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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Feminism, why?????? [Re: Patlal] * 2
    #21860682 - 06/26/15 03:52 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Its a shame really. Women do deserve equal pay





Sorry, but you have been lied to by feminist propaganda.

That whole "women earn 70 cents to a man's dollar" myth that is constantly pushed by feminists is complete bullshit.

It does not even account for differences in occupations, positions, education, job tenure or hours worked per week.
When such relevant factors are considered, the wage gap narrows to the point of almost vanishing completely

http://www.examiner.com/article/gender-pay-gap-is-not-what-activists-claim
http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20Final%20Report.pdf
http://time.com/3222543/5-feminist-myths-that-will-not-die/
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-gender-pay-gap-is-a-complete-myth/
http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/news/releases/more-career-options-may-explain-why-fewer-women-pursue-jobs-in-science-and-math.html
The 15 fields where women earn MORE than men for the exact same work.

It's a complex issue, but it boils down to this:

Quote:


Men are far more likely to choose careers that are more dangerous, that naturally pay more (93% of work-related deaths on the job are men)

Men are far more likely to work in higher-paying fields and occupations (by choice) According to the White House report, "In 2009, only 7 percent of female professionals were employed in the relatively high paying computer and engineering fields, compared with 38 percent of male professionals." Professional women, on the other hand, are far more prevalent "in the relatively low-paying education and health care occupations."

Men are far more likely to take work in uncomfortable, isolated, and undesirable locations that pay more.

Men work longer hours than women do. The average fulltime working man works 6 hours per week or 15 percent longer than the average fulltime working woman.

Men are more likely to take jobs that require work on weekends and evenings and therefore pay more.

Even within the same career category, men are more likely to pursue high-stress and higher-paid areas of specialization. For example, within the medical profession, men gravitate to relatively high-stress and high-paying areas of specialization, like surgery, while women are more likely to pursue relatively lower-paid areas of specialization like pediatrician or dentist.

Women business owners make less than half of what male business owners make, which, since they have no boss, means it's independent of discrimination. The reason for the disparity, according to a Rochester Institute of Technology study, is that money is the primary motivator for 76% of men versus only 29% of women. Women place a higher premium on shorter work weeks, proximity to home, fulfillment, autonomy, and safety, according to Nemko

Despite all of the above, unmarried women who've never had a child actually earn more than unmarried men, according to Nemko and data compiled from the Census Bureau.

It's hard to argue with Nemko's position which, simply put, is this: When women make the same career choices as men, they earn the same amount as men. As far as I'm concerned, this is one myth that has been officially and completely busted. Maybe you should celebrate International Women's Day 2011 by empowering women with the truth instead of treating them like victims ... which they're not.





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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Feminism, why?????? [Re: Shroomism] * 1
    #21860709 - 06/26/15 03:59 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

old problems being touted as relevant today is...not really an issue, it's just obfuscating.

but "modern" feminism as what is proclaimed about here is NOT feminism.

it's misandry. and idiocy.

but feminism is a necessary force, because there are idiot men who will berate woman as inferior, and will try to keep them down. maybe not here, but around.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Feminism, why?????? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #21860713 - 06/26/15 04:01 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

BlindSophist said:
Men get harassed too but it simply does not occur on the same sort of pervasive, widespread basis. Women can expect to be harassed whenever they go out in public unless they are wearing some equivalent of a burqa. I'm telling you that I've lived daily, public life both as a male and as a female and I was never once harassed, never even SAW harassment when I was a male, but now that I am female it is a routine occurrence.

Again, nobody wants you to feel bad about being a male. Feminists just want you to help us by spending some of your strength and energy on rooting out and ending this type of behavior, or at the very least by setting a strong positive example. Blaming women for their own victimization and characterizing them as oversensitive, lying, manipulative and misandrist for honestly reporting their experiences is not respectful and it is not helpful. It sends harassers the message that you will be looking the other way and it tends to breed the extremist streak feminists sometimes display. Many women have been harassed and then ignored so many times that they have given up on men and learned to see them as the great oppressor. They speak of misogyny in grand, conspiratorial terms because that is in fact the reality they live with. I avoid that type of feminism because I've seen both sides of the coin and I know that most men are well-meaning but imperfect people who wish no wrong by women. They mostly just lack the level of trust necessary to sincerely engage with the issues raised by feminism, and this in turn fuels the radicalization of feminism. Feminism pursues equality, not superiority. It works better when men are helping, not hindering.




You may be completely right. I'm not sure because I haven't ever personally witnessed this harassment and abuse out in public. I did talk with my partner about this. She moved here by herself, from Japan when she was 17 and lived on her own for many years, so she was not only a women but also a minority, she was no stranger to discrimination. She says she did experience a lot of catcalling and some harassment, but she always just brushed it aside and completely ignored them because they do not even deserve the time of day or a reaction.

You may also be right about harassers will almost never try to harass a women when she with her BF or whatever because they are cowards.
Why just the other day, my girl was driving, pulling out of a parking lot, (she had the right of way), and some guy blew through a red light and almost nailed her. At the next red light when she was stopped he got out of his car and ran up screaming at her through the window and pounding on the window calling her a cunt and he was gonna kill her and this and that... she just took off because he was a psychopath. Our 8 month old son was in the backseat with her, she was terrified. Just hearing about that boiled my blood. If I was there and that happened... I would have laid that guy the fuck out and stomped his face in and left him bleeding in the middle of the street. But you may be right, he might not have even tried to pull that if I was with her at the time.

And I agree, we should be there to help. And I am, wherever possible. But when I see the same kind of abuse and harassment coming from Feminism, in the name of "equality"... I have to have a problem with that too.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Feminism, why?????? [Re: Shroomism]
    #21860724 - 06/26/15 04:04 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

ya, maybe you might see that at some dumb rally. not just rampant on the streets randomly, however. and the rally is really just protest. no one is really acting on what they're saying, with the exception of some unwieldy idiot's whom are taking the message literally, which i'll admit, is damaging in regards to when people lose their jobs over some misappropriated comment (or shirt)...i'll admit, that's unnecessary idiocy.


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InvisibleMikeBearPig
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Re: Feminism, why?????? [Re: Shroomism]
    #21860736 - 06/26/15 04:07 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
old problems being touted as relevant today is...not really an issue, it's just obfuscating.

but "modern" feminism as what is proclaimed about here is NOT feminism.

it's misandry. and idiocy.

but feminism is a necessary force, because there are idiot men who will berate woman as inferior, and will try to keep them down. maybe not here, but around.




I agree that we need a force, we don't need feminism to be that force though

Women are not the only ones fighting to be equal still.. We are seemingly lost or distracted by all the other people still fighting.  The gay rights movement was HUGE and really put this on the map.  What they failed to learn was..

There are HUNDREDS of different organizations out there fighting for this, yet people only want to highlight their own person problem.  Any specific Ism is worthless unless it is Humanism.  Join together and fight, instead of standing alone.
Quote:

Shroomism said:
Quote:

BlindSophist said:
Men get harassed too but it simply does not occur on the same sort of pervasive, widespread basis. Women can expect to be harassed whenever they go out in public unless they are wearing some equivalent of a burqa. I'm telling you that I've lived daily, public life both as a male and as a female and I was never once harassed, never even SAW harassment when I was a male, but now that I am female it is a routine occurrence.

Again, nobody wants you to feel bad about being a male. Feminists just want you to help us by spending some of your strength and energy on rooting out and ending this type of behavior, or at the very least by setting a strong positive example. Blaming women for their own victimization and characterizing them as oversensitive, lying, manipulative and misandrist for honestly reporting their experiences is not respectful and it is not helpful. It sends harassers the message that you will be looking the other way and it tends to breed the extremist streak feminists sometimes display. Many women have been harassed and then ignored so many times that they have given up on men and learned to see them as the great oppressor. They speak of misogyny in grand, conspiratorial terms because that is in fact the reality they live with. I avoid that type of feminism because I've seen both sides of the coin and I know that most men are well-meaning but imperfect people who wish no wrong by women. They mostly just lack the level of trust necessary to sincerely engage with the issues raised by feminism, and this in turn fuels the radicalization of feminism. Feminism pursues equality, not superiority. It works better when men are helping, not hindering.




You may be completely right. I'm not sure because I haven't ever personally witnessed this harassment and abuse out in public. I did talk with my partner about this. She moved here by herself, from Japan when she was 17 and lived on her own for many years, so she was not only a women but also a minority, she was no stranger to discrimination. She says she did experience a lot of catcalling and some harassment, but she always just brushed it aside and completely ignored them because they do not even deserve the time of day or a reaction.

You may also be right about harassers will almost never try to harass a women when she with her BF or whatever because they are cowards.
Why just the other day, my girl was driving, pulling out of a parking lot, (she had the right of way), and some guy blew through a red light and almost nailed her. At the next red light when she was stopped he got out of his car and ran up screaming at her through the window and pounding on the window calling her a cunt and he was gonna kill her and this and that... she just took off because he was a psychopath. Our 8 month old son was in the backseat with her, she was terrified. Just hearing about that boiled my blood. If I was there and that happened... I would have laid that guy the fuck out and stomped his face in and left him bleeding in the middle of the street. But you may be right, he might not have even tried to pull that if I was with her at the time.

And I agree, we should be there to help. And I am, wherever possible. But when I see the same kind of abuse and harassment coming from Feminism, in the name of "equality"... I have to have a problem with that too.




You guys have both been good contributors to this topic, thank you guys for joining.

Blind, I am with shroom on this, on the other hand its hard to ignore your point.

I have NEVER seen or taken part or even heard of any of my guys friends harassing girls on the street.  Yet, I know it does happen. 

What I don't understand is, why do people allow words to get to them?  It is not harassment if you can ignore it.  If it gets psychical it is a totally different story.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Feminism, why?????? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #21860737 - 06/26/15 04:07 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
ya, maybe you might see that at some dumb rally. not just rampant on the streets randomly, however.




Right. I've known one person in my entire life who behaves the way Shroomism generalizes feminists, and she is nuts like very few people are. As far as I'm concerned, she is the outlier. I'm pretty sure men don't get assailed by vicious psychopathic "feminists" every time they need to make a run to the store.


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Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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Invisiblemoonrockmushy
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Re: Feminism, why?????? [Re: Shroomism] * 1
    #21860791 - 06/26/15 04:20 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

:rolleyes: Honestly I have no interest in reading all your links.  I wish you could actually address what I said without resorting to: "Look at how many links I have compiled?!?!?  Can u do this?!?!"

Explain to me how someone who advocates for equality between men and women is not a feminist.  You are either for that, or you're not a feminist and believe that the differences between the gender entails some level of designed inequality.  It does not ultimately matter that fem is in the title any more than it matters that man is in the title of mankind.  It's a fucking word and it means what it says in the dictionary, that is how I define things and if you are going to disagree with me there I don't know how we can even have a conversation.


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Re: Feminism, why?????? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #21860836 - 06/26/15 04:31 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

The flip side to that argument is this:

Feminism, by it's own definition - constantly challenges the notion of traditional gender roles - that of men as the "protector and provider" and women as the "nurturer and caregiver".

They want females to be on the same playing field as men.. in pretty much everything.
And that's fine I guess... but then ask anyone.. if a female attacks a man, is it ok for a man to respond by beating the shit out of the women just like he would any other man? You want to hit someone like a man, you should be treated like one?
Most people would say no. Why is that? Is it because men are biologically... on average, stronger and built differently than women, it's not fair?
But if there's no real gender roles and women are completely 100% equal to men, then if a chick punches me, I should be able to beat the shit out of her just like I would with any man that did that to me. But that's not how it works in reality.

If feminists truly want TRUE equality, you can't have your cake and eat it too... they want to be equal, but they want special treatment... that's not how it works.
We are a sexually dimorphic species. There are real differences, both physically, mentally and psychologically.
That's in NO WAY saying women are inferior to men in any way. We are just different, and better suited at different roles.

I can see both sides to the argument. Of course we don't have to be specifically defined by traditional gender roles.. and there are always exceptions to every rule.
I have nothing against women wanting to pursue meaningful careers, or do whatever they want to do.. if they want to be a pro bodybuilder.. go for it. Men can be caretakers too.

But I also see some value in traditional gender roles. I've seen it first hand.. woman are just naturally better suited at taking care of babies. When our son was born, she was immediately attached to him, and he to her. I mean after all, she carried him in her womb for 9 months. I couldn't feed him, and he was just a crying, pissing, eating machine... and he had colic for the first 3 months. I was basically worthless. To be perfectly honest, I was completely frustrated, I couldn't even deal with it most of the time. Without her, I don't know what I would have done. It took some time, but as he grew older and became more aware of his surroundings and began reacting to things, it became much, much easier for me and we began to bond more and more. And on that same token, I have no problem stepping up to fill the role of protector for her and him and being a positive male role model for my son.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Feminism, why?????? [Re: Shroomism]
    #21860842 - 06/26/15 04:33 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

i don't know if it's right for anyone to beat on anyone. :shrug:


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Feminism, why?????? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #21860855 - 06/26/15 04:37 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah, that's not how it works in reality. Violent and crazy people exist. If someone attacks me, or someone I care about that can't defend themselves..  I am going to defend myself/them.

Call me a misogynist or supporting the patriarchy or whatever for that I guess.


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Re: Feminism, why?????? [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #21860872 - 06/26/15 04:43 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

moonrockmushy said:
:rolleyes: Honestly I have no interest in reading all your links.  I wish you could actually address what I said without resorting to: "Look at how many links I have compiled?!?!?  Can u do this?!?!"

Explain to me how someone who advocates for equality between men and women is not a feminist.  You are either for that, or you're not a feminist and believe that the differences between the gender entails some level of designed inequality.  It does not ultimately matter that fem is in the title any more than it matters that man is in the title of mankind.  It's a fucking word and it means what it says in the dictionary, that is how I define things and if you are going to disagree with me there I don't know how we can even have a conversation.




So in other words

"I am going to completely ignore all the evidence you presented because it doesn't fit with my narrative"

K.

I think you are confused about the modern definition of feminism, it certainly doesn't stand for equality anymore. Maybe it used to.


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Invisiblemoonrockmushy
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Re: Feminism, why?????? [Re: Shroomism]
    #21860882 - 06/26/15 04:48 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Well I'll keep checking the dictionary for updates, but until then have fun with your agenda.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Feminism, why?????? [Re: Shroomism]
    #21860913 - 06/26/15 05:02 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
Yeah, that's not how it works in reality. Violent and crazy people exist. If someone attacks me, or someone I care about that can't defend themselves..  I am going to defend myself/them.

Call me a misogynist or supporting the patriarchy or whatever for that I guess.



lol, whoa, call you a what now in the whowhat? dude, don't jump to conclusions, i was just making a point.

the point is: you don't see female's running up on anyone and near killing them with their feet and hands. in fact, it's a rarity...unless we're talking cat fights here.


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Re: Feminism, why?????? [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #21860935 - 06/26/15 05:12 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Look man. I addressed your points. I find it kind of hilarious this is how you are choosing to engage me in a rational argument.
Sticking your fingers in your ears and going nanny boo boo I can't hear you isn't helping anything. 

I don't judge a group by the dictionary definition. I judge a group / individuals by the ACTIONS they take in REALITY.

Quote:

moonrockmushy said:
So when feminists attack someone it is because they're feminists and not because they are people who may make mistakes or take things to far.  I see what you're saying there but of course I disagree.

You also seem to outright deny that it is possible that an opposing viewpoint to feminism exists in the modern world that would state women are not equal to men and they do not have a right to speak up when they feel they are being mistreated by men.  I also disagree with this and think we only have feminism to thank for the fact that women in today's world can speak up, and in many ways are less oppressed than they were historically in the western world. 

I'm not entirely clear exactly when you think oppression of women stopped being a problem entirely, but again I don't think that ever happened I think it is still too often a problem.




So like I said, PLEASE PROVIDE ME WITH CONCRETE EXAMPLES of this discrimination you are talking about. I already addressed the issue, providing you NUMEROUS links and things to back up my claims that feminism is causing harm to society AND pushes for special treatment OVER males and actively FIGHTS AGAINST men's rights. You have yet to refute a single thing and in fact you are telling me you REFUSE to even look at them. That's a typical feminist stance. Yes, let's completely ignore REALITY and just go from dictionary definition. All you have provided me with is an Ani Difranco quote.

You said "when feminists attack someone it is because they're feminists and not because they are people who may make mistakes or take things to far.  I see what you're saying there but of course I disagree.". Well then show me why you disagree. I provided you with numerous cases of FEMINISTS, acting AS FEMINISTS, fighting AGAINST men's rights and demanding preferential treatment over men. These weren't just a couple extremists, doing stupid things. These are LEADING feminists, and feminist groups, acting with purpose. They have gotten LAWS PASSED in their favor.

I never said feminism has always been completely worthless. 50 years ago it was sorely needed. But now - in first world countries, women have ALL THE RIGHTS MEN HAVE.. Feminism was already victorious. Women have their rights... and MORE in many cases. I provided NUMEROUS examples of this. Which you refuse to even acknowledge.

I'm not saying the world is perfect. Far from it. We still have progress to make. There are still issues. But feminism is no longer relevant in the first world, and has taken things way too far in many case.
But to sit here and say women are so oppressed in our first world society.. well I say that's complete and total bullshit, my chick agrees with me. Women are not "oppressed", in America, or Europe, or Japan, or Canada, or any other progressive first world country. Now if you want to go to a country where REAL misogyny and oppression takes place, that's a different story. But if you are going to sit here and tell me poor helpless women are SO OPPRESSED in America/Canada whatever, well then I want you to show me some real tangible evidence of that.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Feminism, why?????? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #21860946 - 06/26/15 05:18 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
Quote:

Shroomism said:
Yeah, that's not how it works in reality. Violent and crazy people exist. If someone attacks me, or someone I care about that can't defend themselves..  I am going to defend myself/them.

Call me a misogynist or supporting the patriarchy or whatever for that I guess.



lol, whoa, call you a what now in the whowhat? dude, don't jump to conclusions, i was just making a point.

the point is: you don't see female's running up on anyone and near killing them with their feet and hands. in fact, it's a rarity...unless we're talking cat fights here.




Wasn't necessarily addressing you with that statement.. but I'm sure moonkrockmushy would be glad to call me a misogynist.. in fact he already has.

As for women abuse being a rarity...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1854883/


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Invisiblemoonrockmushy
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Re: Feminism, why?????? [Re: Shroomism]
    #21860958 - 06/26/15 05:23 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

To be honest I am not prepared with any links, and don't claim to be able to meet your standards.  Your belligerence in stating that feminism is something other than what I believe it to be and what the dictionary states it as is where this conversation ends as far as I'm concerned.  Read into that however you like, but don't expect me to try to compete with your overwhelming "evidence".


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Feminism, why?????? [Re: Shroomism]
    #21860962 - 06/26/15 05:26 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

people and their action's do not change the meaning of the word, however, and you constantly go off on people claiming that if they're feminist's they must be evil, or something, because they're pretending to ignore misandry. they aren't, they just don't associate feminism with misandry.

Quote:

As for women abuse being a rarity...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1854883/




i am talking about random street violence, not domestic violence. relationships, especially bad one's, are inherently difficult, and people of either/or sex are privy to domestic violence, obviously. because relationship's rile idiot's up. though, that's not the same thing as say someone going and beating someone to a bloody pulp on the streets over a disagreement. men do that more than women, i do believe, because women don't tend to have a disagreement in public and then pummel eachother half to death. sure it happens, but it's not often enough to be even within the vicinity of how often it happen's between males. probably because of less testosterone and vasopressin, i'd presume.


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Re: Feminism, why?????? [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #21860990 - 06/26/15 05:31 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

moonrockmushy said:
To be honest I am not prepared with any links, and don't claim to be able to meet your standards.  Your belligerence in stating that feminism is something other than what I believe it to be and what the dictionary states it as is where this conversation ends as far as I'm concerned.  Read into that however you like, but don't expect me to try to compete with your overwhelming "evidence".




The 'evidence' is things feminism has actually done, in actual reality. Not what the dictionary defines it as. The ACTIONS that it takes in the real world.
Your belief about what feminism means to you, has nothing to do with it, this has nothing to do with "feelings". I am only dealing with facts here. So show me some facts.





I'll see about getting the dictionary definition of feminism changed.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Feminism, why?????? [Re: Shroomism]
    #21861000 - 06/26/15 05:35 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

not what feminism has actually done, but what feminist's have actually done. and what you're referring to is what MISANDRIST'S have done.

they can call themselves feminist's like i can call myself Mexican, but that doesn't mean that's what they are. it's a faulty syllogism.


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OfflineBeanhead
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Re: Feminism, why?????? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #21861010 - 06/26/15 05:39 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

In Somalia women have their vaginal lips scraped off with rusty knives/razors and then it gets sewn tight with only a very miniscule hole left to pee through and the girl is left for weeks in a house/hole somewhere so that they are kept clean/"sacred" for a male when they hit marrying age.

Waris Dirie

This is why I believe in feminism

I know that doesn't reflect our current society but for the reasons stated by Shroomism I think it's pretty invalid some people use feminism as scapegoat. Not all, there are some very valid ones aswell but it's a bit disheartening at times, truely.

Please don't look down on me now, I support and try to better myself each day. Activist/friend but it's a learning process.


Edited by Beanhead (06/26/15 05:46 PM)


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