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bodhisatta 
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Re: Why is it so damned hard to get potent mushrooms [Re: Tomandjerry58]
#21878604 - 06/30/15 03:23 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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preschooler said:
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bodhisatta said:
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preschooler said:
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bodhisatta said: Indoles are indoles dude. There's not even isomers of those chemicals.
indoles are indoles dude? I don't get what your saying
This mushroom alone contains indole-3-acetic acid, two indole alkaloids, baeocystin and im sure many intermediates. Are you saying that all indoles are the same dude?
No that's not what I said at all. Lab made or shrooms made psilocin, baeocystin etc are all identical. Mushrooms don't make different psilocin than you can by jamming atoms together yourself. Take a chemistry course
I would enjoy the chemisty class.. Yea ive heard shulgin say the same thing but we are talking about fungi and plants that often mutate. So I have hard time believing it would be completely identical. Especially when different mushrooms effect the body and mind completely differently from one to the next.
Just like some marijuana zombifies you and some energizes you. Its all thc correct?
nope they're exactly the same exactly
different mushrooms don't effect you different, different trips effect you differently. eat the same exact shrooms on a different day you'll have a different trip.
psilocin is always C12H16N2O and since mushrooms get atoms from the same place scientists would get them from they're identical. the best lab in the world couldn't tell them apart.
just like all water on the planet is h2o no different form any other water
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Tomandjerry58
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Re: Why is it so damned hard to get potent mushrooms [Re: Mad Season]
#21878608 - 06/30/15 03:24 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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That kinda what im getting at, there are different compounds in plant/fungi material. And although there has been quite a lot of research done with marijuana isolating the different cannabinoids. Little has been done(published) with cultivated psychedelic mushroom.Imo its gone thru a "cultivar" change that substantially different from a decade ago. And like marijuana high yielding potent stains or variations have surfaced.
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Tomandjerry58
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Re: Why is it so damned hard to get potent mushrooms [Re: Tomandjerry58]
#21878654 - 06/30/15 03:32 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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"different mushrooms don't effect you different, different trips effect you differently. eat the same exact shrooms on a different day you'll have a different trip."
That exactly right if there are the same exact mushrooms....but as everyone says there not all the same.
"different mushrooms don't effect you different" That's an incorrect statement
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matsc
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Re: Why is it so damned hard to get potent mushrooms [Re: Tomandjerry58]
#21878666 - 06/30/15 03:35 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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The ratio of psilocin to psilocybin to baeocystin to (others) can cause some differential effects. They can interplay and compete for similar receptor pathways, leading to differences in effect and efficacy. Of course a persons brain chemistry also comes in to play, which makes any firm comparison shaky at best.
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Aero
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Re: Why is it so damned hard to get potent mushrooms [Re: matsc]
#21878671 - 06/30/15 03:36 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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matsc said: The ratio of psilocin to psilocybin to baeocystin to (others) can cause some differential effects. They can interplay and compete for similar receptor pathways, leading to differences in effect and efficacy. Of course a persons brain chemistry also comes in to play, which makes any firm comparison shaky at best.
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Mushroom_J
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Re: Why is it so damned hard to get potent mushrooms [Re: Aero]
#21878828 - 06/30/15 04:09 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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chemical structures are identical whether it's made by a plant or by a chemist.
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Why is it so damned hard to get potent mushrooms [Re: Aero]
#21878853 - 06/30/15 04:15 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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you change your trip more than the difference in any mushroom would.
yes those three chemicals can be in differing percentages but if you eat enough of them to get solid trip it's you your mind yourself that's all the difference.
ask anyone that's grown more than you've ever seen and ate more than you've ever seen before and they'll tell you this.
ask anyone under the age of 30, that calls them self a psychonaut exploring their consciousness and all that bullshit, goes to festivals relentlessly, and they'll tell you what preschooler is saying.
in each strain of weed there's more than a world of difference compared to even different species of psilocybin mushrooms.
there's hundreds of chemicals in weeds that interplay and act on slightly different receptors on in both your brain's neurons and peripheral neurons. even some of your other organs have receptors for canabanoids, which will mediate or modulate some intracellular processes.
much unlike the pharmacology of the 3 interesting indoles in psilocybes (which your friends who tell you the bullshit about can't pronounce either)
if you hear someone say sill oh sybe cube en iss don't listen to shit they have to say
it's sil ah so be cube en z's
if they say it like the first way(wrong) it's because they don't know shit about mushrooms other than what they can successfully regurgitate hopefully somewhat precisely but often times with telephone game error.
either way all that really matters with cubes is making them more potent. you can say you have really visual cubes, that just means they're really potent and perhaps have a nicer ratio of those three indoles than another strain. and when I say strain I mean genetic strain the resultant of two successful mated spores.
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matsc
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Re: Why is it so damned hard to get potent mushrooms [Re: Mushroom_J]
#21878876 - 06/30/15 04:19 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Mushroom_J said: chemical structures are identical whether it's made by a plant or by a chemist.
Technically.... not exactly. Natural sources tend to slightly enrich some isotopes over others as compared to lab syntheses. To my knowledge, these tiny differences have never been proven to actually affect a drugs effects though (Closest thing I can think of is heavy water and some of its odd toxicology)
You can and will get different sets of side products though. In lab synths it tends to be overcooked and stereoisomer products, in natural sources it tends to be over/under/mis oxidized and similar products. But that can vary GREATLY from organism to organism, pathway to pathway, even from one environment to another. Usually the side products have wildly different pharmacological effects, but are present in such minute quantities as to be unimportant.
(Sorry I spent the last 2 years in a natural products lab working on fungal metabolite biosynthesis pathways, and I tend to ramble on when it comes up)
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Why is it so damned hard to get potent mushrooms [Re: matsc]
#21878903 - 06/30/15 04:23 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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the amount of d2o is always constant in nature in a sample of h2o. unless a lab actually goes about making D2O or T2O then the isotope levels are stable in nature and in lab synth. you have to actually act on modulating the isotope levels to make the isotope levels different. simply making them in a lab won't ensure that they have a different chemical physical or sub atomic difference.
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Tomandjerry58
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Re: Why is it so damned hard to get potent mushrooms [Re: Mushroom_J]
#21878916 - 06/30/15 04:25 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think I get that^^ and how do you test whats in plant material?
A lot of shulgin's talks mocked the whole aspect of nutrients or possible added chemicals from changing the internal chemistry of mushrooms. But in all reality he was a chemist it and would never change upon his creation unless he cultivated it.
"Casale" in 1985 confirmed that you can heat dry mushrooms with a dilute acetic acid/water and turn the whole mix into a largely pure sample of psilocin. Now this right here would be a true test if a compound was similar to another.
But I could guarantee that two sample from two different variations would be widely different from one another.
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Inocuole
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Re: Why is it so damned hard to get potent mushrooms [Re: bodhisatta]
#21878919 - 06/30/15 04:25 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Comparing all the hundreds of cannabinoids in cannabis to the THREE active chemicals in mushrooms is ridiculous.
Actually there are only 2 actives. Psilocin and baeocystin. Psilocybin breaks down into psilocin before it hits your brain so that's ruled out as actually having much effect. Maybe a slower comeup, at best.
Baeocystin, I don't know that anyone actually knows what it does. I would venture to say it's pretty negligible.
Also what the fuuuuuck are you going on about bodhi with that pronunciation? I pronounce them "sill oh sibe cube en sis" (but sis is kinda... like you said with sounding like a "Zs") I hardly see how it matters how you pronounce a word you haven't ever heard said in person anyway. I passed English class if that's the question at hand. What's up with this... sill ah so be? Where does that "so" sound come from?
I've grown mushrooms for 8 years and I don't know for sure that I've ever heard anyone pronounce them like you're suggesting.
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Juiceh
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Re: Why is it so damned hard to get potent mushrooms [Re: Leviticus969]
#21878929 - 06/30/15 04:28 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
6Silent9Knight6 said:I can assure you it's not your medication.
This is absolutely incorrect. I know quite a few people who can't trip because of their meds.
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Inocuole
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Re: Why is it so damned hard to get potent mushrooms [Re: Juiceh]
#21878936 - 06/30/15 04:29 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Juiceh said:
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6Silent9Knight6 said:I can assure you it's not your medication.
This is absolutely incorrect. I know quite a few people who can't trip because of their meds.
Likewise, SSRIs have a very very diminishing effect on psychedelics.
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Tomandjerry58
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Re: Why is it so damned hard to get potent mushrooms [Re: matsc]
#21878999 - 06/30/15 04:43 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
matsc said:
Quote:
Mushroom_J said: chemical structures are identical whether it's made by a plant or by a chemist.
Technically.... not exactly. Natural sources tend to slightly enrich some isotopes over others as compared to lab syntheses. To my knowledge, these tiny differences have never been proven to actually affect a drugs effects though (Closest thing I can think of is heavy water and some of its odd toxicology)
You can and will get different sets of side products though. In lab synths it tends to be overcooked and stereoisomer products, in natural sources it tends to be over/under/mis oxidized and similar products. But that can vary GREATLY from organism to organism, pathway to pathway, even from one environment to another. Usually the side products have wildly different pharmacological effects, but are present in such minute quantities as to be unimportant.
(Sorry I spent the last 2 years in a natural products lab working on fungal metabolite biosynthesis pathways, and I tend to ramble on when it comes up)
Ramble away id love to hear it:)
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matsc
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Re: Why is it so damned hard to get potent mushrooms [Re: bodhisatta]
#21879041 - 06/30/15 04:50 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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bodhisatta said: the amount of d2o is always constant in nature in a sample of h2o. unless a lab actually goes about making D2O or T2O then the isotope levels are stable in nature and in lab synth. you have to actually act on modulating the isotope levels to make the isotope levels different. simply making them in a lab won't ensure that they have a different chemical physical or sub atomic difference.
What I meant was that the enzymes involved in the biosynthetic pathways in nature have a slight difference in affinity for some isotopes over others. Due to some of the quirks of chemical kinetics down at the quantum level, you might see a ppb difference in one isotope of say, nitrogen, compared to the same compound synthesized in a lab. Its tiny, but we see it occasionally.
http://sisbl.uga.edu/stable.html
Edited by matsc (06/30/15 04:51 PM)
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Why is it so damned hard to get potent mushrooms [Re: Inocuole]
#21879060 - 06/30/15 04:53 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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the comparison with weed is so to say that you can have different highs on weed but even still a weed high is a weed high you know it when you see it. there's subtle difference indica sativa dabs etc it's still all a weed high and you know it's a weed high it's not so different that it feels like you're doing a different drug. and that's the interplay of hundreds of chemicals and vastly different interactions and ratios.
where with cubes it's a relatively small amount of drug and drug variation. so when someone says cube y is hugely different of a trip than cube x it's because they haven't ate a shitload of cubes yet to know that every trip can be different at any given time even on the exact same isolate mushrooms.
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Inocuole
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Re: Why is it so damned hard to get potent mushrooms [Re: bodhisatta]
#21879071 - 06/30/15 04:56 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yeah I'm just gonna say it, if OP thinks there are such thing as bad cubes, THAT in itself is probably the culprit.
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Why is it so damned hard to get potent mushrooms [Re: matsc]
#21879076 - 06/30/15 04:56 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
matsc said:
Quote:
bodhisatta said: the amount of d2o is always constant in nature in a sample of h2o. unless a lab actually goes about making D2O or T2O then the isotope levels are stable in nature and in lab synth. you have to actually act on modulating the isotope levels to make the isotope levels different. simply making them in a lab won't ensure that they have a different chemical physical or sub atomic difference.
What I meant was that the enzymes involved in the biosynthetic pathways in nature have a slight difference in affinity for some isotopes over others. Due to some of the quirks of chemical kinetics down at the quantum level, you might see a ppb difference in one isotope of say, nitrogen, compared to the same compound synthesized in a lab. Its tiny, but we see it occasionally.
http://sisbl.uga.edu/stable.html
look up how to enrich uranium.
and as for the last part of that article about the C14 dating. I haven't seen that correction applied before ever so I question the validity of the article. I'll do more digging but I find the bioaccumulation of heavier isotopes being overblown in that article, I bet there's some review articles that shred it.
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matsc
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Re: Why is it so damned hard to get potent mushrooms [Re: matsc]
#21879117 - 06/30/15 05:06 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I actually know a couple methods for enriching uranium (gas centrifugation and mass spec), its a strange and terrifying process I want nothing to do with 
But I did find a couple articles on enzymatic isotopic preferences: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25121461 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC366402/ (the C3 vs C4 plant one in particular comes up a lot) http://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803100013377 (see?) www.jbc.org/content/263/26/13231.full.pdf
Its all little quirks of kinetics in the end. I hated this crap in biophysical chem because you had to account for all of this nonsense on exams, thank god for a grade curve.
(And sorry for derailing the thread with p-chem, everyones least favorite subject)
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Why is it so damned hard to get potent mushrooms [Re: matsc]
#21879170 - 06/30/15 05:18 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
matsc said: I actually know a couple methods for enriching uranium (gas centrifugation and mass spec), its a strange and terrifying process I want nothing to do with 
But I did find a couple articles on enzymatic isotopic preferences: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25121461 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC366402/ (the C3 vs C4 plant one in particular comes up a lot) http://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803100013377 (see?) www.jbc.org/content/263/26/13231.full.pdf
Its all little quirks of kinetics in the end. I hated this crap in biophysical chem because you had to account for all of this nonsense on exams, thank god for a grade curve.
(And sorry for derailing the thread with p-chem, everyones least favorite subject)
 interesting shit
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