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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,347
Last seen: 3 hours, 48 minutes
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Re: perhaps this will clear some misconceptions about Bernie Sanders a bit.... [Re: tripN]
#21884172 - 07/01/15 06:23 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
tripN said: Ok long list of misunderstandings
Terrable analogy: it was not analogy it was showing the difference in how socialism worked good verses how I think it will play out.
Nordic country's are smaller it won't work in big country's: those country's are smaller than or the same size as the county I live in. If it's somebody in new york I don't give a rats ass, if somebody in my town needs help I'll give them the shirt off my back. I care for my neighbors not for people I'll never meet.
I think your saying my analogy is sexist? Sorry but that's how the Indian tribes worked.
A livable wage is just that livable. If you want the other stuff get a better job, work your way up.
The new deal was bullshit. That's a fact. It's one step away from being a pyramid scheme. And by the day I would get SS checks it will be long gone!
And regan made more than his fair share of fuckups I'm no reganite drone.
In the end the government should be run as a business, and right now it's in debt and will never come out. Unless somebody starts treating it as a business.
Your arguments come off so self serving like it's all about the little guys, I got bad news it's up to them, you, me to find our own way. Don't lean on anybody, ask for what you haven't earned, the only time for that is your darkest hour. And then with how smart our government is they'll be late or not come at all. Hurricane Katrina, sandy ........
In a Socialist country hurricane Katrina would have played out much differently. We wouldn't have been focusing on rebuilding Iraq before rebuilding America. I wasn't saying you were being sexist, but I will say that women were a central part of Native American tribes. In fact, most tribes were matriarchal in nature. Women also played a role in growing and gathering food. Native American's didn't even have an economy in the conventional undertanding of the word. It's a poor analogy, sorry.
Socialists wantmto expand Social Security. The middle class was built on the New Deal, and it declined after Reagan. You may not be a 'Reaganite', but many folks around here are. Right now Liberal states pay for Right wing welfare states' tax subsidies. I propose we all take care of our neighborhood (the nation). In taking care of your neighbor, you show that you do care to take care of people in dark times. In a Socialist system it would be the same situation. Maybe you can't see that people in NY would be taking care of your neighbor too.
Nobody makes it anywhere in life without the participation of others in their endeavors. You act as if man is an island. He succeeds on his own. We are a society.
"Government should be run as a business" - make your case. I would argue that government is not a business, it serves an entirely different purpose than a business, and it shouldn't be run like a business. Are you a Trump supporter? Just curious.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
Edited by Bigbadwooof (07/01/15 06:26 PM)
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 5 hours, 59 minutes
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Re: perhaps this will clear some misconceptions about Bernie Sanders a bit.... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#21884275 - 07/01/15 06:40 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
tripN said: Ok long list of misunderstandings
Terrable analogy: it was not analogy it was showing the difference in how socialism worked good verses how I think it will play out.
Nordic country's are smaller it won't work in big country's: those country's are smaller than or the same size as the county I live in. If it's somebody in new york I don't give a rats ass, if somebody in my town needs help I'll give them the shirt off my back. I care for my neighbors not for people I'll never meet.
I think your saying my analogy is sexist? Sorry but that's how the Indian tribes worked.
A livable wage is just that livable. If you want the other stuff get a better job, work your way up.
The new deal was bullshit. That's a fact. It's one step away from being a pyramid scheme. And by the day I would get SS checks it will be long gone!
And regan made more than his fair share of fuckups I'm no reganite drone.
In the end the government should be run as a business, and right now it's in debt and will never come out. Unless somebody starts treating it as a business.
Your arguments come off so self serving like it's all about the little guys, I got bad news it's up to them, you, me to find our own way. Don't lean on anybody, ask for what you haven't earned, the only time for that is your darkest hour. And then with how smart our government is they'll be late or not come at all. Hurricane Katrina, sandy ........
In a Socialist country hurricane Katrina would have played out much differently. We wouldn't have been focusing on rebuilding Iraq before rebuilding America. I wasn't saying you were being sexist, but I will say that women were a central part of Native American tribes. In fact, most tribes were matriarchal in nature. Women also played a role in growing and gathering food. Native American's didn't even have an economy in the conventional undertanding of the word. It's a poor analogy, sorry.
Socialists wantmto expand Social Security. The middle class was built on the New Deal, and it declined after Reagan. You may not be a 'Reaganite', but many folks around here are. Right now Liberal states pay for Right wing welfare states' tax subsidies. I propose we all take care of our neighborhood (the nation). In taking care of your neighbor, you show that you do care to take care of people in dark times. In a Socialist system it would be the same situation. Maybe you can't see that people in NY would be taking care of your neighbor too.
Nobody makes it anywhere in life without the participation of others in their endeavors. You act as if man is an island. He succeeds on his own. We are a society.
"Government should be run as a business" - make your case. I would argue that government is not a business, it serves an entirely different purpose than a business, and it shouldn't be run like a business. Are you a Trump supporter? Just curious.
"The middle class was build on the New Deal"
No it wasn't, it was build on a strong growing economy that had a very tight labor market, it had very little to do with the government.
Also, I agree that Reaganomics is a failed concept, the proof is today's economic environment.
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: perhaps this will clear some misconceptions about Bernie Sanders a bit.... [Re: tripN]
#21884286 - 07/01/15 06:42 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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tripN, your patience is admirable but the moonbats will just keep babbling the same old crap no matter what you tell them, no matter what the facts are just as they will vote democrat until they die even though it never made a difference.
If stalin was a dem and was running, they would pick him over the best gop there is and not even consider the third parties.
Woof used to be a rational person, he/she has gone downhill and is an ordinary troll now.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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tripN
Novice psychonaut


Registered: 06/27/15
Posts: 79
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
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Re: perhaps this will clear some misconceptions about Bernie Sanders a bit.... [Re: qman]
#21884333 - 07/01/15 06:48 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Can we agree on one thing all of the ideas that we as a society come up with should be tested on a state level, proven or disproven, then adopted, changed a little bit or thrown out.
I see no reason 5-10 years of socialism cannot be tried out in California, if it works there then other states will adopt it.
Can we find some middle ground with the idea that we should experiment different ideas in different states?
-------------------- Keep calm and trip on
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tripN
Novice psychonaut


Registered: 06/27/15
Posts: 79
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
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Re: perhaps this will clear some misconceptions about Bernie Sanders a bit.... [Re: Stonehenge]
#21884429 - 07/01/15 07:02 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: tripN, your patience is admirable but the moonbats will just keep babbling the same old crap no matter what you tell them, no matter what the facts are just as they will vote democrat until they die even though it never made a difference.
If stalin was a dem and was running, they would pick him over the best gop there is and not even consider the third parties.
Woof used to be a rational person, he/she has gone downhill and is an ordinary troll now.
If that is true (people not listening to there fellow men/women and arguing the positive and negatives of certain ideas, voting for somebody just because of there party or how cool they are) then we as a nation are truly fucked. Don't ever let anybody make decisions for you, listen, interpret, think it out, then choose the one that makes the most sense. If we truely love our country we will work together to find solutions not work behind others backs. We may have disagreements that is to be expected and is truely evident here.
At the end of the day a compromise must be reached I do it all the time in my business life. However in the national debates most think with there hearts not minds. Politicians worry about our brains but embrace our hearts and play us using them.
When everybody agrees on something usually the problem is white and black. Today's problems are many shades of gray.
More than 50.
-------------------- Keep calm and trip on
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,347
Last seen: 3 hours, 48 minutes
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Re: perhaps this will clear some misconceptions about Bernie Sanders a bit.... [Re: qman]
#21884521 - 07/01/15 07:18 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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New Deal labor law provided legal protections that allowed workers to build unions and to negotiate for higher wages and benefits and for safe working conditions. New Deal legislation set labor standards, creating a minimum wage and overtime that lifted the incomes of workers across the wage spectrum. The minimum wage is the reference wage, which all specialized job pay rates are measured against.
Middle class wages were not the result of corporate benevolence. An enormous movement of striking workers, facing decades of government suppression, won the right to organize.
Do you think that without the minimum wage people would be earning a decent living in America? The free trade deals that force us to compete with cheap foreign labor would surely drive labod wages down.
Look, you Libertarians can spit on civilization all you like, but you can't change historical fact. The New Deal is what made america strong. Deregulation, free trade, and austerity make America weak.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,347
Last seen: 3 hours, 48 minutes
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Re: perhaps this will clear some misconceptions about Bernie Sanders a bit.... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#21884581 - 07/01/15 07:23 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think stoney is trying to imply that I just run around backing D's and check 'D' in the voting booth without consideration. I submit that he knows better, and he is strawmanning once again.
I reflect deeply on political issues, and through that reflection I have built a set of values. My values are different than Stonehenge's, so therefore he wishes to characterize me as some sort of ignorant blind dem. I was an avid supporter of Ron Paul when he ran. I am an even stronger supporter of Bernie Sanders now. Bernie is not some mainstream dem, and he would be harder pressed to win the general election than Hillary. If I were just a blind dem I would vote for the dem most likely to win, instead of the one with ideals I identify with.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
Edited by Bigbadwooof (07/01/15 07:24 PM)
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 5 hours, 59 minutes
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Re: perhaps this will clear some misconceptions about Bernie Sanders a bit.... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#21884674 - 07/01/15 07:39 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: New Deal labor law provided legal protections that allowed workers to build unions and to negotiate for higher wages and benefits and for safe working conditions. New Deal legislation set labor standards, creating a minimum wage and overtime that lifted the incomes of workers across the wage spectrum. The minimum wage is the reference wage, which all specialized job pay rates are measured against.
Middle class wages were not the result of corporate benevolence. An enormous movement of striking workers, facing decades of government suppression, won the right to organize.
Do you think that without the minimum wage people would be earning a decent living in America? The free trade deals that force us to compete with cheap foreign labor would surely drive labod wages down.
Look, you Libertarians can spit on civilization all you like, but you can't change historical fact. The New Deal is what made america strong. Deregulation, free trade, and austerity make America weak.
"creating a minimum wage...lifted the incomes of workers"
No, the start of WW2 is what got the economy going in the early 1940's, it was natural market forces that lifted wages, not a mandate by the government.
Guess what happened when the US won WW2? The US labor market had too much work relative to workers, that's what created the strong middle class, not government regulation. 
Why were corporate profits so small and wages were so high during the 60's and 70's? Because companies had NO other choice other than pay higher wages, they didn't have illegal workers, they didn't have Mexico, China, ect. to outsource work. Strong wages are the result of natural market forces, it's called supply and demand.
If setting a high minimum wage was the recipe of economic prosperity and a strong middle class, why doesn't Spain, Greece, Italy, Japan, Mexico and others just hike their minimum wages regardless of the economic environment? Because it doesn't work unless you have economic strength to support it.
"Free trade and austerity make American weak"
No disagreement there because our trade deals are NOT "free" at all.
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: perhaps this will clear some misconceptions about Bernie Sanders a bit.... [Re: qman]
#21884731 - 07/01/15 07:53 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
tripN said: Can we agree on one thing all of the ideas that we as a society come up with should be tested on a state level, proven or disproven, then adopted, changed a little bit or thrown out.
I see no reason 5-10 years of socialism cannot be tried out in California, if it works there then other states will adopt it.
Can we find some middle ground with the idea that we should experiment different ideas in different states?
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: New Deal labor law provided legal protections that allowed workers to build unions and to negotiate for higher wages and benefits and for safe working conditions. New Deal legislation set labor standards, creating a minimum wage and overtime that lifted the incomes of workers across the wage spectrum. The minimum wage is the reference wage, which all specialized job pay rates are measured against.
Middle class wages were not the result of corporate benevolence. An enormous movement of striking workers, facing decades of government suppression, won the right to organize.
Do you think that without the minimum wage people would be earning a decent living in America? The free trade deals that force us to compete with cheap foreign labor would surely drive labod wages down.
Look, you Libertarians can spit on civilization all you like, but you can't change historical fact. The New Deal is what made america strong. Deregulation, free trade, and austerity make America weak.
"creating a minimum wage...lifted the incomes of workers"
No, the start of WW2 is what got the economy going in the early 1940's, it was natural market forces that lifted wages, not a mandate by the government.
Guess what happened when the US won WW2? The US labor market had too much work relative to workers, that's what created the strong middle class, not government regulation. 
Why were corporate profits so small and wages were so high during the 60's and 70's? Because companies had NO other choice other than pay higher wages, they didn't have illegal workers, they didn't have Mexico, China, ect. to outsource work. Strong wages are the result of natural market forces, it's called supply and demand.
If setting a high minimum wage was the recipe of economic prosperity and a strong middle class, why doesn't Spain, Greece, Italy, Japan, Mexico and others just hike their minimum wages regardless of the economic environment? Because it doesn't work unless you have economic strength to support it.
"Free trade and austerity make American weak"
No disagreement there because our trade deals are NOT "free" at all.
Good rebuttal. The left wing fanatics won't be able to understand it but reasonable folk may. The left likes simple answers that have an emotional ring to them. They think with their feelings, not their brain. They will tell you they analyze each candidate and only pick the best one regardless of party. Then you notice that they always vote for one party no matter what and you realize they are full of crap. Same goes for the right wing loonies who vote gop like it would make a difference.
If a gop had done half the things obumble did, the same loonies that are defending obumble would be on the warpath calling him a terrible president. "sent us off to war after promising the opposite?" fail "said he would go easy on medical pot and cracked down instead?" A gop would never get away with that, they would rant about it every day. But obumble gets no flack from the left. They don't like it and dimly understand something is wrong but they keep pulling the d lever no matter what.
Wait till the full impact of the bargain with the devil called tpp comes out. They will try to blame it on bush somehow.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,347
Last seen: 3 hours, 48 minutes
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Re: perhaps this will clear some misconceptions about Bernie Sanders a bit.... [Re: qman]
#21884775 - 07/01/15 08:04 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: New Deal labor law provided legal protections that allowed workers to build unions and to negotiate for higher wages and benefits and for safe working conditions. New Deal legislation set labor standards, creating a minimum wage and overtime that lifted the incomes of workers across the wage spectrum. The minimum wage is the reference wage, which all specialized job pay rates are measured against.
Middle class wages were not the result of corporate benevolence. An enormous movement of striking workers, facing decades of government suppression, won the right to organize.
Do you think that without the minimum wage people would be earning a decent living in America? The free trade deals that force us to compete with cheap foreign labor would surely drive labod wages down.
Look, you Libertarians can spit on civilization all you like, but you can't change historical fact. The New Deal is what made america strong. Deregulation, free trade, and austerity make America weak.
"creating a minimum wage...lifted the incomes of workers"
No, the start of WW2 is what got the economy going in the early 1940's, it was natural market forces that lifted wages, not a mandate by the government.
Guess what happened when the US won WW2? The US labor market had too much work relative to workers, that's what created the strong middle class, not government regulation. 
Why were corporate profits so small and wages were so high during the 60's and 70's? Because companies had NO other choice other than pay higher wages, they didn't have illegal workers, they didn't have Mexico, China, ect. to outsource work. Strong wages are the result of natural market forces, it's called supply and demand.
If setting a high minimum wage was the recipe of economic prosperity and a strong middle class, why doesn't Spain, Greece, Italy, Japan, Mexico and others just hike their minimum wages regardless of the economic environment? Because it doesn't work unless you have economic strength to support it.
"Free trade and austerity make American weak"
No disagreement there because our trade deals are NOT "free" at all.
Without wage regulations business owners would have just taken a higher share of the profits. Without overtime regulation workers would not earn overtime pay. Sure, there was a competitive labor market, but the minimum wage raised the wages of those who weren't competitive in the market. If businesses don't pay decent wages, welfare picks up the tab. If full time workers cant pay their bills, and welfare doesn't pick up the tab, you have a shrinking middle class. You have more poverty.
Free trade is free. It is a form of deregulation. It is a Libertarian value. Do you support getting rid of the minimum wage and social security? A social safety net is part of functional capitalism.
Adam Smith and James Madison both supported regulation of business in support of workers. If you disagree I will pull their quotes on the subject, but otherwise I don't feel like digging them up.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,347
Last seen: 3 hours, 48 minutes
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Re: perhaps this will clear some misconceptions about Bernie Sanders a bit.... [Re: Stonehenge]
#21884871 - 07/01/15 08:24 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Good rebuttal. The left wing fanatics won't be able to understand it but reasonable folk may. The left likes simple answers that have an emotional ring to them. They think with their feelings, not their brain. They will tell you they analyze each candidate and only pick the best one regardless of party. Then you notice that they always vote for one party no matter what and you realize they are full of crap. Same goes for the right wing loonies who vote gop like it would make a difference.
If a gop had done half the things obumble did, the same loonies that are defending obumble would be on the warpath calling him a terrible president. "sent us off to war after promising the opposite?" fail "said he would go easy on medical pot and cracked down instead?" A gop would never get away with that, they would rant about it every day. But obumble gets no flack from the left. They don't like it and dimly understand something is wrong but they keep pulling the d lever no matter what.
Wait till the full impact of the bargain with the devil called tpp comes out. They will try to blame it on bush somehow.
The left likes simple answers that have an emotional ring to them? Holy fucking jesus, are you serious? With your Sarah Palins and Michelle Bachmans, Rick Perry, George and Jebb, you say that the left is the party of the simple minded.
Partisanship isn't exclusive to the left, sir.
Stonehenge, you are the only person here who 'trolls' with every post you make.
You should really try contributing something aside from 'liberals is dumb!'
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 5 hours, 59 minutes
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Re: perhaps this will clear some misconceptions about Bernie Sanders a bit.... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#21884893 - 07/01/15 08:27 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: New Deal labor law provided legal protections that allowed workers to build unions and to negotiate for higher wages and benefits and for safe working conditions. New Deal legislation set labor standards, creating a minimum wage and overtime that lifted the incomes of workers across the wage spectrum. The minimum wage is the reference wage, which all specialized job pay rates are measured against.
Middle class wages were not the result of corporate benevolence. An enormous movement of striking workers, facing decades of government suppression, won the right to organize.
Do you think that without the minimum wage people would be earning a decent living in America? The free trade deals that force us to compete with cheap foreign labor would surely drive labod wages down.
Look, you Libertarians can spit on civilization all you like, but you can't change historical fact. The New Deal is what made america strong. Deregulation, free trade, and austerity make America weak.
"creating a minimum wage...lifted the incomes of workers"
No, the start of WW2 is what got the economy going in the early 1940's, it was natural market forces that lifted wages, not a mandate by the government.
Guess what happened when the US won WW2? The US labor market had too much work relative to workers, that's what created the strong middle class, not government regulation. 
Why were corporate profits so small and wages were so high during the 60's and 70's? Because companies had NO other choice other than pay higher wages, they didn't have illegal workers, they didn't have Mexico, China, ect. to outsource work. Strong wages are the result of natural market forces, it's called supply and demand.
If setting a high minimum wage was the recipe of economic prosperity and a strong middle class, why doesn't Spain, Greece, Italy, Japan, Mexico and others just hike their minimum wages regardless of the economic environment? Because it doesn't work unless you have economic strength to support it.
"Free trade and austerity make American weak"
No disagreement there because our trade deals are NOT "free" at all.
Without wage regulations business owners would have just taken a higher share of the profits. Without overtime regulation workers would not earn overtime pay. Sure, there was a competitive labor market, but the minimum wage raised the wages of those who weren't competitive in the market. If businesses don't pay decent wages, welfare picks up the tab. If full time workers cant pay their bills, and welfare doesn't pick up the tab, you have a shrinking middle class. You have more poverty.
Free trade is free. It is a form of deregulation. It is a Libertarian value. Do you support getting rid of the minimum wage and social security? A social safety net is part of functional capitalism.
Adam Smith and James Madison both supported regulation of business in support of workers. If you disagree I will pull their quotes on the subject, but otherwise I don't feel like digging them up.
I have no issue with minimum wage laws, but at the same time I realize it really doesn't do that much to create economic prosperity. Does it help people in today's economic environment? Yes, because we have a massive excess pool of labor which could theoretically drive wages even lower. Does it create jobs? No.
Again, government regulation over wages doesn't really create wage growth, it's about a growing economy and the supply/demand dynamics that take place in the labor market. Why do you think the wages in India/China (4 billion people) are so low? It has NOTHING to do with the minimum wage laws!!
Social security is OK at best, so far it's worked for most Americans, time will tell you it works in the future when the payouts exceed the SS revenue.
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tripN
Novice psychonaut


Registered: 06/27/15
Posts: 79
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
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Re: perhaps this will clear some misconceptions about Bernie Sanders a bit.... [Re: qman]
#21884940 - 07/01/15 08:36 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Social security is OK at best, so far it's worked for most Americans, time will tell you it works in the future when the payouts exceed the SS revenue.
Bad news dude it's happening, maybe 20 years at best.
-------------------- Keep calm and trip on
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,347
Last seen: 3 hours, 48 minutes
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Re: perhaps this will clear some misconceptions about Bernie Sanders a bit.... [Re: qman]
#21884945 - 07/01/15 08:36 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: New Deal labor law provided legal protections that allowed workers to build unions and to negotiate for higher wages and benefits and for safe working conditions. New Deal legislation set labor standards, creating a minimum wage and overtime that lifted the incomes of workers across the wage spectrum. The minimum wage is the reference wage, which all specialized job pay rates are measured against.
Middle class wages were not the result of corporate benevolence. An enormous movement of striking workers, facing decades of government suppression, won the right to organize.
Do you think that without the minimum wage people would be earning a decent living in America? The free trade deals that force us to compete with cheap foreign labor would surely drive labod wages down.
Look, you Libertarians can spit on civilization all you like, but you can't change historical fact. The New Deal is what made america strong. Deregulation, free trade, and austerity make America weak.
"creating a minimum wage...lifted the incomes of workers"
No, the start of WW2 is what got the economy going in the early 1940's, it was natural market forces that lifted wages, not a mandate by the government.
Guess what happened when the US won WW2? The US labor market had too much work relative to workers, that's what created the strong middle class, not government regulation. 
Why were corporate profits so small and wages were so high during the 60's and 70's? Because companies had NO other choice other than pay higher wages, they didn't have illegal workers, they didn't have Mexico, China, ect. to outsource work. Strong wages are the result of natural market forces, it's called supply and demand.
If setting a high minimum wage was the recipe of economic prosperity and a strong middle class, why doesn't Spain, Greece, Italy, Japan, Mexico and others just hike their minimum wages regardless of the economic environment? Because it doesn't work unless you have economic strength to support it.
"Free trade and austerity make American weak"
No disagreement there because our trade deals are NOT "free" at all.
Without wage regulations business owners would have just taken a higher share of the profits. Without overtime regulation workers would not earn overtime pay. Sure, there was a competitive labor market, but the minimum wage raised the wages of those who weren't competitive in the market. If businesses don't pay decent wages, welfare picks up the tab. If full time workers cant pay their bills, and welfare doesn't pick up the tab, you have a shrinking middle class. You have more poverty.
Free trade is free. It is a form of deregulation. It is a Libertarian value. Do you support getting rid of the minimum wage and social security? A social safety net is part of functional capitalism.
Adam Smith and James Madison both supported regulation of business in support of workers. If you disagree I will pull their quotes on the subject, but otherwise I don't feel like digging them up.
I have no issue with minimum wage laws, but at the same time I realize it really doesn't do that much to create economic prosperity. Does it help people in today's economic environment? Yes, because we have a massive excess pool of labor which could theoretically drive wages even lower. Does it create jobs? No.
Again, government regulation over wages doesn't really create wage growth, it's about a growing economy and the supply/demand dynamics that take place in the labor market. Why do you think the wages in India/China (4 billion people) are so low? It has NOTHING to do with the minimum wage laws!!
Social security is OK at best, so far it's worked for most Americans, time will tell you it works in the future when the payouts exceed the SS revenue.
I agree with you that the market environment has a powerful impact on wage growth. That's nit a point that can be argued. Supply and demand of labor surely play a role. With todays technologies, we will never see the demand for labor we once had. One solution might be to shrink the labor force via starvation and/or murder.
Here is a hypothetical for you. Robots take all of our jobs except for robot technicians. Do you still believe nothing should be done to equitibly distribute he wealth generated by human progress? Computers and robots are already taking over jobs. In the 50's it would have taken a much larger labor force to acheive what we create nowadays. Productivity has been skyrocketing because of technological advancement. Shouldn't that technology be used to raise society as a whole? Or should it only be used to raise up a few people?
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,347
Last seen: 3 hours, 48 minutes
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Re: perhaps this will clear some misconceptions about Bernie Sanders a bit.... [Re: tripN]
#21884951 - 07/01/15 08:37 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
tripN said: Social security is OK at best, so far it's worked for most Americans, time will tell you it works in the future when the payouts exceed the SS revenue.
Bad news dude it's happening, maybe 20 years at best.
Social security would be fine if we eliminate the cap on SSI tax. If Bernie is president social security will be solvent for 80+ years
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: perhaps this will clear some misconceptions about Bernie Sanders a bit.... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#21885095 - 07/01/15 09:10 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Woof, that last post of yours made me laugh. And not just because I was high.
>The left likes simple answers that have an emotional ring to them? Holy fucking jesus, are you serious?
Look around yourself, what do you see besides that?
>With your Sarah Palins and Michelle Bachmans, Rick Perry, George and Jebb, you say that the left is the party of the simple minded.
"my" sarah... etc? How did those clowns become mine? Was I appointed their guardian or something? Or were you thinking of someone else? I'm glad you aren't simple minded or dizzy, but some people are. Where do you get off blaming me for whatever they did that you didn't like? See what I mean?
OK, here is where you were right and I agree 100%
>Social security would be fine if we eliminate the cap on SSI tax. If Bernie is president social security will be solvent for 80+ years
But... and its a big but, govt has to stop spending like a drunken liberal. I didn't want to get flack for insulting sailors so I said it that way.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Re: perhaps this will clear some misconceptions about Bernie Sanders a bit.... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#21885106 - 07/01/15 09:13 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
tripN said: Social security is OK at best, so far it's worked for most Americans, time will tell you it works in the future when the payouts exceed the SS revenue.
Bad news dude it's happening, maybe 20 years at best.
Social security would be fine if we eliminate the cap on SSI tax. If Bernie is president social security will be solvent for 80+ years
wow, what a novel Liberal idea... tax the rich more.
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,347
Last seen: 3 hours, 48 minutes
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Re: perhaps this will clear some misconceptions about Bernie Sanders a bit.... [Re: Stonehenge]
#21885135 - 07/01/15 09:24 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Stonehenge said: Woof, that last post of yours made me laugh. And not just because I was high.
>The left likes simple answers that have an emotional ring to them? Holy fucking jesus, are you serious?
Look around yourself, what do you see besides that?
>With your Sarah Palins and Michelle Bachmans, Rick Perry, George and Jebb, you say that the left is the party of the simple minded.
"my" sarah... etc? How did those clowns become mine? Was I appointed their guardian or something? Or were you thinking of someone else? I'm glad you aren't simple minded or dizzy, but some people are. Where do you get off blaming me for whatever they did that you didn't like? See what I mean?
OK, here is where you were right and I agree 100%
>Social security would be fine if we eliminate the cap on SSI tax. If Bernie is president social security will be solvent for 80+ years
But... and its a big but, govt has to stop spending like a drunken liberal. I didn't want to get flack for insulting sailors so I said it that way. 
I know my share of fishermen, and the term fits quite well. I think military spending needs to be cut before anything else. Also, spending on the NSA, and other government institutions that are way out of proportion. That money should be used for the betterment of society on the whole. Government spending on research has been shown to pay off $1.75 to $1 on average. Social security, healthcare, education, and emergency food programs are all worthy efforts to pursue.
Rebuilding Iraq and investing in Israels defense program are not efforts worthy of pursuit when our economy is in shambles.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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tripN
Novice psychonaut


Registered: 06/27/15
Posts: 79
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
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Re: perhaps this will clear some misconceptions about Bernie Sanders a bit.... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#21885487 - 07/01/15 10:39 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
Stonehenge said: Woof, that last post of yours made me laugh. And not just because I was high.
>The left likes simple answers that have an emotional ring to them? Holy fucking jesus, are you serious?
Look around yourself, what do you see besides that?
>With your Sarah Palins and Michelle Bachmans, Rick Perry, George and Jebb, you say that the left is the party of the simple minded.
"my" sarah... etc? How did those clowns become mine? Was I appointed their guardian or something? Or were you thinking of someone else? I'm glad you aren't simple minded or dizzy, but some people are. Where do you get off blaming me for whatever they did that you didn't like? See what I mean?
OK, here is where you were right and I agree 100%
>Social security would be fine if we eliminate the cap on SSI tax. If Bernie is president social security will be solvent for 80+ years
But... and its a big but, govt has to stop spending like a drunken liberal. I didn't want to get flack for insulting sailors so I said it that way. 
I know my share of fishermen, and the term fits quite well. I think military spending needs to be cut before anything else. Also, spending on the NSA, and other government institutions that are way out of proportion. That money should be used for the betterment of society on the whole. Government spending on research has been shown to pay off $1.75 to $1 on average. Social security, healthcare, education, and emergency food programs are all worthy efforts to pursue.
Rebuilding Iraq and investing in Israels defense program are not efforts worthy of pursuit when our economy is in shambles.
So say you raise the tax, cut the military and send that dough to SS.
Sooner or later the well will run dry then we get what Greece is going through.
At this point it is damn neer impossible to pay our debts, I wonder how long it will last, when will our land and all assets be reposest?
SS get it like the holocaust guys. One kills faster but the other kills an entire country (the best ever seen) and society.
-------------------- Keep calm and trip on
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Le_Canard
The Duk Abides


Registered: 05/16/03
Posts: 94,392
Loc: Earthfarm 1
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Re: perhaps this will clear some misconceptions about Bernie Sanders a bit.... [Re: tripN]
#21885500 - 07/01/15 10:43 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Social Security WOULD still be more solvent now and in the future if Congress hadn't pissed away the over $2 trillion trust fund over the years. And yes, both parties are to blame for this. And a major reason Greece is having such problems is that income tax evasion is rife.
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