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nuentoter
conduit



Registered: 09/17/08
Posts: 2,721
Last seen: 7 years, 21 days
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Sudly I wish could go back in time to tell people like Einstein, Copernicus, Magellan, Da Vinci,Socrates, and the list goes on........... that they are stupid people for contemplating outside of known science and for dreaming and imagining things and then pursuing those dreams and imaginings to help prove their fantasy. Because some of these amazing scientists and thinkers were regarded as insane and intangible people because of their unrealistic view points.
You my friend are amusing though because I feel like you just are oblivious to the idea that science is not much of a different dogma than any religion. Also ignorant to the idea that personal reality (your life and how you percieve the world) is different from the shared reality (which is the overlap of at least seemingly similar aspects of percieved personal realities) which is also totally different than my or anyone else's personal reality, are not truth they are not concrete evidence of anything they are perceptions, some are shared some aren't and there is obligation for any of it to ne true to everyone.
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The geometry of us is no chance. We are antennae, we are tuning forks, we are receiver and transmitters of all energy. We are more than we know. - @entheolove "I found I could say things with color and shapes that I couldn't say any other way - things I had no words for" - Georgia O'Keefe I think the word is vagina
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Universaleyeni
Friend



Registered: 04/18/13
Posts: 528
Loc: Fl
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
Quote:
Universaleyeni said: The thing about "reality" is that it's as highly subjective as a favorite ice cream flavor. Everyone's got one, and tomorrow it might change for you.
That is not what reality is. That is called perception and perspective. Perception is not reality no matter how much people want it to be.
Edited by Universaleyeni (07/05/15 12:14 PM)
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Universaleyeni
Friend



Registered: 04/18/13
Posts: 528
Loc: Fl
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
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Re: "I know because I know!" [Re: nuentoter]
#21900012 - 07/05/15 08:10 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
nuentoter said: Sudly I wish could go back in time to tell people like Einstein, Copernicus, Magellan, Da Vinci,Socrates, and the list goes on........... that they are stupid people for contemplating outside of known science and for dreaming and imagining things and then pursuing those dreams and imaginings to help prove their fantasy. Because some of these amazing scientists and thinkers were regarded as insane and intangible people because of their unrealistic view points.
You my friend are amusing though because I feel like you just are oblivious to the idea that science is not much of a different dogma than any religion. Also ignorant to the idea that personal reality (your life and how you percieve the world) is different from the shared reality (which is the overlap of at least seemingly similar aspects of percieved personal realities) which is also totally different than my or anyone else's personal reality, are not truth they are not concrete evidence of anything they are perceptions, some are shared some aren't and there is obligation for any of it to ne true to everyone.
Awesome points bro 
I think you replied to me by mistake again
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,805
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Re: "I know because I know!" [Re: nuentoter]
#21900013 - 07/05/15 08:10 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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The thing about people like Einstein is that he had evidence behind his claims. They were thought of as insane until they proved their claims.
We're not going to start believing peoples claims before evidence is produced.
Perception doesn't change reality. Just because a colour blind person perceives a red apple as blue doesn't mean the apple is blue.
A red apple is red because of the laws of nature of our reality. Perceiving it as blue does not change the laws of nature.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Universaleyeni
Friend



Registered: 04/18/13
Posts: 528
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Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
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Re: "I know because I know!" [Re: sudly]
#21900024 - 07/05/15 08:19 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: Perception doesn't change reality. Just because a colour blind person perceives a red apple as blue doesn't mean the apple is blue.
A red apple is perceived as red because of the laws of nature of our reality. Perceiving it as blue does not change the laws of nature.
But it alters the color blind persons's reality.
The color blind guy sees what he sees. Without the availabilty of the definition of "red", the diagnosis of colorblindness, or a non color blind guy to tell him hes wrong, he sees what he sees.
So our reality (personal or collective) is largely based on reference points for comparison. It isnt limited to those points. Impossible. In my humble unprovable opinion.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,805
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No, it alters the colourblind persons perception of reality.
A non colour blind person can tell him he's wrong because he is, it is a red apple because it reflects the red light and therefore appears red to us. I'd recommend doing a little research on why things are the colour they are.
I could perceive the moon as being made of cheese because it's kinda yellow, that doesn't mean it is.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Universaleyeni
Friend



Registered: 04/18/13
Posts: 528
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Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
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Re: "I know because I know!" [Re: sudly]
#21900048 - 07/05/15 08:31 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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youre right suds. But until you personally observe, or rely on available proven evidence, that moon could be filled with bavarian cream for all you know.
What is reality without perception?
Until you or someone observes and defines, what is there? Everything and nothing.
Predictability doesnt quite sum up nature/the universe.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,805
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Luckily I do rely on available, proven evidence that the moon is not made of cheese. Same goes for a red apple being red.
Reality is reality with or without perception.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Universaleyeni
Friend



Registered: 04/18/13
Posts: 528
Loc: Fl
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
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Re: "I know because I know!" [Re: sudly]
#21900194 - 07/05/15 09:22 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Imagine what other fun facts about the moon you'd be missing out on, if observers through the ages had drawn the line at the discovery that it wasnt made of cheese!
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,805
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The moon not being made of cheese is just one of many interesting facts about the moon.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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falcon



Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 8,005
Last seen: 20 hours, 27 minutes
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Re: "I know because I know!" [Re: sudly]
#21902273 - 07/05/15 06:47 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: Luckily I do rely on available, proven evidence that the moon is not made of cheese. Same goes for a red apple being red.
Reality is reality with or without perception.
That is an assumption, without an observer it can not be verified, oy.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,805
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Re: "I know because I know!" [Re: falcon] 1
#21902304 - 07/05/15 06:53 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Whether we do or do not know what is in reality, it will not change simply because we perceive it.
What I'm saying is that is doesn't matter how we perceive reality because it is what it is and it isn't going to change because of a humans perspective.
Only the individuals perspective of reality can change.
The laws of nature do not change based on perspective.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: "I know because I know!" [Re: sudly]
#21902345 - 07/05/15 07:03 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: Whether we do or do not know what is in reality, it will not change simply because we perceive it.
What I'm saying is that is doesn't matter how we perceive reality because it is what it is and it isn't going to change because of a humans perspective.
Only the individuals perspective of reality can change.
The laws of nature do not change based on perspective.
I have no comment on this ongoing debate in general, but this^^ is completely correct.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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falcon



Registered: 04/01/02
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Last seen: 20 hours, 27 minutes
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Re: "I know because I know!" [Re: sudly] 2
#21902384 - 07/05/15 07:12 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Ah but something has to observe, without an observer there is no knowledge. Without an observer, the unchanging nature of a material world is an assumption that can not be considered knowledge.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,805
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Re: "I know because I know!" [Re: falcon]
#21902475 - 07/05/15 07:38 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Without an observer there is no knowledge for the observer. The laws of nature and the material world haven't changed yet, to think they have is the real assumption.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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falcon



Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 8,005
Last seen: 20 hours, 27 minutes
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Re: "I know because I know!" [Re: sudly]
#21902508 - 07/05/15 07:47 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I don't assume that and I don't assume that they are constant without one.
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Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
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Wow, is that your love/hate relationship with cartesianism getting a little randy DQ?
Never thought I'd see you shoot for an "excluding all context" ontological argument of reality...
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: "I know because I know!" [Re: falcon]
#21902518 - 07/05/15 07:49 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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While it is true that observer and observed are one fundamentally interdependent unit -- what's so special about an observer, anyway?
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: Q [Re: Kurt]
#21902534 - 07/05/15 07:52 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kurt said: Wow, is that your love/hate relationship with cartesianism getting a little randy DQ?
Never thought I'd see you shoot for an "excluding all context" ontological argument of reality...
No Kurt, I just think he's basically on the mark and I'm trying to quell any suggestion that we create reality by observing it. It's a subtle subject, and I do not dismiss the notion entirely -- as there is some truth to it, under certain circumstances -- but it is most often a misunderstanding. Nature doesn't care about any of this.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
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Quote:
I just think he's basically on the mark and I'm trying to quell any suggestion that we create reality by observing it.
That's exactly what I mean by your love hate relationship with Descartes...
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