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DividedQuantum
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Native American spirituality 1
#21849892 - 06/24/15 10:55 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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That thing the Indians had that one can't quite put one's finger on is this: they were spiritually superior to the white man, while living in a fabulously more personally and collectively meaningful cultural and psychological space. Clearly, one can just feel it, on occasion.
What are your thoughts on Native American spirituality and/or religion? How has it impacted you?
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BoomerMan420
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Yeah It's pretty cool but then again pretty pathetic because these inhabitants are basically nuisances to the Earth which could thrive so much more if we were willing to try. "I'm the Man with the plan in my hand, soon we can all play in sand..."
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sun child



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It is equal to all wisdom. 
Saw the peace, of oneness with life, nature, and all her powers,
Knew this was the power of life, the real being, the formative hours,
Sheltered and shaded, meditated, not jaded,
And felt heaven brightly with joy, as they did.
A dream and awake, a dream and awake,
An eternal cycle of love, life, do partake.
They lived as one life, flowing river endlessly,
And felt love and peace, joy and wisdom boundlessly.
They lived as one with nature, from the days of youth.
Knew that loving and caring for her, is the joy of truth.
They were and are a people - One People - same as we,
And carried Beauty's Song, for all the life to see.
They know of Oneness, and that wisdom, through it,
Shelters life in nature's heart, and they live and do it.
Their glory sings from every spring,
and every day they bring,
another heart to home, to rest,
by wisdom, ever so blessed.
-------------------- Innocent, Oldfield & Hegerland Julia Delaney, Bothy Band Rasta Girl, Sister Carol Genesis, Jorma K I Wish You Peace, Lawrence Laughing Do Your Thing, Moondog large . . music garden . . veryall peace them hiStarhouse - main Time Traveler's Guide
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BoomerMan420
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And then THEY.....
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sun child



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Re: Native American spirituality [Re: BoomerMan420]
#21849963 - 06/24/15 11:11 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Laugh 
as well they know, the laughing song 
laughter and play is the simple solution
animals do this all day - and if we follow,
all will restore to naturalness,
all restore the bountifulness.
-------------------- Innocent, Oldfield & Hegerland Julia Delaney, Bothy Band Rasta Girl, Sister Carol Genesis, Jorma K I Wish You Peace, Lawrence Laughing Do Your Thing, Moondog large . . music garden . . veryall peace them hiStarhouse - main Time Traveler's Guide
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once in a lifetime
sun child



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laugh and play, laugh and play - other animals do this all day; i feel they know life is worth, i feel the know how to save earth,
lap, lap it up
-------------------- Innocent, Oldfield & Hegerland Julia Delaney, Bothy Band Rasta Girl, Sister Carol Genesis, Jorma K I Wish You Peace, Lawrence Laughing Do Your Thing, Moondog large . . music garden . . veryall peace them hiStarhouse - main Time Traveler's Guide
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sun child



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i.e., go into nature and see the infinite;
the First People know this well, and many other wisdom.
old path white clouds.
-------------------- Innocent, Oldfield & Hegerland Julia Delaney, Bothy Band Rasta Girl, Sister Carol Genesis, Jorma K I Wish You Peace, Lawrence Laughing Do Your Thing, Moondog large . . music garden . . veryall peace them hiStarhouse - main Time Traveler's Guide
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Deviate
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native american spirituality interests me greatly. I am wanting to get this book from the native american church called "the trinity and the always". I am very interested in learning more about how some Native Americans have genuinely embraced Christianity and worked it into their own traditions.
In college I took a class on native american religion and we read a book called "lamedeer: seeker of visions". It was my favorite of all the books I had to read in college and I still remember some of the lessons I learned from that book. I remember in the end he said that enlightenment for the native american meant to have all of nature in them and to be in all of nature. I loved that, especially because I feel like this sense of interconnectedness with nature and the earth to be lacking in most/all of the world's great religions.
If anyone knows other books like this, writeen by actual native american shaman/medicine men rather than books written about them, i would be interested in hearing about them.
Edited by Deviate (06/24/15 10:12 PM)
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DividedQuantum
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Re: Native American spirituality [Re: Deviate]
#21852912 - 06/24/15 10:29 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Very interesting, Deviate. I like your point about interconnectedness.
Yes, I know of a couple of good books: the first is The Autobiography of a Winnebago Indian which is a first person, autobiographical account translated by anthropologist Paul Radin. Another very excellent book on Indian religion is by a prestigious scholar named Joseph Epes Brown called Teaching Spirits: Understanding Native American Religious Traditions. Technically, not by an Indian, although Black Elk was so enamored of him that he adopted him as a son, so I think it's worth a look .
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Deviate
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thank you, i will look into those books.
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DividedQuantum
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Re: Native American spirituality [Re: Deviate]
#21852947 - 06/24/15 10:40 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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You are most welcome.
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BeyondScience


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Native Americans had good art.
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sun child



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Re: Native American spirituality [Re: Deviate]
#21854532 - 06/25/15 10:36 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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healing prayer
Cherokee Traveler's Greeting
I will draw thorns from your feet. We will walk the White Path of Life together. Like a brother of my own blood, I will love you. I will wipe tears from your eyes. When you are sad, I will put your aching heart to rest.and, http://www.firstpeople.us/articles/Black-Elk-Speaks/Black-Elk-Speaks-Index.htmla book
-------------------- Innocent, Oldfield & Hegerland Julia Delaney, Bothy Band Rasta Girl, Sister Carol Genesis, Jorma K I Wish You Peace, Lawrence Laughing Do Your Thing, Moondog large . . music garden . . veryall peace them hiStarhouse - main Time Traveler's Guide
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DividedQuantum
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Re: Native American spirituality [Re: Deviate]
#21856591 - 06/25/15 06:52 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said: I remember in the end he said that enlightenment for the native american meant to have all of nature in them and to be in all of nature.
It just occurred to me, is this not (at least in part) how the Buddhists feel about enlightenment, as well?
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Deviate
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I don't know, I am sure there are some Buddhists who feel that way and I am sure all the enlightened Buddhists come to that understanding.
The issue for me about Buddhist enlightenment is I feel that Buddhist teachings often lead to a sort of "empty" enlightenment. If you follow their teachings you can become empty of self and thus self-realized or aware of yourself as void.
But according to teachers like Jan Esseman, this is not full enlightenment and while it can be peaceful, it lacks the love and the bliss of true enlightenment.
So my theory is that these teachings are not well suited to the westerner, because this sort of state of being is actually very unnerving to the mindset of the westerner. It is completely at odds with everything our culture has taught us to value since birth and is not in the least bit emotionally fullfilling.
Thus enlightenment for the westerner, must be heart centered and tempered by love, love being the only way the westerner can deal with the horror of losing his individuality. This is the reason Christianity was intended to be the religion for westerners. In Christianity rather than focusing on descontructing the ego, we focus on loving God until we love God so much that it is no longer seen as a great loss to give ourself up. When westerners follow Buddhist teachings, they often reach a sort of mind enlightenment but without the opening of the heart and this can be perceived as frightening, horrifying, creepy, terrible, etc to the dying ego self. I recall reading a trip report on this forum where the poster claimed to have seen angels blocking westerners from reaching enlightenment. You might wonder why angels would be blocking people from something so spiritually good but the reason is that they are protecting them from seeing truths about reality which they are not emotionally prepared to handle.
Eastern cultures are very different and do not view reality like the westerner, thus they are much better able to handle states of expanded awareness without risking their sanity or feeling like they are all alone. Eastern cultures have traditionally recognized these people as going through awakenings and provided supportive environments for them, whereas in the west they are considered insane and put on medication or locked up.
So I see the Buddhist approach as being more one of seeing through, seeing through illusion to find truth, whereas the native american approach is to find harmony, find harmony with nature and then truth will flow out of that. More similar to Toaism than Buddhism in my opinion.
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sun child



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Re: Native American spirituality [Re: Deviate]
#21856914 - 06/25/15 08:05 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Keep searching - if you are feeling like it; there are some enlightened Buddhist teachers who emphasize love very much.
'Which is the stronger of these, love or the sun?
The warmth of love is deeper and stronger than sunlight. The sun sets. It can burn you, but loving compassion never does harm. It is beyond any comparison.'
- Garchen Rinpoche
'Your first love is not your first love; it is not your last love. It is just love. It is one with everything.'- Thay
-------------------- Innocent, Oldfield & Hegerland Julia Delaney, Bothy Band Rasta Girl, Sister Carol Genesis, Jorma K I Wish You Peace, Lawrence Laughing Do Your Thing, Moondog large . . music garden . . veryall peace them hiStarhouse - main Time Traveler's Guide
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sun child



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By the way I wished to also say, about Black Elk, his words and teachings are also on this site: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Black_Elk
-------------------- Innocent, Oldfield & Hegerland Julia Delaney, Bothy Band Rasta Girl, Sister Carol Genesis, Jorma K I Wish You Peace, Lawrence Laughing Do Your Thing, Moondog large . . music garden . . veryall peace them hiStarhouse - main Time Traveler's Guide
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Deviate
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Oh yes, I know, I am not putting down Buddhism or Buddhist teachers in any way. I am simply saying that a lot of traditional Buddhist teachings, are not well suited to the westerner. There is also a big difference between studiyng with an enlightened Buddhist teacher, and getting a book out of the library about Buddhism. Do you see what I mean?
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sun child



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Re: Native American spirituality [Re: Deviate]
#21856980 - 06/25/15 08:24 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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I understand everything you are saying, yes. 
One part of it is that Buddhists often don't put on airs - sometimes they do - but if they're enlightened, they usually do not. Why? Because there is no need to.
Buddhists are generally kind, compassionate, patient, and filled with joy - if they have reached enlightenment, which may be found through any path.
One of the things is that nothing needs to be done - to reach the joyful and boundless peace, one needs not do anything special -
There are many aspects of skillful action, in dealing with life and particulars, yet letting go of them is the basic method of practice.
-------------------- Innocent, Oldfield & Hegerland Julia Delaney, Bothy Band Rasta Girl, Sister Carol Genesis, Jorma K I Wish You Peace, Lawrence Laughing Do Your Thing, Moondog large . . music garden . . veryall peace them hiStarhouse - main Time Traveler's Guide
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deff
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Re: Native American spirituality [Re: Deviate] 1
#21857241 - 06/25/15 09:13 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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i think buddhism does have some good teachings on love - the teachings on the four immeasurables are nice (immeasurable love, compassion, sympathetic joy, and equanimity) as well as the metta meditations available.
however I am inclined to agree with you Deviate in that Buddhism paints a very bleak view of samsara as something inherently permeated with suffering and not having a shred of happiness to be found within it. in that sense then, there is a much stronger emphasis on compassion, on ending suffering i find, then there is on increasing love and joy and celebrating our existence. this strong emphasis on focusing on the negative and trying to remedy it i think can contribute to a certain unease and distancing from one's life that a path focused more on love and the positive remedies.
so as someone who practiced in a buddhist tradition for a number of years, i do find it quite refreshing and uplifting now to embrace a more positive view of life - one in which our experience is benevolently crafted to maximize our learning, growth, and expansion in this reality for our highest good. that there is continual guidance at all times and that life is not a tragic mistake but rather a spiritual school - what Matt Kahn calls the 'Angel Academy' 
that said, the seemingly enlightened Buddhist masters I've come across seem extremely loving and joyous in their demeanour, it is more the aspiring unrealized buddhists that may be more out of balance that way imo
also - your recent emphasis on incorporating the natural world into your spiritual practice i think is quite a healthy one 
as for the OP, I haven't really had much exposure myself to Native American spirituality so far in my life, though the little i have had i've generally appreciated
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DividedQuantum
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Re: Native American spirituality [Re: deff]
#21857267 - 06/25/15 09:17 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Very interesting post, deff.
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sun child



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Buddhists are exactly like any other people, deff : they are light.
when they are happy, they are happy,
when they are in love, they are in love.
when they're peaceful, they're peaceful. and so on.
any statement about what Buddhists are necessarily reflects the heart of the one saying it -
at its most essential, Buddhists are the same as everything - and everyone - else.
There are mistaken Buddhists, and there are forsaken Buddhists,
The same as there are of every other group. It makes no difference. Human beings are human beings, and they are all capable of love, of life, and of everything else.
-------------------- Innocent, Oldfield & Hegerland Julia Delaney, Bothy Band Rasta Girl, Sister Carol Genesis, Jorma K I Wish You Peace, Lawrence Laughing Do Your Thing, Moondog large . . music garden . . veryall peace them hiStarhouse - main Time Traveler's Guide
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sun child



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To elaborate,
to anticipate,
we are love filled - we Buddhists are. we don't like people saying we have no love.
The end.
-------------------- Innocent, Oldfield & Hegerland Julia Delaney, Bothy Band Rasta Girl, Sister Carol Genesis, Jorma K I Wish You Peace, Lawrence Laughing Do Your Thing, Moondog large . . music garden . . veryall peace them hiStarhouse - main Time Traveler's Guide
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deff
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i agree though i do think there is a difference in the different spiritual paths in terms of what is emphasized in the teachings, and this then is often reflected by those who take the teachings to heart. there is certainly much beauty in buddhist teachings, but i have found that the view that a strong belief in the core tenets of the buddhist path creates, both in myself when i was a practicing buddhist and in others i observed at the same time, has certain weaknesses in my opinion. that said, i feel that every codified system has weaknesses if one adheres solely to the views it espouses without finding out for themselves, from their heart, what their own truth about life is i'm not saying by any means that buddhists cannot be loving or happy - just critiquing buddhism as a spiritual path there are many buddhist teachers and practitioners that radiate tremendous love, as is the case with all spiritual paths
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sun child



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.
some of us are invincible -
not all of us are;
to wish to -
gently,
amend
is not out of wish to cause harm,
but merely to prevent harm.
thank you and with light.
joy.
-------------------- Innocent, Oldfield & Hegerland Julia Delaney, Bothy Band Rasta Girl, Sister Carol Genesis, Jorma K I Wish You Peace, Lawrence Laughing Do Your Thing, Moondog large . . music garden . . veryall peace them hiStarhouse - main Time Traveler's Guide
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sun child



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to say things like 'there's no love in buddhism,' which is a simplification - but essentially the essence of the message -
is merely a painful thought, feeling, image - that is how it reads - i may be mistaken.
it feels that way to me -
i agree with you completely, deff - to me you are like a spiritual godbrother
yet i see some of dev's words as. . . coming from pain. i cannot but feel that pain as my own.
empathic considerations are primary in buddhism - by understanding that others matter just as myself - or are connected, etc. etc.
then i feel what they feel - etc. etc.
-------------------- Innocent, Oldfield & Hegerland Julia Delaney, Bothy Band Rasta Girl, Sister Carol Genesis, Jorma K I Wish You Peace, Lawrence Laughing Do Your Thing, Moondog large . . music garden . . veryall peace them hiStarhouse - main Time Traveler's Guide
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sun child



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buddhists are light,
all beings are - some did come from heaven to come here. . . we all were there. . .
anyway - ya if i say that to buddhists, they don't understand, so i mostly don't - that is not really a shortcoming though, it is just their fulfilling their dharma, they are upholding Dharma's law by their lives. and doing much good, most of the time.
-------------------- Innocent, Oldfield & Hegerland Julia Delaney, Bothy Band Rasta Girl, Sister Carol Genesis, Jorma K I Wish You Peace, Lawrence Laughing Do Your Thing, Moondog large . . music garden . . veryall peace them hiStarhouse - main Time Traveler's Guide
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sun child



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i found this quote by Vivekananda that expresses it nicely:
'All who have actually attained any real religious experience never wrangle over the form in which the different religions are expressed. They know that the soul of all religions is the same and so they have no quarrel with anybody just because he or she does not speak in the same tongue.'
-------------------- Innocent, Oldfield & Hegerland Julia Delaney, Bothy Band Rasta Girl, Sister Carol Genesis, Jorma K I Wish You Peace, Lawrence Laughing Do Your Thing, Moondog large . . music garden . . veryall peace them hiStarhouse - main Time Traveler's Guide
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sun child



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perhaps i was incorrect, to mention what i said - but as i have healed from all pain, many years ago, and spent a whole lifetime free of it, in peace and joy, i would be remiss in not saying, it is possible to be in such a way healed.
further, i know that who we are - the soul, is free of pain forever; that climactic changes or temporal experiences do not reach who we really are.
i know as well that wrangling over things, is not generally helpful to life -
and as of pain - part of the path of healing is to let it be, to heal itself - not continuing to say, 'i have been injured,'
-- buddha said this, yet there's another way to express it. . .
one that may be more illustrative, it came from a gambler;
bill 'bulldog' sykes said it,
bear with me, it's worth it -
he said - (and someone enlightened him to this) 'when someone asks you how you are doing, say, 'wonderful, wonderful' - if you are not good, don't share it - why? because 95% of whom you say it, won't care, and the other 5% will be damned glad to hear it.
and one might say - yes, but this was from a gambler. but the point is - it's true. And he is saying the same thing - in a way - that Buddha was saying - if you remove completely, the thought, 'i was defeated, robbed, or hurt,' you banish hatred forever.
that's basically very precisely the words.
now it's not that one should not express something - but this is just not true, the types of things he's saying. they're not at all or even close.
now - we can see that the view that people care isn't fully on - people care, even if they don't know it. . .
humanity has been evolving toward empathy for many centuries, many thousands of years.
or - we've always had it. . whichever way you want to look at it.
the point is - get healed first - then go exploring. but get to health and peace first. . . and that means perfect health, and perfect peace - and yes, that does include a total breaking away from samsaric views. . .
for samsara holds us back - and it's mostly with views, such as views relating to health, to humanity, to peace, to life, to any number of other things - that are false.
the true viewpoint is that everything is possible - all infinite good under the sun is possible - because we are alive.
and buddhists teach this as well as anyone, as they are able.
the main, essential point is that all paths are valid. all beings are valid and sacred --- all beings are light.
when this is seen - all disruption fades, disappears -
as long as humans create distinctions of value - such as 'this person is great as opposed to. .' there will be wrong actions - as a result of wrong view.
anytime we set someone up as better - but it's not that so much, anytime we set someone up as inferior -- then the door to harm is being opened.
so I am saying - shut that door.
talking about religions is all very fine and good - but as a practitioner of Buddhism, as a Buddhist, as a Buddha, i do find it of value to - once again, as gently as possible - attempt to share -
erm,
no
there is infinite love in all hearts.
-------------------- Innocent, Oldfield & Hegerland Julia Delaney, Bothy Band Rasta Girl, Sister Carol Genesis, Jorma K I Wish You Peace, Lawrence Laughing Do Your Thing, Moondog large . . music garden . . veryall peace them hiStarhouse - main Time Traveler's Guide
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once in a lifetime
sun child



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there are 2 things:
infinite argument, and infinite peace, life, bliss, love, joy, faith, and so forth.
and then there is 1.
-------------------- Innocent, Oldfield & Hegerland Julia Delaney, Bothy Band Rasta Girl, Sister Carol Genesis, Jorma K I Wish You Peace, Lawrence Laughing Do Your Thing, Moondog large . . music garden . . veryall peace them hiStarhouse - main Time Traveler's Guide
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once in a lifetime
sun child



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pain can be healed when you let it go with love.
notice how kind-hearted, light-filled and love-filled buddhists relate to christians.
see.
they do so with love.
-------------------- Innocent, Oldfield & Hegerland Julia Delaney, Bothy Band Rasta Girl, Sister Carol Genesis, Jorma K I Wish You Peace, Lawrence Laughing Do Your Thing, Moondog large . . music garden . . veryall peace them hiStarhouse - main Time Traveler's Guide
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Deviate
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Quote:
once in a lifetime said: to say things like 'there's no love in buddhism,' which is a simplification - but essentially the essence of the message -
is merely a painful thought, feeling, image - that is how it reads - i may be mistaken.
it feels that way to me -
i agree with you completely, deff - to me you are like a spiritual godbrother
yet i see some of dev's words as. . . coming from pain. i cannot but feel that pain as my own.
empathic considerations are primary in buddhism - by understanding that others matter just as myself - or are connected, etc. etc.
then i feel what they feel - etc. etc.
Some of my words do come from pain, because I have not yet healed from all pain. I am in that process now and confronting some of my own deepest pain.
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sun child



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Re: Native American spirituality [Re: Deviate]
#21857981 - 06/25/15 11:39 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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love to you brother, i feel it all equally, w/ all my heart may you be healed,
but 1 thing is - letting go of the thoughts of it, that it has happened, can be very useful - that is, letting it heal of its own
especially since, all are equal,
an',
ya,
anyway - friendship, peace and joy to you dear friend, may you always have dreams of light,
and glad tidings.
see you another day.
-------------------- Innocent, Oldfield & Hegerland Julia Delaney, Bothy Band Rasta Girl, Sister Carol Genesis, Jorma K I Wish You Peace, Lawrence Laughing Do Your Thing, Moondog large . . music garden . . veryall peace them hiStarhouse - main Time Traveler's Guide
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