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InvisibleSirShroomsAlott
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Registered: 05/15/14
Posts: 6,945
Loc: United States Flag
Re: I'm starting to like Supreme Courts very much [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21879062 - 06/30/15 04:53 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Please forgive my stupidity in advance since I'm only asking since I really don't know the answer.

Isn't marriage in America basically a religious institution? And if so wouldn't if be a violation of the separation of church and state for government to get involved with it? Again sorry for my stupidity.


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OfflineAcaterpillar
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Re: I'm starting to like Supreme Courts very much [Re: SirShroomsAlott]
    #21879073 - 06/30/15 04:56 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

No. Marriage is a secular institution.
The government has been backing it for a long time.

Christians just have a hard time perceiving the world outside of their limited view.


--------------------
Aaa...E I O Uuu...A E I O Uuu..A E I O uh Uuu..
*Cough* *Cough*
Ooo...U E I O Aaa...U E I Aaa..A E I O Uuuuu...

At first sight, The Perfection of Wisdom is bewildering, full of paradox and apparent irrationality.


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InvisibleSirShroomsAlott
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I'm a teapot


Registered: 05/15/14
Posts: 6,945
Loc: United States Flag
Re: I'm starting to like Supreme Courts very much [Re: Acaterpillar]
    #21879082 - 06/30/15 04:58 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Oh okay thank you, I only thought that because (at least if you're married in a church) you are doing it with god as your witness or whatever that is, but knew it was a stupid question since not everyone gets married in churches lol.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: I'm starting to like Supreme Courts very much [Re: SirShroomsAlott]
    #21879083 - 06/30/15 04:58 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

No.  Marriage in the US is a completely secular contract with default values and tax repercussions.  There is no stricture against atheists marrying and never has been.  The religious part is just ceremony.  Getting the license is the legal part.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: I'm starting to like Supreme Courts very much [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21879090 - 06/30/15 05:00 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Since marriage is not mentioned in the Constitution at all and all rights not specifically enumerated are granted to the states what would prevent a state from not granting any marriage licenses at all and then having the residents sue the federal government for unequal taxation? 

I am going to say this again.  I have no problem with same sex marriage.  I have a huge problem with the reasoning and jurisdictional issues here.




The reasoning and jurisdictional issues are covered quite nicely by the equal protection clause whether you think so or not.

It doesn't matter one way or the other if the word marriage appears in the Constitution. If government grants the right to marry to straights, the equal protection clause says it applies to gays. It's just that simple.

Civil unions for all or marriage for all. There's no in between nor should there be.

The court made the right decision, Roberts the wrong one.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleSirShroomsAlott
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Registered: 05/15/14
Posts: 6,945
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Re: I'm starting to like Supreme Courts very much [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21879097 - 06/30/15 05:01 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah I figured there was a reason it wasn't, I just remembered my mom or someone telling me a long time ago that if you never did communion or something like that , that they consider you to be living in sin or something so you weren't allowed to get married in a church and most people do get married in churches which made me think it was religious. I wasn't raised with a religion so it's all kind of confusing to me how it meshes with society sometimes.


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: I'm starting to like Supreme Courts very much [Re: Acaterpillar]
    #21879104 - 06/30/15 05:02 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

The thing is, once the Supreme votes in favor of the guy (asking for gay marriage for example) and therefore makes him win his case, the decision the Supreme Court has taken becomes applicable to all in order to prevent other similar law suit. Normal courts are case by case. But Supreme Court decisions that challenges a current law automatically repeals that law for everybody. You need a solid lawyer with one hell of a case but if he can prove that a law goes against unilateral civil liberties, then the judges has no choice but level the playing field the same way for everybody.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: I'm starting to like Supreme Courts very much [Re: Patlal]
    #21879156 - 06/30/15 05:15 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Patlal thinks this is the end but none of you are answering my question.  If a state decided to stop issuing marriage licenses entirely could it's residents prevail against the federal government in an unequal taxation case?  The other question was already posed.  Does NY have to accept a Texas gun license? 

This is really bad.  Not for it's limited impact but because of what it portends,  There is not one word about marriage in the Constitution and there was a simple legislative remedy that did not require these assholes to weigh in at all.  This is a usurpation of the power of the people by 5 unelected elitists.  Think about what that means, children.  This might well be the slipperiest slope they have gone down since their idiot interpretation of the Commerce Clause


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Onlinekoods
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Re: I'm starting to like Supreme Courts very much [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21879279 - 06/30/15 05:39 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

koods said:
No, they are demonstrably not. According to the Supreme Court, states may not ban gay marriage or abortions. Your opinion doesn't matter.



Please point out the word marriage in the Constitution.




I'll point you to the ninth amendment, which specifies there are rights not specified in the constitution

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

You should give this a read
:cookiemonster:




All rights not specifically granted to the federal government belong to the states.  Now will you please find the phrase in the Constitution that includes the word marriage.  I have no problem with same sex marriage, by the way.  It doesn't even nudge my Give a Shit Meter.  I just don't like how it got here.  Really, the people and the politicians were already well on their way.  Hell,  even Obama had evolved on the issue.  There was no reason at all for the SCOTUS to get involved.  There is no Constitutional issue and there are simple legislative cures.

I read something the other day about the ramifications of the reasoning here.  Does this mean that NY will have to accept Texas gun laws?




The constitution doesn't grant rights to the federal government. It grants rights to the people.

The ninth amendment says that just because the authors didn't specifically name a right in this document, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. That's meaning of the words "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. "


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: I'm starting to like Supreme Courts very much [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21879335 - 06/30/15 05:52 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Patlal thinks this is the end but none of you are answering my question.  If a state decided to stop issuing marriage licenses entirely could it's residents prevail against the federal government in an unequal taxation case?  The other question was already posed.  Does NY have to accept a Texas gun license? 

This is really bad.  Not for it's limited impact but because of what it portends,  There is not one word about marriage in the Constitution and there was a simple legislative remedy that did not require these assholes to weigh in at all.  This is a usurpation of the power of the people by 5 unelected elitists.  Think about what that means, children.  This might well be the slipperiest slope they have gone down since their idiot interpretation of the Commerce Clause




You keep mentioning that the word 'marriage' doesn't appear in the constitution. It doesn't fucking matter.

The equal protection clause is clear and unambiguous.


Quote:

If a state decided to stop issuing marriage licenses entirely could it's residents prevail against the federal government in an unequal taxation case?




Hopefully. Being married or not should have zero to do with your taxes.


Quote:

Think about what that means, children.




In this particular case, it means 5 of the 9 can read a good deal better than you.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: I'm starting to like Supreme Courts very much [Re: koods]
    #21879344 - 06/30/15 05:55 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

Quote:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people




Answer my questions.  This is a very slippery slope.  If a state chooses not to issue marriage licenses at all can its citizens sue over disparate tax consequences?  Does NY have to accept Texas gun permits?  You are not thinking this through.  And when will they have to sanction multiple marriages and what will that do to the tax code?

The government should not be in the marriage business at all.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: I'm starting to like Supreme Courts very much [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21879358 - 06/30/15 05:58 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The government should not be in the marriage business at all.




That's true, but as long as they are... equal protection clause wins.

Rightfully so.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: I'm starting to like Supreme Courts very much [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21879377 - 06/30/15 06:03 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Where does that end?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: I'm starting to like Supreme Courts very much [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21879419 - 06/30/15 06:12 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Where does that end?




Hopefully with all laws and regulations being applied equally to all citizens. Which is as it should be, though it likely never will be.

Granting things to 'your' chosen group while denying it to groups 'you' disapprove of, should never have happened. It's to our lawmakers shame that it ever did.

Note that 'you' and 'your' does not apply specifically to you, but to all who were OK with the unequal application of the law.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: I'm starting to like Supreme Courts very much [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21879427 - 06/30/15 06:15 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Two words.  Tax code.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: I'm starting to like Supreme Courts very much [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21879434 - 06/30/15 06:18 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

What about it? That should apply equally to all as well. Each taxpayer gets hit with the same tax rate. No exceptions. No deductions. No tax credits.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinenicechrisman
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Re: I'm starting to like Supreme Courts very much [Re: Patlal]
    #21879440 - 06/30/15 06:20 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

That one crack smoking mayor of Toronto seemed pretty entertaining. What's he up to these days?


--------------------
"Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent:
it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not."

John C. Lily

 


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: I'm starting to like Supreme Courts very much [Re: psi]
    #21879443 - 06/30/15 06:20 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

psi said:
Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
Does Canada have a surpreme court?



Yes. Here they are on their way towards the igloo of deliberation,  carrying the traditional novelty sized shared beer mug. The cup on top 'miraculously' refills itself with beer from the keg hidden in the base.






:ilold:


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: I'm starting to like Supreme Courts very much [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21879464 - 06/30/15 06:24 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
What about it? That should apply equally to all as well. Each taxpayer gets hit with the same tax rate. No exceptions. No deductions. No tax credits.



This whole thing would be utterly irrelevant if there was no disparate treatment in the tax code and in entitlement issues.  Now when are the polygamists going to bring suit?  If I was one I sure as shit would drag this into the arena.  With a great giant grin on my face.  And the gun issue, as well.  This slope is made of ice.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: I'm starting to like Supreme Courts very much [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21879499 - 06/30/15 06:33 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

There's no slope at all if the laws apply equally to all.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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