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Offlines240779
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Re: Mushrooms are Safer than Water [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #21883019 - 07/01/15 02:01 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Changing the topic, a bit, I don't believe it's correct to denote psilocin as the representative chemical of mushrooms, as I've seen you do multiple times, E.B. All the scientific literature I've even seen represents psilocybin as the main chemical in mushrooms. I've caught wind of studies done using psilocybin and indeed it is psilocybin that is used in the studies. This would appear to be because A) psilocybin is the final product of biosynthesis of the mushrooms and B) psilocin is unusually unstable, thusly it's not really in line with any other psychoactives as it will just be gone after a while unless kept in special conditions.




Agurrel, S. and J.L.G. Nilsson. 1968. Biosynthesis of Psilocybin: Part II. Incorporation of Labelled Tryptamine Derivatives. Acta Chemica Scandinavica 22(4): 1210–1218. DOWNLOAD See page 1217.


Stability info:

The methanolic extracts could be stored in a freezer at -5C for over 1 year with little change, although storage at room temperature led to complete loss of psilocin and some loss of psilocybin within a few months.

Beug, M. W. & Bigwood, J. 1981. Quantitative Analysis of Psilocybin and Psilocin in Psilicybe Baeocystis (Singer and Smith) by High-Performance Liquid Chromatography and by Thin-Layer Chromatography. Journal of Chromatography, Vol. 207, No. 3, pp. 379-385 DOWNLOAD  Cf. 'Results'


Edited by s240779 (07/01/15 02:42 PM)


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Offlinevoodoochild1000
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Re: Mushrooms are Safer than Water [Re: s240779]
    #21883598 - 07/01/15 04:12 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Da2ra said:
Changing the topic, a bit, I don't believe it's correct to denote psilocin as the representative chemical of mushrooms, as I've seen you do multiple times, E.B. All the scientific literature I've even seen represents psilocybin as the main chemical in mushrooms. I've caught wind of studies done using psilocybin and indeed it is psilocybin that is used in the studies. This would appear to be because A) psilocybin is the final product of biosynthesis of the mushrooms and B) psilocin is unusually unstable, thusly it's not really in line with any other psychoactives as it will just be gone after a while unless kept in special conditions.




Agurrel, S. and J.L.G. Nilsson. 1968. Biosynthesis of Psilocybin: Part II. Incorporation of Labelled Tryptamine Derivatives. Acta Chemica Scandinavica 22(4): 1210–1218. DOWNLOAD See page 1217.


Stability info:

The methanolic extracts could be stored in a freezer at -5C for over 1 year with little change, although storage at room temperature led to complete loss of psilocin and some loss of psilocybin within a few months.

Beug, M. W. & Bigwood, J. 1981. Quantitative Analysis of Psilocybin and Psilocin in Psilicybe Baeocystis (Singer and Smith) by High-Performance Liquid Chromatography and by Thin-Layer Chromatography. Journal of Chromatography, Vol. 207, No. 3, pp. 379-385 DOWNLOAD  Cf. 'Results'




.....DA2RA!.....BOOM :bigyesnod:[


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OnlineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Mushrooms are Safer than Water [Re: s240779]
    #21883812 - 07/01/15 05:04 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Da2ra said:
Quote:

Achillita said:
If you weigh 70 kilograms(which is about 150 pounds), The LD50 dose for drinking water would be 6,300 mg, A little over 6 liters of water.




So 6 grams of water is 6 liters of water? :rolleyes:




"For water, the oral LD50 is greater than 90 mL/kg. In this particular case, it means that they failed to reach a dose of water that killed half their rats, and are calculating based on the highest dose that they were able to give to rats. That means, that if you give a rat 90 mL of water/kg of rat into their stomach, less than 50% of them will die. If you translate this into a human (where the numbers won't be exactly the same, but will be fairly similar), you can give a little over 6L of water to a 150 lb human before 50% of them will die (6 L is about 1.5 gallons). Or around 13.5 lbs of water. That's a lot of water."

From this credible source here: http://conspiracyfactory.blogspot.com/2007/05/everything-is-toxic.html

EDIT: Ooops! Wrong interpretation of Da2ra the Explorer :wink:.


--------------------
"What you must understand is that your physical dimension affects everyone in the higher dimensions as well. All things are interconnected. All things are One. Therefore, if one dimension is broken or out of balance, then all other dimensions will experience repercussions." - Pleiadian Prophecy 2020 The New Golden Age by James Carwin

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Edited by LogicaL Chaos (07/01/15 05:07 PM)


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Offlineenjoi-more
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Re: Mushrooms are Safer than Water [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #21883931 - 07/01/15 05:29 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Eh, kind of a dumb claim in my opinion. Plus you have to remember mushrooms dont ONLY contain psilocybin, I'm sure a excess of some of the other 1000's (Correct me if its less) of chemicals could have more adverse side effects than simple water.

Tremors and more active tendon reflexes along with the mental and/or feelings of coldness/hotness certainly make water more desirable than a hefty dose of shrooms and by my book that makes water safer.

You do have a point on the fact water overdoes is much more likely than mushrooms overdose(impossible) but lets not boast information that they are safer than the most essential thing to life.... c'mon


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Offlinebluegill
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Re: Mushrooms are Safer than Water [Re: enjoi-more]
    #21885646 - 07/01/15 11:23 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

This thread is pretty cool. The OP suggests that we live in a dangerous universe where most things would and could kill us outside of a very specific set of circumstances. I really appreciate that life is so fragile and it makes me realize how often people take it for granted by placing themselves outside of those circumstances.

Shrooms give us a chance to really appreciate life and reach spiritual growth. Because they are powerful I consider them to be sacred and even though they are relatively non-toxic, they can be really dangerous when misused. Just remember that without water, you are without shrooms. Everything's connected man.


--------------------
"Psychedelics are like carnival tickets, you buy the ticket and take the ride, then you get off and go home. What your talking about is physical death. That's when you're pulled into the carnival against your will and your stuck there for eternity."


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Offlinealteredmindstates
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Re: Mushrooms are Safer than Water [Re: enjoi-more]
    #21885669 - 07/01/15 11:31 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I feel like there are two kinds of "safe" being discussed here.

In most arguments, it's best to leave out outlier situations, as the end result of the discussion is meant to be a general statement, so my attempt at this discussion will be under the assumption that we are talking about normal recreational use of mushrooms (ie; 19 year old kid eating shrooms with his friends in lower doses, and higher doses alone in his bed on a regular to semi-regular basis.)

ANYWAY, In one camp, you're arguing that mushrooms are "safer" than water because chemically they will not be able to kill you eaten as mushrooms themselves before other non-specific causes of death are far more likely (stomach bursting). In this sense, yeah, psilocybin mushrooms are safer than water. Simply put, you can't die from the action of mushrooms and mushrooms alone by eating them, while you can from drinking enough water.

In the other camp, you're stating that you need to take into account that because of the state mushrooms put you in, you are far more vulnerable to mental harm (PTSD, anxiety, delusions, paranoia, lasting drug-related psychosis, HPPD) than anything water could do to you. In this sense, mushrooms can be considered exceptionally more dangerous than water.

Everyone's right here. Mushrooms are safer and also more dangerous than water. In my opinion though, the argument shouldn't be about whether one substance is more dangerous than another, it should be about the free man's right to ingest whatever it is they damn well please. I've personally never SEEN mushrooms cause a violent incident, psychosis, seizures, sexual assault, social disruptions, depression, or lead to suicidal behavior, and I cannot say the same about heavy use of alcohol.

So the real question is; why are psychedelics banned from use and possesion and demonized while alcohol has commercials on television?


--------------------
i'm quiet


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OfflineIhateyou
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Re: Mushrooms are Safer than Water [Re: alteredmindstates]
    #21885711 - 07/01/15 11:42 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Remember to consume at least 64 ounces a day :lol:


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InvisibleToadstool5
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Re: Mushrooms are Safer than Water [Re: Ihateyou]
    #21885936 - 07/02/15 12:47 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Remember to consume at least 64 ounces a day :lol:




:rofl:


--------------------
If you do not know where the mushroom products you are consuming are grown, think twice before eating them. :badshroom:
- Paul Stamets

AMU Teks :mushroom2: Stro's Write Ups


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OfflineLincolnCityTripper
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Re: Mushrooms are Safer than Water [Re: nicechrisman]
    #21886324 - 07/02/15 04:34 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

nicechrisman said:
Quote:

LincolnCityTripper said:
Quote:

nicechrisman said:
I've never heard of anyone taking their life because they freaked out from taking water.



I have
Quote:

nicechrisman said:
So you're telling me OP that you would be more comfortable giving your grandmother a fat dose of mushrooms than a glass of water? Did you know that you will die if you don't drink water? Has anyone ever died from NOT eating mushrooms?



This is not the point man you can die from drinking to much water, it is damn near physically impossible to eat that many mushrooms to die period plain and simple. Not every one eats mushrooms but most people drink water and there have been many casualties.  Not the same can be said about mushrooms from over consumption.



100% of people who drink water die. 100% of people who take mushrooms die.



:facepalm:


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OfflineLincolnCityTripper
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Re: Mushrooms are Safer than Water [Re: nicechrisman]
    #21886332 - 07/02/15 04:39 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

nicechrisman said:
Quote:

LincolnCityTripper said:
Quote:

nicechrisman said:
I've never heard of anyone taking their life because they freaked out from taking water.



I have
Quote:

nicechrisman said:
So you're telling me OP that you would be more comfortable giving your grandmother a fat dose of mushrooms than a glass of water? Did you know that you will die if you don't drink water? Has anyone ever died from NOT eating mushrooms?



This is not the point man you can die from drinking to much water, it is damn near physically impossible to eat that many mushrooms to die period plain and simple. Not every one eats mushrooms but most people drink water and there have been many casualties.  Not the same can be said about mushrooms from over consumption.



100% of people who drink water die. 100% of people who take mushrooms die.



This statement makes sense if you have down syndrome.


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OfflineLincolnCityTripper
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Re: Mushrooms are Safer than Water [Re: LincolnCityTripper]
    #21886339 - 07/02/15 04:42 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Oh I forgot you have been on the shroomery for 12 years, fuck me :facepalm:


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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: Mushrooms are Safer than Water [Re: s240779]
    #21886446 - 07/02/15 05:36 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Da2ra said:
Changing the topic, a bit, I don't believe it's correct to denote psilocin as the representative chemical of mushrooms, as I've seen you do multiple times, E.B. All the scientific literature I've even seen represents psilocybin as the main chemical in mushrooms. I've caught wind of studies done using psilocybin and indeed it is psilocybin that is used in the studies. This would appear to be because A) psilocybin is the final product of biosynthesis of the mushrooms and B) psilocin is unusually unstable, thusly it's not really in line with any other psychoactives as it will just be gone after a while unless kept in special conditions.




Agurrel, S. and J.L.G. Nilsson. 1968. Biosynthesis of Psilocybin: Part II. Incorporation of Labelled Tryptamine Derivatives. Acta Chemica Scandinavica 22(4): 1210–1218. DOWNLOAD See page 1217.


Stability info:

The methanolic extracts could be stored in a freezer at -5C for over 1 year with little change, although storage at room temperature led to complete loss of psilocin and some loss of psilocybin within a few months.

Beug, M. W. & Bigwood, J. 1981. Quantitative Analysis of Psilocybin and Psilocin in Psilicybe Baeocystis (Singer and Smith) by High-Performance Liquid Chromatography and by Thin-Layer Chromatography. Journal of Chromatography, Vol. 207, No. 3, pp. 379-385 DOWNLOAD  Cf. 'Results'




That picture you loaded skipped a steps in the biosynthetic pathway for DMT...


First via AADC (amino acid decarboxylsde) tryptophan is decarboxylated to tryptamine, then the tryptamine via INMT (indole-amine-methyl-transferase) and SAM (s-adenosyl-meyhionine) which is converted to SAH (s-adensoyl-homocystine) is converted to N-methyl-tryptamine (NMT) then via the same process (INMT/SAM TO SAH) the NMT is converted to N,N-dimethyltryptamine.

As for psilocybin, are you making reference to the fact the psilocybin is NOT active, its a pro-drug, meaning its metabolized into the active compound (psilocin)...

Or that 4-po-NMT and 4-ho-NMT exist alongside side psiloc(yb)in?

Im not sure I understood what you were trying to say...

-E. Borodin


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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: Mushrooms are Safer than Water [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #21886448 - 07/02/15 05:37 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Am I missing most of the picture you posted? Is it suposed to enlarge when you click on it?

-E. Borodin


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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: Mushrooms are Safer than Water [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #21886453 - 07/02/15 05:42 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I use psilocin as the representive chemical because it is the active compound, psilocybin is inactive (pro-drug) so ill use "psilocin" more often when speaking about these mushrooms...

But I'm on a tablet, and may be missing a good chunck of your post. (I'm not sure I understood what you were pointing out with the biosynthetic pathway of psilocin...)

-E. Borodin


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Offlines240779
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Re: Mushrooms are Safer than Water [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #21887677 - 07/02/15 12:13 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

When you look at the fact that psilocin is just a stage in the biosynthesis of the final product of psilocybin and when you look at the fact that psilocin decomposes quickly when outside of a freezer, it just seems improper to represent psilocin as the chemical essence of mushrooms. And someone in the Chemistry forum pointed out that that biosynthesis info I posted is outdated (his post is copied below), however psilocin still precedes psilocybin in the mushroom biosynthesis of psilocybin going by the updated information he provided.

And for those wondering if there's a synergy in the combination of psilocybin and psilocin, read Albert Hofmann's account of his giving curandera, Maria Sabina psilocybin pills: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/20234319

As we took leave of MarΓ­a Sabina and her clan at the crack of dawn, the curandera said that the pills had the same power as the mushrooms, that there was no difference.


By the way, see if viewing the image in isolation gives you the option to resize it. And see if the bottom of the post contains a scroll bar...

Quote:

WillSolvem said:
N,N-Dimethyltryptamine has never been found in any mushroom anywhere, once N,N-Dimethyltryptamine-hydrogen-oxalate was found but only in trace amounts.

The synthesis pathway found in psiloc(yb)in containing mushrooms is as follows:

L Tryptophan


Decorboxylation of L Tryptophan produces Tryptamine

Tryptamine


Oxidation on the 4th position of tryptamine produces 4-hydroxytryptamine

4-hydroxytryptamine


Enzymatic methylation of 4-hydroxytryptamine produces 4-hydroxy-N-methyltryptamine (4-hydroxy NMT)

4-hydroxy-N-methyltryptamine


A second enzymatic methylation of the now 4-hydroxy-N-methyltryptamine produces 4-hydroxy-dimethyltryptamine (4-HO-N,N,DMT) commonly known as psilocin

4-hydroxy-dimethyltryptamine (psilocin)


Enzymatic phosphorylation of psilocin produces a phosphate ester of 4-hydroxy-dimethyltryptamine commonly called psilocybin

4-hydroxy-dimethyltryptamine phosphate ester (psilocybin)


This biosynthesis shows why every psilocybin mushrooms will contain 4-hydroxytryptamine, 4-hydroxy-N-methyltryptamine, and (nor)baeocystin but never any N,N-Dimethyltryptamine without a hydroxyl attached.




Source: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21454460#21454460


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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: Mushrooms are Safer than Water [Re: s240779]
    #21888002 - 07/02/15 01:45 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, I suppose that makes sense, its definantly accurate.

strangely enough 4-phosphorloxy-N-methyl-tryptamine exists in psilocybe fungi as well. its known as baeocystin. Why the fungi would apply the phosphorloxy end point to 4-ho-nmt is bizzare...

I only consider psilocin the essence of the mushroom because psilocybin is not active its a pro-drug, meaning  it must he metabolized in vivo into the active compound, which is psilocin, so sense psilocybin has no psychological effects, I consider psilocin to be the true essence of the mushroom.

Psilocybe fungi will 4-hydroxylate and 4-phosphoralate any tryptamine which they are presented, jochen gartz described inocculating the psilocybe mycelliums substrate with n-methyl-n-ethyl-trptamine (MET) and observing the compound 4-hydroxy-n-methyl-n-ethyl-tryptamine being produced by the fruited cataphores. As well as 4-po-MET...he did this with several tryptamine compounds, most of which were incredibly difficult to produce in the lab. I love researching the biisynthetic pathways of tryptamine compounds, weather its humans converting tryptophsn into serotonin which in converted to meletonin /n the pineal body, the pineal body also produces pinoline, which is 6-methoxy-tetrahydro-beta-carboline, a compound very similar to the harmala alkaloids in ayahuasca brews, DMT is endogenously produced, though it has not been confirmed where the DMT is being produced. These mushrooms  are producing compounds that mimic our higher neurotransmitters, /n similar manor as well...so its always fascinated me...

Ive always found it bizzare that the fungi seems to Intentionally protect its active compound by taking the extra effort to convert the active psilocin into its more stable pro-drug.
Psilocin is fairly unstable in its pure form, however while inside the cataphore it remains fairly protected from degradation. Psilocybin is for sure the more stable compound, its as if the mushroom wanted to ensure that the compounds they were producing would remain stable long enough for a mammal to consume them, these compounds are not tertiary, they are nit waste.  products and they are not poisons, these mushrooms put the majority of their metabolic energy into producing psilocybin (and every step in between tryptophan to psilocybin)


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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: Mushrooms are Safer than Water [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #21888011 - 07/02/15 01:47 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

A good deal of the post got messed up, chuncks were deleted, typos, etc...

Ill try to respond when I'm not in a moving car on a tablet....

-E. Borodin


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OfflineAchillita
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Re: Mushrooms are Safer than Water [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #21888068 - 07/02/15 01:59 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Okay sorry I haven't been on this post, I've been quite busy recently.

Yeah some of the info was wrong because I mis labeled, and then that caused myself to miscalculate. The point of the post was never for water being safer than psilocybin, but the active mushrooms.

I quite enjoyed reading many of your responses. Also, I know that water is very safe, You need water to live! But I was pointing out that physically, it is impossible to consume enough mushrooms to die from.

Mentally however, is a whole other story. Super high doses of mushrooms can cause a scarring mental reaction, but you're not going to die directly from mushrooms.

And I didn't even mention the that people drown in water all the time :lol:

But know your dose, and you should be fine consuming mushrooms. But even if you munched down until you were full, you wouldn't be able to OD.


--------------------


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Offlinepineapple3

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Re: Mushrooms are Safer than Water [Re: Achillita]
    #21888361 - 07/02/15 03:08 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

mate, what about cannabis / paracetamol ?

taking more than 4 paracetamol at once damages the liver, taking at least I would say 6,7,8 or more at once and you have liver failure.... yet this shit is the common pain killer? what the fuck , are we living in post medieval times?



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Offlinepineapple3

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Re: Mushrooms are Safer than Water [Re: Achillita]
    #21888365 - 07/02/15 03:09 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)



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