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OfflineRabbit


Registered: 02/25/15
Posts: 163
Last seen: 5 years, 8 months
Grains Contaminated with bacteria before PC should I use them?
    #21854530 - 06/25/15 10:34 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

So I left My Grains to Soak in water for 30 hours and when I opened them they smelled bad and there was foam formed on the top so can I use them if I pc them or should I trow them away ?


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Invisible2shoes
The anti-agar
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Re: Grains Contaminated with bacteria before PC should I use them? [Re: Rabbit]
    #21854540 - 06/25/15 10:37 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I've re-PCed contaminated PF jars then re-inoculated them with good results.

I'd say give it a shot. What do you have to lose.:shrug:


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Invisible36fuckin5
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Registered: 08/11/03
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Loc: Diving into Mystical Territori...
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Re: Grains Contaminated with bacteria before PC should I use them? [Re: 2shoes]
    #21854824 - 06/25/15 11:53 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

That's what's supposed to happen.


--------------------
Redd Foxx said:
If you're offended I don't give a shit and don't come see me no more.

Pat The Bunny said:
A punk rock song won't ever change the world, but I can tell you about a couple that changed me.

bodhisatta said:
i recommend common sense and figuring it out.

These are the TEKs I use. They're all as cheap and easy as possible, just like your mom.


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InvisibleJuiceh
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Registered: 09/25/12
Posts: 3,208
Re: Grains Contaminated with bacteria before PC should I use them? [Re: 36fuckin5]
    #21854889 - 06/25/15 12:11 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

36fuckin5 said:
That's what's supposed to happen.



:whathesaid:

You soaked, bacterial endospores activated. This is what happens, its gonna get a funky smell that will intensify a bit if you soak longer. 3 Day soaked grains will be very pungent, but will still be usable. Now bring yours to a boil and strain, once surface dry, jar and PC!


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Edited by Juiceh (06/25/15 12:16 PM)


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Invisible36fuckin5
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Re: Grains Contaminated with bacteria before PC should I use them? [Re: Juiceh]
    #21854951 - 06/25/15 12:27 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Don't necessarily bring it to a boil. We don't know what kind of grain it is. I'm assuming WBS, which should never be boiled.


--------------------
Redd Foxx said:
If you're offended I don't give a shit and don't come see me no more.

Pat The Bunny said:
A punk rock song won't ever change the world, but I can tell you about a couple that changed me.

bodhisatta said:
i recommend common sense and figuring it out.

These are the TEKs I use. They're all as cheap and easy as possible, just like your mom.


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InvisibleBuck513

Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 5,682
Re: Grains Contaminated with bacteria before PC should I use them? [Re: 36fuckin5]
    #21855001 - 06/25/15 12:41 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

People always complain about wbs being starchy if boiled.

I've prepped hundreds of pounds of wbs, its all I use. I boil/simmer for maybe 10 minutes and i don't have problems.

I love wbs, but I think I'll be making a permanent transition to oats soon.


--------------------
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Enter the Ban Lottery


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InvisibleJuiceh
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Re: Grains Contaminated with bacteria before PC should I use them? [Re: 36fuckin5]
    #21855067 - 06/25/15 12:55 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

36fuckin5 said:
Don't necessarily bring it to a boil. We don't know what kind of grain it is. I'm assuming WBS, which should never be boiled.



After soaking my WBS I always bring it to a rolling boil and immediately strain it. Works just fine with no burst grains.


Quote:

Buck513 said:
People always complain about wbs being starchy if boiled.


I love wbs, but I think I'll be making a permanent transition to oats soon.




I think these people do 2 things that make their batches suck ass. Shitty job rinsing the WBS. And simmering the grains and bursting them rather than just bringing it to a boil and dumping in the strainer. I personally think the common rinsing method is very lacking, filling the pot with water and pouring it off. I use bucket screens and run water through the grains with a sink faucet on shower mode until the collection bucket underneath is full of clear water that is free of particulate.

I've also picked up a bunch of oats to switch over too after this last bag of WBS. I been using WBS for a really long time and want to cut a bit of extra effort out of the process.


--------------------
Trade List

How I make 15 lbs of casing in a 941. How I line 12 shoeboxes with 1 39gal bag. How I Deep Fry Cubes!
RogerRabbit said:You need a bigger pressure cooker for this hobby. RR


Edited by Juiceh (06/25/15 01:06 PM)


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OfflineRabbit


Registered: 02/25/15
Posts: 163
Last seen: 5 years, 8 months
Re: Grains Contaminated with bacteria before PC should I use them? [Re: Juiceh]
    #21855547 - 06/25/15 02:44 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Do I need to simmer it? I'll PC it tomorrow morning it will be 48h in water by then, today when I checked the grains have expanded a lot their volume is like more then twice which it was and the bacterial endospores are active what will be the purpouse of boiling/simmering if i am going to PC it ?The grains I am using are wheat, barley and some small round ones ,and some small thin ones I think its grass seed we feed our chickens with them I also have access to oat and other seeds but not rye should I mix them in future ?


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InvisibleJuiceh
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Registered: 09/25/12
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Re: Grains Contaminated with bacteria before PC should I use them? [Re: Rabbit]
    #21855810 - 06/25/15 03:59 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

The point of the after the soak boil is to allow you to steam dry the exterior of the grains in a strainer. Don't simmer, just bring the pot to a rolling boil and then dump it into the strainer. Once the grains are dry on the exterior from steaming off you load the jars and PC. If you don't steam dry you will have to air dry much longer, and if you don't dry the exterior you will most likely have pooling water in the bottom of your jars after PCing.


--------------------
Trade List

How I make 15 lbs of casing in a 941. How I line 12 shoeboxes with 1 39gal bag. How I Deep Fry Cubes!
RogerRabbit said:You need a bigger pressure cooker for this hobby. RR


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OfflineRabbit


Registered: 02/25/15
Posts: 163
Last seen: 5 years, 8 months
Re: Grains Contaminated with bacteria before PC should I use them? [Re: Juiceh]
    #21859771 - 06/26/15 12:11 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Fuck today I found that my pc is broken... so I guess I'll be doing fractional sterilization should I use these grains or should I prepare new ones ? Also do I need to know anything special about it ? I made my lids with 2 holes one with polyfill other with RTV silicone for injection will I have to cover them with foil for the fractional sterilization ?


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OfflineRabbit


Registered: 02/25/15
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Re: Grains Contaminated with bacteria before PC should I use them? [Re: Rabbit]
    #21859782 - 06/26/15 12:14 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Also some sources say fractional sterilization is boiling others steaming which one should I do ? And what is the success rate with it ?


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InvisibleMad Season
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Re: Grains Contaminated with bacteria before PC should I use them? [Re: Rabbit]
    #21859856 - 06/26/15 12:33 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I think it's both. Both boiling water and steam at atmospheric pressure should be the same temperature. 100C.

You have to boil for 8 hours though.


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OfflineFerather
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Registered: 03/19/15
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Re: Grains Contaminated with bacteria before PC should I use them? [Re: Mad Season]
    #21859919 - 06/26/15 12:48 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Pre soaking is the best way to get hardy endospores, which can survive high temperature cooking, to a point they die very easily.
Once fully hatched the bacteria is considerably easier to kill, max I have done with rice is 4 days.

Generally 48 hours kept warm should be enough, from my experience.
After 48 hours cook for 20 minutes to kill, then leave for another 48.

Once done pressure cook as normal.
Less smell and a 2 part process.


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OfflineRabbit


Registered: 02/25/15
Posts: 163
Last seen: 5 years, 8 months
Re: Grains Contaminated with bacteria before PC should I use them? [Re: Mad Season]
    #21859924 - 06/26/15 12:49 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Isn't this a different method you are talking about ? This is what I'll do I'll fill the pot with jars and water till its 1/2 the height of the jars and I'll w8 till it starts boiling the. I'll record 90 mins then I'll leave the jars in the water till tomorrow then I'll do it again for the following two days I'll also cover the jar lids with foil. Is there any kind of grain which has higher success with this method ?


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InvisibleBuck513

Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 5,682
Re: Grains Contaminated with bacteria before PC should I use them? [Re: Mad Season]
    #21859936 - 06/26/15 12:52 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

You don't want to soak grain in warm water.


--------------------
Fail to plan and you plan to fail.

Enter the Ban Lottery


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InvisibleMad Season
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Re: Grains Contaminated with bacteria before PC should I use them? [Re: Ferather]
    #21859943 - 06/26/15 12:54 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

That sounds like a ridiculous hassle for something you can't get rid of. No matter how much you try. Only way to kill endos is with a pc or boiling for 8 hours. Some speculate soaking actually has more endospores due to the higher concentration of bacteria during the soak. Certain Bacteria will always produce endospores. They just will make a higher concentration when it's feeling threatened.

Quote:

bodhisatta said:



clostridum butyricum from brewers grain(rye malt) it's very heat resistant because of the spores. it is responsible for the most part in the rancid smell if you let grains soak too long. it will survive the boil and is why your grains go bad and smell like puke and Greek feet feta if you don't sterilize them after your grain prep.

it forms endospores even culture on anaerobic plates with an abidance of nutrients. as you can see some subset of the population finds it appropriate to form endospores despite not having "bad conditions" as conditions get worse spore formation goes up. I would be nearly positive you end up with more endospores if you do a soak than if you skip a soak, either way these DO get killed by a PC in a sufficient cycle.





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How to shroomery like a pro! (Seriously, everyone read this!)
Improve your sterile techniques! (A comprehensive guide to agar)
Links upon links of literally EVERYTHING UP TO DATE

AMU Q&A
No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.


Edited by Mad Season (06/26/15 12:55 PM)


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Offlinespacechildo
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Re: Grains Contaminated with bacteria before PC should I use them? [Re: Buck513]
    #21859958 - 06/26/15 12:58 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

AFAIK brown rice doesnt even have endospores :shrug:

I soak my grains in warm water and even change the water half way through the soak. to new hot water.
then add coffee/gypsum after that.

the window we talk of in regards to sterilizing grains in the 2 weeks that we've knocked back endospores amongst others.
you prob. wont kill them all without doing some industrial size sterilization run anyway.


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InvisibleBuck513

Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 5,682
Re: Grains Contaminated with bacteria before PC should I use them? [Re: spacechildo]
    #21859965 - 06/26/15 01:01 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Well I guess it depends on the grain too.

I always soak in cold ass water. But I'm wanting to change to oats so I can skip the soaking and oats just seem all around bad ass


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Fail to plan and you plan to fail.

Enter the Ban Lottery


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OfflineRabbit


Registered: 02/25/15
Posts: 163
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Re: Grains Contaminated with bacteria before PC should I use them? [Re: Buck513]
    #21860023 - 06/26/15 01:14 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

So can I use rice grains for bulk ? Will i be able to shake them ?


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OfflineKizzle
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Re: Grains Contaminated with bacteria before PC should I use them? [Re: Buck513]
    #21860570 - 06/26/15 03:21 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Buck513 said:
People always complain about wbs being starchy if boiled.

I've prepped hundreds of pounds of wbs, its all I use. I boil/simmer for maybe 10 minutes and i don't have problems.

I love wbs, but I think I'll be making a permanent transition to oats soon.



I chalk it up to the varying WBS formulas.


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