wants to "get in" with me or whatever - does that make me taking his nug "persuasion?"

does that make it "ok?" It seems manipulation is a very complex topic - so I'm eager to hear what others already think about it


--------------------
Just because I am arrogant does not mean I forget my place. It is how I choose to talk. I am not a monk. I am my own path, and I am without influence. Talk to me about my core being before you question my mental stability or life-choices. Chances are, they're only shocking to you because they don't fit your idea of what is.




Check out my Art Journal for some stuff I do http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21647069


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Invisiblemeowshroom
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Re: The Morality of Manipulation? [Re: glimpee]
    #21888039 - 07/02/15 01:52 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Asking this question is a very philosophical one.    Some people are really going to despise you, but on the other hand, like most politicians, you're probably a sociopath to some degree.  No offense meant.  I've voted for lots of sociopaths in my life, I'm sure.

As soon as I started reading, Sartre came to mind.  This guy definitely ate mushrooms.  This BBC quicky is well worth the watch, IMO.

But to answer your question, there is no answer...  It depends if you believe in a god.  One could argue that if you don't, or believe in reincarnation, you are doing great harm to yourself.   

The only answer one can really give you is a question... eg, What kind of person do you want to be?  If one is only judged on their actions in life, do you want to be known as someone who tricks people? 

Maybe you were a fraudster in your past life, but you were a good person deep down, so this is your second chance...  Maybe if you don't mend your ways you'll end up in the next life as an animal in a zoo?  I hope you didn't come here for reaffirming answers to your question, as I cannot imagine most people who take spiritual trips are going to approve of what you're doing much.  Save that shit for women and politicians.

Anyways... Sartre...



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Offlineglimpee
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Re: The Morality of Manipulation? [Re: meowshroom]
    #21888099 - 07/02/15 02:08 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

meowshroom said:
Asking this question is a very philosophical one.    Some people are really going to despise you, but on the other hand, like most politicians, you're probably a sociopath to some degree.  No offense meant.  I've voted for lots of sociopaths in my life, I'm sure.

As soon as I started reading, Sartre came to mind.  This guy definitely ate mushrooms.  This BBC quicky is well worth the watch, IMO.

But to answer your question, there is no answer...  It depends if you believe in a god.  One could argue that if you don't, or believe in reincarnation, you are doing great harm to yourself.   

The only answer one can really give you is a question... eg, What kind of person do you want to be?  If one is only judged on their actions in life, do you want to be known as someone who tricks people? 

Maybe you were a fraudster in your past life, but you were a good person deep down, so this is your second chance...  Maybe if you don't mend your ways you'll end up in the next life as an animal in a zoo?  I hope you didn't come here for reaffirming answers to your question, as I cannot imagine most people who take spiritual trips are going to approve of what you're doing much.  Save that shit for women and politicians.

Anyways... Sartre...







Good points - Im going to watch the video after I write this

Personally - at this point I only manipulate when I'm cornered. For example, my big brother got mad at me and told my dad I had a snapchat story with tabs on my tongue - months ago, but whatever. My dad was also drinking and ran downstairs and started yelling at me - saying hes done, get out, all this shit. He was being irrational and didn't even talk to me before assuming I was just spending all my $$ on drugs.

By the end of the night, he was in trouble, he apologized, and I also established a better position with my parents so that if my big brother tries to fuck with my life again, my parents wil take my side.

I havent dont that shit where I make a kid give me a ton of shit for a car ride in a while. I DID sell a kid $60 of stuff for $140 - but he was also being ridiculous, stupid, and I had to drive to the next state over and go to over 5 smoke shops.



But I'm here not to talk about me - but to discuss the morality of manipulation. Does manipulation goes against the idea of empathy? Does it block the spiritual process? I think it's one of those things that is a case-by-case situation, but what makes some ok and some not?

I would assume doing something that benefits you but harms someone else - bad
Benefit the other and not you - good
Benefit both - good
Harm both - bad

but is it that simple? Do we factor in the personalities of those who are being manipulated? Does it change the morality if the person being manipulated doesnt really have a problem with it or chooses not to change it? If the person being manipulated looks up to you and wants to be on your good side - is he benefitting by being used? If they're just too dumb to realize that they're being used - should we treat it as "survival of the fittest" or "help those who can't help themselves?"

I just think spiritually, there are conflicting views that overlap when discussing morality, I'm simply looking for what people think is right/wrong/helpful/hurtful and what encourages/blocks the spiritual process/enlightenment.


I personally believe that to be enlightened, one must revert back to a "natural" unrepressed state (back away from social teachings) and from there (or while reverting) changing aspects of the self to promote a holistic and complete human. Full in every way, good and evil. Would manipulation fit into that picture?


--------------------
Just because I am arrogant does not mean I forget my place. It is how I choose to talk. I am not a monk. I am my own path, and I am without influence. Talk to me about my core being before you question my mental stability or life-choices. Chances are, they're only shocking to you because they don't fit your idea of what is.




Check out my Art Journal for some stuff I do http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21647069


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Offlineglimpee
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Re: The Morality of Manipulation? [Re: glimpee]
    #21888120 - 07/02/15 02:12 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I just thought of an interesting connection

To be enlightened, full, complete, one must have mastery over every aspect of their body. Including their imagination and perceptions.

Assuming we all stem from the universal consciousness, and we are all "one" wouldn't manipulation really just be a mastery of the self - except extended? If you are me and I am you, and we are both one with the universe, is manipulating you really manipulating a different being or is it just having a mastery over a different aspect of the self that is recognized as a DIFFERENT self by society and it's teachings?

I think spiritual and political definitions and standards are overlapping for me in this question - which is why it's so hard for me to stick with an answer.



by the way - no I'm not here to reaffirm my answers haha, I'm here because I am genuinely stumped and seek alternate perspectives :smile:


--------------------
Just because I am arrogant does not mean I forget my place. It is how I choose to talk. I am not a monk. I am my own path, and I am without influence. Talk to me about my core being before you question my mental stability or life-choices. Chances are, they're only shocking to you because they don't fit your idea of what is.




Check out my Art Journal for some stuff I do http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21647069


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Offlinedeff
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Re: The Morality of Manipulation? [Re: glimpee]
    #21888617 - 07/02/15 03:37 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

would you want to live in a world where everyone manipulated each other all the time? or would you prefer to live in a world where every treated each other with love and respect? :smile: then, it's simply a matter of 'being the change you want to see in the world', as Gandhi said :smile:


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OfflinePope
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Re: The Morality of Manipulation? [Re: glimpee]
    #21888623 - 07/02/15 03:38 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

idk, it's usually not right. sometimes people can tell someone's trying to manipulate them, i've had people do it to me and i usually play along. i think it's funny when someone thinks they're clever or on top of things but you've got the strings they need in your hands, kinda like allowing them to play. a 'they were dumb and let it happen' is pretty bad i think, you can't let something happen if you're too dumb to understand it, that's taking advantage of people and i think it's worse than if they fully knew what was up. your post kinda makes it sound like you're one of those creepy 20 somethings still hanging around with teenagers or newly adult types desperate to be accepted somewhere by someone. expanding on the first part though you might wanna be careful, i've intentionally ruined peoples reputations by observing that they're a manipulative type and feeding/encouraging it to an extreme, it can come back and bite you easy. idk though overall


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OfflinePope
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Re: The Morality of Manipulation? [Re: glimpee]
    #21888651 - 07/02/15 03:44 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

glimpee said:
To be enlightened, full, complete, one must have mastery over every aspect of their body. Including their imagination and perceptions.

Assuming we all stem from the universal consciousness, and we are all "one" wouldn't manipulation really just be a mastery of the self - except extended? If you are me and I am you, and we are both one with the universe, is manipulating you really manipulating a different being or is it just having a mastery over a different aspect of the self that is recognized as a DIFFERENT self by society and it's teachings?





on this i don't think mastery means enlightened, mastery implies a 'local' master & i think enlightenment is realizing in a core worldview changing way that there is no master, no controller or whatnot, it all just happens on its own. & everything i think is all one but using it to justify manipulation i think is taking it a bit too far, and is denying the concept of one-ness. again just cause there's no true local master or anything, the idea of manipulating things requires the illusion of division and going with it shows there's no true core knowledge of one-ness, just the fun idea of it.


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Invisiblemeowshroom
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Re: The Morality of Manipulation? [Re: glimpee]
    #21888730 - 07/02/15 04:01 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I should have just posted the video...

Did you watch it?


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Offlineglimpee
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Re: The Morality of Manipulation? [Re: meowshroom]
    #21889975 - 07/02/15 08:42 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Deff - I think thats a good way to look at things and it's something close to what I'm going to end up going by. I just wonder if actions like manipulation or "grey area" actions have influence to "awakening" or what have you.

Pope - Respectable answer haha, I don't really "manipulate" unless I'm cornered anymore - I left it behind with highschool as I did with hardcore blazing. I agree - taking advantage of people who are ignorant to the situation to some extent is always bad, I was just tryna hit different angles and possible arguments. I also agree about the differentiation between master vs enlightened - I wasn't really convinced with my own post about that stuff it was a messy scramble

meowshroom - Yeah, i watched it. Hopefully I can remember enough to say something valid about it. I think freedom is condeming - in a sense, but we (as a species) built social traps, structures, blueprints, etc. for humans and to shape humans. In a completely "free" enviroment - I assume there would be much more variety in person and personality. But thats just freedom trapping us, in a sense.

I'm also asking this question from religious/spiritual angles, but the no-god/spirituality view is equally valid, I just forget to incorporate it now sometimes :smile: I'll keep the view and ideas in consideration as I think about this


--------------------
Just because I am arrogant does not mean I forget my place. It is how I choose to talk. I am not a monk. I am my own path, and I am without influence. Talk to me about my core being before you question my mental stability or life-choices. Chances are, they're only shocking to you because they don't fit your idea of what is.




Check out my Art Journal for some stuff I do http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21647069


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Invisiblemeowshroom
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Re: The Morality of Manipulation? [Re: glimpee]
    #21890222 - 07/02/15 09:37 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Even though it's a short video, it's very complex...  you could be missing some parts


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Offlineglimpee
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Re: The Morality of Manipulation? [Re: meowshroom]
    #21890955 - 07/03/15 12:38 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

meowshroom said:
Even though it's a short video, it's very complex...  you could be missing some parts




The concepts in the video aren't foreign to me - I've heard/thought of basically everything I heard in the video, but I'll watch it tomorrow just in case


--------------------
Just because I am arrogant does not mean I forget my place. It is how I choose to talk. I am not a monk. I am my own path, and I am without influence. Talk to me about my core being before you question my mental stability or life-choices. Chances are, they're only shocking to you because they don't fit your idea of what is.




Check out my Art Journal for some stuff I do http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21647069


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