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Invisiblekaiowas
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Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,498
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fight or flight interrupts state of calmness
    #2186263 - 12/17/03 09:37 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I started to see on my first salvia trip how this instinct works on us.  it really determines your state of mind.  when a situation arises, you cause the reaction that you have.  especially when we feel we are in danger, it kicks in...pumping adrenaline into your body and your mind is sent reeling, well at least mine does when this happens. 

but then in danger we kinda need that, but then there's worrying.  when we worry our body does the same thing, we start thinking and thinking more, and then we are caught up and our calmness is interrupted.  we lose our clarity when we do this and thus what we might do may not be rational.  you've heard the term of being centered right??  we lose it everytime we worry.

so what ties us to this worry?  to me it's judgement.  we don't need this fight or flight thing anymore because we aren't really in the wild, most of the people (at least those who have computers :wink:) don't need to feel worry.  to me the only real worry that is needed is for shelter food, and clothing.  the rest is just sickness to our bodies.

it drains our energy and we get exausted. we exert ourselves, especially whn the adrenaline kicks in.  it puts stress on our bodies, which in turn can make us sick.

has anyone else sought this out or am I trippin?


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
Loc: up on the bidet
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: fight or flight interrupts state of calmness [Re: kaiowas]
    #2186308 - 12/17/03 09:52 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I think of this all the time cause I have panic attacks due to
PTSD...
I completely agree with you. We need to evolve from the
panic response. In any case I don't think it's all that
useful, most deers panic and freeze up and get run over by
cars...how useful is that ?
I think logic and rationality need to replace this reactionary
response.


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: fight or flight interrupts state of calmness [Re: kaiowas]
    #2186784 - 12/18/03 01:51 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I think it's unhealthy for us to think we don't need our instincts anymore, now that we're thouroughly civilized. What drains us is not our natural insticts, but the conditions of said civilization that prevent us from quickly acting on them and getting it over with. When you get in a traffic jam, for example, you feel stress and the need to fight your way through or run away but it isn't possible. Instead you remain trapped, and that being trapped is damaging. This is just one example of such a situation. Instincts are not the cause of worry or stress, being unable to deal with them naturally and appropriately is.

It bothers me to hear people blaming nature and saying that if only we could do away with nature (since we don't need it anymore) then everything would be just fine.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: fight or flight interrupts state of calmness [Re: kaiowas]
    #2187098 - 12/18/03 05:39 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

kaiowas said:
has anyone else sought this out or am I trippin?




Myself, I think you read a really good fucking book once, and you've really started seeing how the ideas it expressed really were onto something. *ahem*. Handbook to Higher Consciousness *cough, cough* Ken Keyes Jr *hacckkkk, cough cough*

Hell ja, buddy. Our mind has a program to continue our survival. Its like the crutches you need when you have a broken leg so that you can still get around. Well, when you are capable of walking around again on your own, doesn't the crutches just sort of drag you?

When we were a child, we had to get crystal clear, "do this and don't do this" commands, complete with an emotional backing to make sure we would follow. I mean, when you are that young, your understanding of the world is pretty much nil. But yet you still need to make it through life to gain this understanding, right?

There comes a point when we are suspossed to realize that our way of looking at the world that was programmed into us out of necessity in order to survive was just a temporary thing, in order to get us to a point where we are actually capable of walking on our own and making our own decisions.

Our ego sees a shadow flying over the chicken coup, and then the negative feeling is released and the already programmed, instant response is already underway. Myself, I value having a free mind. When your brain isn't flooding you with the dire need of either running or fighting, shooting fear into you, your mind is much more clear to actually tune into the situation you are in and will be able to determine the best course of action for itself.

Not to mention the amount of energy that gets completely wasted "protecting" your survival. Free your mind of instant responses and restless scanning, take control of it and use it effectively, see how great life really can be.  :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: fight or flight interrupts state of calmness [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #2187334 - 12/18/03 09:52 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

". When you get in a traffic jam, for example, you feel stress and the need to fight your way through or run away but it isn't possible. Instead you remain trapped, and that being trapped is damaging. This is just one example of such a situation. Instincts are not the cause of worry or stress, being unable to deal with them naturally and appropriately is. "

k first off what I was talking about is fight or flight, not all of our instincts. 

so are you saying then that we shouldn't really have control over our feelings?  guess what??  when you are in a traffic jam and you start reeling in your mind at all the places you NEED to go, that's all you!  not the traffic but you!!  you are the cause of what you feel.  you implant your emotions in your own head when you want to not the cars.

sure traffic may suck, but hey worrying about it won't help you none! all the worrying will do will drain your energy away.  not to mention interrupt your peace of mind. 

so what's apprpriate to you??  natura;l as maybe beating something in with a hammer???  when I'm angry I would like to break stuff, and not my own either. I'm jsut kidding here but yeah the "natural" way of handling emotions is different for everyone.  so you really can't go around saying, what is and what isn't.

as far as doing without the instinct, you can't really eliminate it :lol:  that's just tomfoolery.  you can however give it a back seat instead of the front one! let it chill out for most of the time until you REALLY need it


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: fight or flight interrupts state of calmness [Re: kaiowas]
    #2187472 - 12/18/03 11:33 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

kaiowas said:
you can however give it a back seat instead of the front one! let it chill out for most of the time until you REALLY need it




Yep. We are the caretakers of our mind, it is only our mind that is responsible for what we feel, say, and do. If something pisses you off, if you experience any sort of negative emotion, it is due to a flaw in your programming. We are not here to suffer. We only cause ourselves to suffer; it isn't natural, and it isn't what we deserve.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
Loc: up on the bidet
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: fight or flight interrupts state of calmness [Re: kaiowas]
    #2187707 - 12/18/03 01:11 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Good point kaiowas... also I'd like to point out what
exactly is "natural" ? this is a highly abused term...
in effect the earth was once a ball of glowing hot
gases and now it has "evolved" "naturally" into what we
see now...this, everything we see around us (including
concrete buildings, pharmacuticals etc) are all "natural"...
if a bever builds a dam, that dam is considered "natural",
similarly, we are "natural" organisms and what we create is
also "natural"...
again, I think "natural" is abused and misleading...
the question is one of evolution. As fireworks pointed
out the flight or flight response is simply not needed
anymore when understanding has become part of our
"nature"...


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: fight or flight interrupts state of calmness [Re: lucid]
    #2187814 - 12/18/03 02:17 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

we are "natural" organisms and what we create is
also "natural"...


Is sex with a sheep also natural?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
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Re: fight or flight interrupts state of calmness [Re: Swami]
    #2187906 - 12/18/03 03:21 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
we are "natural" organisms and what we create is
also "natural"...


Is sex with a sheep also natural?




I ask you what is "natural", give me a good definition,
then we can proceed...


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
Loc: up on the bidet
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: fight or flight interrupts state of calmness [Re: Swami]
    #2187910 - 12/18/03 03:23 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Also, my point is that "natural" and "unnatural" don't even
need to be considered.
what needs to be considered is what is "useful" and what is
"not useful". In this regard, panic seems to be less useful
then reasoning and sound judgement.


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: fight or flight interrupts state of calmness [Re: kaiowas]
    #2188120 - 12/18/03 04:46 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

kaiowas said:
". When you get in a traffic jam, for example, you feel stress and the need to fight your way through or run away but it isn't possible. Instead you remain trapped, and that being trapped is damaging. This is just one example of such a situation. Instincts are not the cause of worry or stress, being unable to deal with them naturally and appropriately is. "

k first off what I was talking about is fight or flight, not all of our instincts. 

so are you saying then that we shouldn't really have control over our feelings?  guess what??  when you are in a traffic jam and you start reeling in your mind at all the places you NEED to go, that's all you!  not the traffic but you!!  you are the cause of what you feel.  you implant your emotions in your own head when you want to not the cars.

sure traffic may suck, but hey worrying about it won't help you none! all the worrying will do will drain your energy away.  not to mention interrupt your peace of mind. 

so what's apprpriate to you??  natura;l as maybe beating something in with a hammer???  when I'm angry I would like to break stuff, and not my own either. I'm jsut kidding here but yeah the "natural" way of handling emotions is different for everyone.  so you really can't go around saying, what is and what isn't.

as far as doing without the instinct, you can't really eliminate it :lol:  that's just tomfoolery.  you can however give it a back seat instead of the front one! let it chill out for most of the time until you REALLY need it




Fair enough. You make a good point here. My perogative is thus: Instinct is natural and beautiful and I have no desire to ignore or be rid of my primitive mind or my bodies response to anything. However, it is true that in our current society we can't let insticts command our response without thinking about an appropriate means of responding.

I can't go and punch my boss in the face when she is rude to me even though I really want to. But I *can* however, collect my thoughts and feelings and tell her that her comments were unnaceptable and innapropriate. Doing that isn't denying my instincts, it's allowing them to inform me and then letting the most situation-appropriate realm to deal with it. In this case, the mind.

There are, however situations in which we require our initial response of fight or flight, and we are hopelessly sheltered if we think such situations don't arise in modern civilization. For example, someone makes a rape attempt against you (or decides to shit-kick you because you're gay/asian/black/in the wrong place... The appropriate response is to scream and yell, kick him in the junk, or punch him in the nose and run like hell when possible. This response doesn't come from calm, contemplative thought, it's an instinctual response to an immediate and very real threat. If we were to put instincts on the back burner, distrust them, shut them off, we would likely be unprepared to deal with such a situation. Is there something spiritually weak about protecting ones own person? Something spiritually unevolved about trusting the gifts our bodies offer and allowing our basic self to do it's job?


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: fight or flight interrupts state of calmness [Re: kaiowas]
    #2188129 - 12/18/03 04:49 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Sorry, I didn't notice your last point, the "until you really need it" part. That's what I'm arguing for, we *do* really need it and its unhealthy to deny that, since you *aren't* denying that I think we probably agree more than we think we do. I, however, think that we do need and use instincts to deal with minor or mundane things, its just toned down, more of an informer than and reactionary. Also, I tend to use the words instinct and intuition somewhat interchangeably although they can be defined somewhat differently.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Registered: 07/14/03
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Re: fight or flight interrupts state of calmness [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #2188621 - 12/18/03 09:14 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

"Sorry, I didn't notice your last point, the "until you really need it" part. That's what I'm arguing for, we *do* really need it and its unhealthy to deny that, since you *aren't* denying that I think we probably agree more than we think we do. I, however, think that we do need and use instincts to deal with minor or mundane things, its just toned down, more of an informer than and reactionary. Also, I tend to use the words instinct and intuition somewhat interchangeably although they can be defined somewhat differently."

hey now, I did say in my original post "we don't need this fight or flight thing anymore because we aren't really in the wild"  so yeah I'll retract that statement by saying, "we don't relly need to use fight or flight most of the time."  so you did get me there, and I'll have to rethink it a bit more, but hey, what's wrong with thinking more???

you bring up an interesting concept about society though. and I do agree with you somewhat. 

society does have an impact on how we use our emotions though. not to say that we aren't responsible for our actions and reactions per se, but with worrying about time.  being late, being here, being there, gotta do this before traffic starts, ah shit traffic started now I can't go anywhere.  this could fuel any emotion but mostly it's worry or anger. this is where I think one of our instincts plays us a big fool, especially on how we COULD look at the world. such as, chill out dude, you have all the time in the world man! if it's really important then go do it.  if not though, it can wait another day.  heh I'm rambling now :smile:

"Also, my point is that "natural" and "unnatural" don't even
need to be considered.
what needs to be considered is what is "useful" and what is
"not useful". In this regard, panic seems to be less useful
then reasoning and sound judgement."

I agree with you lucid, but what is "sound judgement"  to you??  jsut wondering :smile:  I like starting conversation you see.  hehe


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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