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JohnDoeKENTUCKY
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Registered: 06/17/15
Posts: 47
Loc: KENTUCKY
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
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Wondering about why 4 inoculation holes
#21848177 - 06/23/15 10:29 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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(1) So I was wondering when using rye seed as substrate, to inoculate it using a spore syringe, why do people put 4 holes for injection rather than one if everything gonna get shaken up and mixed up any way?
(2) Also I need to know if inoculated rye seed jars need any air exchange (via un tightened mason jar or filter tape over inoculation points) at any point during their incubation?
(3) Can I just used duct tape to cover innoc. Points of should I use filter tape? My filter tape keeps getting wet in the PC even though I'm covering it with tin foil, after all wet filter tape is useless cuz bacteria can travel cross it.
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MonkeyJesusFresco
am i suspended in agar?



Registered: 10/09/12
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Re: Wondering about why 4 inoculation holes [Re: JohnDoeKENTUCKY] 1
#21848217 - 06/23/15 10:41 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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use the search engine. dude, I'm very sorry bro. check my sig maybe?
that's a haiku btw
-------------------- LAGM v 2.024 - endo cabendo
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Myconin
Mushroom Ninja



Registered: 05/11/15
Posts: 308
Loc: The shadows...
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1 - to allow the most opportunities for myc to grow.
2 - yes, that's why we have air filters on the jar lids.
3 - I'm confused by this question. It sounds like you're knocking up jars then pc'ing them after, which is backwards procedure.
-------------------- "No great mind has ever existed without a touch of madness" - Aristotle "I have just three things to teach: Simplicity, Patience, Compassion. These three are your greatest treasures." - Lao Tzu "You've just gotta keep on keepin' on, man. You can't have 'no' in your heart" - Joe Dirt ThirtyCigarettes said: "All I know is every other thread I see in the Cultivation forum goes like this: QUESTION > ANSWER > DIFFERENT ANSWER > ARGUE > TC COMES AND CLEARS IT UP"
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SteveRogers
gandy dancer


Registered: 10/24/06
Posts: 3,450
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Re: Wondering about why 4 inoculation holes [Re: Myconin]
#21848485 - 06/23/15 11:48 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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1. They don't, many have one SHIP and one 1/4" hole for GE through a filter.
2. YES, they need GE. Keep the lid tight. The gases will exchange via the hole with the filter on it.
3. Do not use duct tape. MicroPore tape may work, but an SFD would be better. Cover the lid in PC. Remove and discard tinfoil. Inoculate. Do not incubate. Room temperature. Ambient light.
Any of the TEKs in a Trusted Cultivators sig or grow log will do you proud.
-------------------- "General, I am loyal to nothing......except The Dream"
Edited by SteveRogers (06/23/15 11:51 PM)
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Machiavelliavore
Vermiculite Hater



Registered: 12/08/14
Posts: 3,038
Loc: The Sporetorn States
Last seen: 3 months, 20 days
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Quote:
JohnDoeKENTUCKY said: (1) So I was wondering when using rye seed as substrate, to inoculate it using a spore syringe, why do people put 4 holes for injection rather than one if everything gonna get shaken up and mixed up any way? You should not have 4 holes. This is a PF tek lid. Since it's difficult or impossible to shake PF cakes and they are typically noc'd with shitty spore inoculant, getting it all over those PFtits is importante. For grains such as Rye or Rye Grass Seed, you should only have a single hole, since shaking removes the need for such thorough inoculation.
(2) Also I need to know if inoculated rye seed jars need any air exchange (via un tightened mason jar or filter tape over inoculation points) at any point during their incubation? Typically yes. You can get away with none if you use a powerful inoculation method that results in extremely fast colonization.
(3) Can I just used duct tape to cover innoc. Points of should I use filter tape? My filter tape keeps getting wet in the PC even though I'm covering it with tin foil, after all wet filter tape is useless cuz bacteria can travel cross it. If you don't have a still air box, you should either stuff the hole with polyfill, which you can inject through and protects against contams, or use a synthetic or tyvek disk with RTV silicon ontop as an injection port. You could also just make sure your foil lids are TIGHT during the PC run and use no hole cover, then, with all your windows shut in still air conditions, inject through your hole, and slap a piece of micropore over it ASAP. It's pretty ghetto but it will probably work
If you do have an air box, just cut an appropriately sized disc of postal tyvek (priority evelope) and put it between your lid and your ring, and pop the top in your airbox and give it two quick squirts down opposite walls.
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I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister. I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave. I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent. Triggered yet? Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."
No, this does not look right...
Edited by Machiavelliavore (06/24/15 12:26 AM)
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MUSHmania
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People don't use 4 holes when knocking up grain. That's only for pf tek, and yes that's to spread inoc points. You need more holes in a pf jar because you can't shake them. With grain after you knock them up, you shake it....that distributes the inoc points
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Machiavelliavore
Vermiculite Hater



Registered: 12/08/14
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Re: Wondering about why 4 inoculation holes [Re: MUSHmania]
#21848836 - 06/24/15 02:55 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Just to be clear since he's new, you shake after your spores germinate into thick white stripes, not immediately after injecting spores.
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I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister. I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave. I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent. Triggered yet? Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."
No, this does not look right...
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Buck513

Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 5,682
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Quote:
Machiavelliavore said: Just to be clear since he's new, you shake after your spores germinate into thick white stripes, not immediately after injecting spores.
Uhh, no you dont.
There's already 10s if not 100s of millions of spores in the amount of solution you squirted into the jars, shaking them after inoculation is only beneficial.
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Machiavelliavore
Vermiculite Hater



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Re: Wondering about why 4 inoculation holes [Re: Buck513]
#21848852 - 06/24/15 03:03 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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It probably works either way but I believe germinate and shake is extremely standard, the idea being that by keeping spores clustered, they are more likely to connect with other spores. Probably also a good idea in that any contam in the syringe will have an obscene number of spores germinate next to it, rather than distributing that contam which would then have more room to grow before having to fight mushroom mycellium.
Honestly I would never noc an entire quart with MS spore solution. I'd much rather do a pint or half pint, then G2G.
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I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister. I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave. I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent. Triggered yet? Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."
No, this does not look right...
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Buck513

Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 5,682
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That's just the thing. There's already 10s or 100s of million of spores in there to connect with each other. Shaking it ain't gonna do a damn thing.
Try testing this out for yourself...get some jars, shake half and don't shake half.
I already know what the results will be lol
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Buck513

Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 5,682
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Quote:
Machiavelliavore said: Probably also a good idea in that any contam in the syringe will have an obscene number of spores germinate next to it, rather than distributing that contam which would then have more room to grow before having to fight mushroom mycellium.

I'm just now returning from a ban, so I better let this one go lol
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JohnDoeKENTUCKY
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Registered: 06/17/15
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so when I PC the jars with grain would it be good to put a tyvek filter under jar band, and then just a small innoc point with micro pore tape put on it after I take the jar out of PC? Hole should be small (nail hole) or big (1/4") that i put micropore over? And after I use a spore syringe to innoc the jar do I cover the hole? Lastly do I put the foil over jar after innoc? Thanks
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SteveRogers
gandy dancer


Registered: 10/24/06
Posts: 3,450
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If you really insist on using Tyvek
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/10628004/fpart/1/vc/1
Just for shits he even does a four hole pf style lid in the same manner. A waste of time/ware on drill bit/RTV silicone in my opinion but there it is if it makes you sleep better while your jars colonize. That many injections in one jar really only increases the number of contamination vectors.
I am certainly no Citric (a legend), but I feel SFD's would perform better than postal Tyvek.
Good luck to you.
-------------------- "General, I am loyal to nothing......except The Dream"
Edited by SteveRogers (06/24/15 12:15 PM)
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T-Funkadelic
Hepatitis G



Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 11,392
Loc: 2535 W Fairmont Ave MD 21223
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When using multi spore's I shake my grain jars at 20-30% colonization.
Quote: For many years we have known you should not shake after inoculating with spores.RR
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Buck513

Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 5,682
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Re: Using types for filter, air box? [Re: T-Funkadelic]
#21850235 - 06/24/15 12:26 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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RR has been right as many times as he's been wrong. You want me to start citing some 10yr old quotes from RR that is complete nonsense?
Has anyone tried a side by side comparison on shaking and not? I know I have, but I'm all ears if someone wants to chime in
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shroomyaxn



Registered: 11/13/11
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Re: Using types for filter, air box? [Re: Buck513]
#21850406 - 06/24/15 01:07 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Buck513 said: RR has been right as many times as he's been wrong. You want me to start citing some 10yr old quotes from RR that is complete nonsense?
I call bullshit on this.
Facts below:
Quote:
TranscendingLife said: Do not shake any grain jars after inoculating with MS. If inoculating w/ LC, agar wedges or G2G, shake well after inoculation. Then shake again around 20-50% colonization, except for G2Gs. G2Gs don't get shaken after the initial shake to distribute the colonized grains.
Quote:
TranscendingLife said: Don't shake after inoculating w/ MS. You'll scatter the spores too much and they'll have a harder time germinating. You shake @ 20-40% that's it.
There are plenty more posts from trusted cultivates stating the same exact thing as above.
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Buck513

Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 5,682
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Re: Using types for filter, air box? [Re: shroomyaxn]
#21850413 - 06/24/15 01:09 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Seriously, if you think RR hasn't been wrong countless times then you just simply don't know what you're talking about.
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Buck513

Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 5,682
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Re: Using types for filter, air box? [Re: Buck513]
#21850428 - 06/24/15 01:12 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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And citing tl? Yeah, he's a cool dude with lots of good stuff.
Try citing someone that's actually active...
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Green Bastard
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Re: Using types for filter, air box? [Re: shroomyaxn]
#21850429 - 06/24/15 01:12 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Thread with a side by side comparison, would be appropriate, right about now.... Guess volume of spores injected would be a huge factor...
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T-Funkadelic
Hepatitis G



Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 11,392
Loc: 2535 W Fairmont Ave MD 21223
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Re: Using types for filter, air box? [Re: Buck513]
#21850441 - 06/24/15 01:15 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well, RR and most of the TC's seem to agree from what I've read.
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Buck513

Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 5,682
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Re: Using types for filter, air box? [Re: T-Funkadelic]
#21850453 - 06/24/15 01:17 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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I could be wrong, but when I did a side by side comparison, every single jar I shook had more growth
I'm trying to wrap my head around if there's 10s and 100s of million of spores in the jar, how is a shake going to scatter them too much...
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T-Funkadelic
Hepatitis G



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Re: Using types for filter, air box? [Re: Buck513]
#21850469 - 06/24/15 01:21 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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I would like to see a side by side compression with one cc per qt jar.
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Edited by T-Funkadelic (06/24/15 02:14 PM)
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Green Bastard
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Re: Using types for filter, air box? [Re: Buck513]
#21850482 - 06/24/15 01:23 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Buck513 said:
Has anyone tried a side by side comparison on shaking and not? I know I have, but I'm all ears if someone wants to chime in
I agree with not being a sheeple. Those who just parrot others aren't advancing the field in any way.
So, your side by side showed an initial shake, after MS inoculation, was just as effective? What was the volume of liquid that you injected? Jar size? Rye, WBS, or oats?
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spacechildo
proletarians rise up



Registered: 01/24/13
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Loc: Babylon
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Re: Using types for filter, air box? [Re: Buck513]
#21850494 - 06/24/15 01:26 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Buck513 said: I could be wrong, but when I did a side by side comparison, every single jar I shook had more growth
I'm trying to wrap my head around if there's 10s and 100s of million of spores in the jar, how is a shake going to scatter them too much...
you dont wanna use that much spore solution in your jars or that much spores into your syringes.
not shaking after inoc is good practice, you wanna shake at 30% anyway.
It'd be real foolish to disregard everything RR has done here just because he as many others has changed his stance on things over the yrs.
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Buck513

Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 5,682
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Re: Using types for filter, air box? [Re: Green Bastard]
#21850502 - 06/24/15 01:28 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'm a wbs whore.
It was quart jars that I put like .5cc in each jar. Perhaps a little less.
Another good thing to do is not just hold someone's words like its truth. Try it for yourself, experiment, etc. Do you know how many things have been proved wrong by not listening solely to what others say, and trying it for yourself?
Im willing to bet this is another example. Everyone reads its not good to shake after ms inoc, so why test it out?
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Buck513

Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 5,682
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Re: Using types for filter, air box? [Re: spacechildo]
#21850514 - 06/24/15 01:30 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
spacechildo said:
Quote:
Buck513 said: I could be wrong, but when I did a side by side comparison, every single jar I shook had more growth
I'm trying to wrap my head around if there's 10s and 100s of million of spores in the jar, how is a shake going to scatter them too much...
you dont wanna use that much spore solution in your jars or that much spores into your syringes.
not shaking after inoc is good practice, you wanna shake at 30% anyway.
It'd be real foolish to disregard everything RR has done here just because he as many others has changed his stance on things over the yrs.
Well according to bod there can be billions of spores on a print/syringe. Soo...wouldn't it be kinda hard not to get that many spores?
And no, I never said that. RR is a great guy and I'm sad he left, but the way some people hold his word like it came from god is foolish. My only point was RR is human, like the rest of us. Don't expect 100% of what you hear to be true. Regardless of who's saying it
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mush madness
absorbing everything



Registered: 05/22/15
Posts: 252
Loc: Brazil
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Re: Using types for filter, air box? [Re: Buck513]
#21850521 - 06/24/15 01:33 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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I have done a side by side with 1 cc MS on rye
I can say with a MS I now shake once (and only once) at about 30%
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spacechildo
proletarians rise up



Registered: 01/24/13
Posts: 19,243
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Re: Using types for filter, air box? [Re: Buck513]
#21850531 - 06/24/15 01:34 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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1 print can easily make 50 syringes and as I said you want as few spores as possible in your syringe for the cleanest possible solution.
Quote:
Buck513 said: RR has been right as many times as he's been wrong.
this is what I was refering to. 1, its not true and 2, isn't this word for word exactly what azur says? so you dont want people quoting rr but parroting azur is OK?
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Green Bastard
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Re: Using types for filter, air box? [Re: spacechildo]
#21850546 - 06/24/15 01:40 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
spacechildo said: 1 print can easily make 50 syringes and as I said you want as few spores as possible in your syringe for the cleanest possible solution.
Quote:
Buck513 said: RR has been right as many times as he's been wrong.
this is what I was refering to. 1, its not true and 2, isn't this word for word exactly what azur says? so you dont want people quoting rr but parroting azur is OK? 
You know that's "comparing apples to oranges", eh?
He didn't say don't quote RR. Just don't treat every word as gospel.
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Buck513

Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 5,682
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Re: Using types for filter, air box? [Re: spacechildo]
#21850547 - 06/24/15 01:40 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yeah, I seen him say that a couple days ago. But it is true. I used to worship RR, then when I first started growing and was quoting him on things people ripped me a new asshole cause I didn't know what I was talking about lol. I'm aware spores can go a very long way, but really I don't think many people will make 50 syringes from a print. I think we can agree whatever you're using, there's a lot more spores in there than you need.
If you think I don't like RR you're wrong. As I said before, my only point, was to not just take everyone at their word. Even RR. Test things out for yourselves and experiment
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spacechildo
proletarians rise up



Registered: 01/24/13
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Re: Using types for filter, air box? [Re: spacechildo]
#21850614 - 06/24/15 01:58 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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yeah just throwing out quotes isnt considered good debating, especially when people are new and dont quite get what they're quoting. but saying RR is wrong as much as he's right just doesnt sit right with me, that would mean there's 20k+ bad info posts from RR here. He like many others are allowed to change his stance over the yrs and of course he's just human and has bad days just like the rest of us.
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matsc
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Re: Using types for filter, air box? [Re: Buck513]
#21850623 - 06/24/15 02:02 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Just for clarity sake, dispersing spores wouldn't hinder germination, but it would slow down the process by which the monokaryon hyphae meet one another and form stable dikaryons.
Also, given that spores are mildly hydrophobic, they would tend to form clusters of several spores in water solutions, given no other variables (I will admit here that I have never worked with Psilocybe spores in water without adding surfactant so this is an assumption).
Having never works with spores in grain I have no idea how much shaking would or would not affect colonization rates, but bare logic would suggest it would speed things up overall, though it may take longer for pretty visible hyphae to really appear. Worth an experiment if anyone is bored. Just dont forget your controls!
Hmm... agar plate, streak spores for isolation, pull individual spores and place directly on one another, 1mm apart, 1cm apart, and track germination time and plasmogamy time... But would need to do everything in multiples to assure you arent buggered by mating type... Hrm, wish I had some Basidiomycete spores to play with in lab, this could get convoluted.
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Buck513

Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 5,682
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Re: Using types for filter, air box? [Re: spacechildo]
#21850627 - 06/24/15 02:03 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well, if you want to get THAT technical, I doubt all 40k+ posts are cult related, and offering advice.
But no, I'm not saying 50% of his posts are trash, and 50% are good. That's just taking it too literal.
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Green Bastard
Stranger

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Re: Using types for filter, air box? [Re: Buck513]
#21850739 - 06/24/15 02:28 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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And, not to bash RR, cuz he's an amazing Man, who has done much for mycology, but many (lots!) of those 40,000 posts are just him re re re re repeating himself....
When my Dad was given The Mushroom Cultivator, as a gift from one of the authors, the first year that it was published, it was an excellent resource. Much of it is still valid, but imagine where we'd be now, if we were still just following Paul and Jeff's words as gospel?
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T-Funkadelic
Hepatitis G



Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 11,392
Loc: 2535 W Fairmont Ave MD 21223
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Re: Using types for filter, air box? [Re: Green Bastard]
#21851018 - 06/24/15 03:22 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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It's just colonizing jars. If you know how to prep grain and own a PC and you're cultivating cubes, I really don't see anything difficult about it. Do what ever you think works best for you.
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spacechildo
proletarians rise up



Registered: 01/24/13
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Re: Using types for filter, air box? [Re: Buck513]
#21851025 - 06/24/15 03:23 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Buck513 said: That's just taking it too literal.
maybe I am, your statement just seemed kinda bold to me. I'm not saying he is spot on on everything but comments like yours does nothing but cast suspicion on everything he's done here. The fact you've tried it once doesnt mean the theory is debunked. I'd rather see you explain why you feel the specific quote is wrong/not spot on/questionable whatever..
I hope you get where I'm coming from here, its not directed at you specifically its just coincidence I'm saying it now but I've just seen an upswing in new growers say things like that from the week RR left. I dont think its coincidence there weren't as many speaking up while he was still around..
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Buck513

Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 5,682
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Re: Using types for filter, air box? [Re: spacechildo]
#21851055 - 06/24/15 03:33 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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I never said it was 100% debunked. But I feel even with a syringe made from 1/50th of a print, there are still so many spores in .5-1cc of solution shaking it will not do a single thing.
Not sure why you feel I'm hating on RR, I love the guy. I wish he would come back, andddd I wasn't even posting much when RR was around so
And I'm not sure what quote you're talking about. Like I said before, if someone like RR or someone of his stature, said shaking after inoc is bad, how many people are going to test it?
Im wondering how many actually have noced up jars like this and did a comparison. It was actually the first thing I "tested" in this hobby. It was only 30-40 jars so I can't debunk it with that test alone. Again, there's so many spores even in a well diluted syringe, that shaking them and it causing harm I just find total bs
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Buck513

Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 5,682
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Re: Using types for filter, air box? [Re: Buck513]
#21851114 - 06/24/15 03:46 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Let's say a spore print contains 500,000,000 spores. Which I feel is a bit conservative. But at any rate, say you make 100 syringes with that spore print.
There should be 5 million spores in every syringe. 5 million divided by 10cc is 500,000.
There should be 500,000 spores in every CC of liquid which means there's 25,000 spores in every single drop of solution.
So I ask again, is shaking after inoc gonna disturb them to where they can't connect with each other?
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spacechildo
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Re: Using types for filter, air box? [Re: Buck513]
#21851138 - 06/24/15 03:51 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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just imagine the square inches total of spores and the sq inches or maybe cubic inches.
I've had different exp than you, I saw weak growth many places in the jar when I shook after inoc and once I stopped doing that it seemed like it grew in thicker faster growing patches that got to 30# sooner than the shaken earlier jars did.
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Inocuole
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Re: Wondering about why 4 inoculation holes [Re: Buck513]
#21851356 - 06/24/15 04:36 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Buck513 said:
Quote:
Machiavelliavore said: Just to be clear since he's new, you shake after your spores germinate into thick white stripes, not immediately after injecting spores.
Uhh, no you dont.
There's already 10s if not 100s of millions of spores in the amount of solution you squirted into the jars, shaking them after inoculation is only beneficial.
Buck did you even read what he said? I mean he was still technically incorrect since you shake at ~20% but he specifically said after germination.
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Buck513

Registered: 04/17/14
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Re: Wondering about why 4 inoculation holes [Re: Inocuole]
#21851371 - 06/24/15 04:38 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yeah I guess I misread it.
-------------------- Fail to plan and you plan to fail. Enter the Ban Lottery
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Machiavelliavore
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Re: Wondering about why 4 inoculation holes [Re: Inocuole]
#21851507 - 06/24/15 05:11 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Inocuole said:
Quote:
Buck513 said:
Quote:
Machiavelliavore said: Just to be clear since he's new, you shake after your spores germinate into thick white stripes, not immediately after injecting spores.
Uhh, no you dont.
There's already 10s if not 100s of millions of spores in the amount of solution you squirted into the jars, shaking them after inoculation is only beneficial.
Buck did you even read what he said? I mean he was still technically incorrect since you shake at ~20% but he specifically said after germination.
Thick white spires probably constitute 1/2 cup or so of colonized grain. If the jar has 3 cups of grains, that's 16.6%, which would be a pretty typical shake timing afaik.
Again, I don't use spore syringes.
--------------------
I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister. I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave. I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent. Triggered yet? Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."
No, this does not look right...
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Inocuole
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That's cool and all but you were unspecific enough that it could've been interpreted lots of different ways, which it clearly was. 
Thick white spires isn't even how I would describe all healthy growth 100% of the time, so that's more confusing for someone who doesn't even know what they're doing like OP.
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Machiavelliavore
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Re: Wondering about why 4 inoculation holes [Re: Inocuole]
#21851555 - 06/24/15 05:21 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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lol. I try to clarify and I mess it up with a typo. Meant to say STRIPES. Must be the zerg in me taking over and wanting to go muta.
What I would call "Stripes" are typically full colonization in the areas where the spore solution was initially deposited.
--------------------
I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister. I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave. I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent. Triggered yet? Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."
No, this does not look right...
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Buck513

Registered: 04/17/14
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Uhhh...you mean rhizo?
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MonkeyJesusFresco
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Re: Wondering about why 4 inoculation holes [Re: Buck513]
#21851996 - 06/24/15 06:57 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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the reason I don't shake after inoculation (spore solution or agar) is to observe what grows.
if, where I dropped the agar/spore-solution grows, that's great. but if I wait, I can observe the rest of the grain, and make sure nothing else starts growing, where I didn't put agar/spores; this gives me an idea if I fuck'd up my sterile technique .
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JohnDoeKENTUCKY
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Re: Wondering about why 4 inoculation holes [Re: Buck513]
#21854829 - 06/25/15 11:54 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Buck513 said: Uhhh...you mean rhizo?
Why don't we just come to a consensus and say that you shake a small amount right after inoculation
-john
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Inocuole
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Quote:
JohnDoeKENTUCKY said:
Quote:
Buck513 said: Uhhh...you mean rhizo?
Why don't we just come to a consensus and say that you shake a small amount right after inoculation
-john
Because that's not correct nor is it specific. Shaking immediately after spore inoculations is bad news. You can shake after inoculations if you used a live inoculant like LC, agar, or LI, if you know what you're doing.. Never with spores. It's not right after inoculation, nor is it the same day, and most times not even the same week.
Shake at 25%-30% colonization, and not a second sooner.
There is no follow up to this answer because this is the definitive answer. No qualifiers, no "what if"s, no accidents, no exceptions, and no stretches of the imagination.
25% or bust.
Also the post you quoted had nothing to do with shaking and everything to do with getting the correct terminology for a rhizomorph, which you actually may or may not see in your jars.
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invitro

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Re: Wondering about why 4 inoculation holes [Re: Inocuole]
#21855728 - 06/25/15 03:35 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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I've tested shaking 15% vs 25% and found 15% to be just as effective.  I wouldn't go below 15 though.
Edited by invitro (06/25/15 03:36 PM)
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Inocuole
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Re: Wondering about why 4 inoculation holes [Re: invitro]
#21855801 - 06/25/15 03:57 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
invitro said: I've tested shaking 15% vs 25% and found 15% to be just as effective.  I wouldn't go below 15 though.
It can't literally be just as effective. It's either more effective or less effective. We can say there might be diminishing returns after waiting past a certain point, but if you took two jars that were at 15% and 25% and shook them both I would be shocked if there were no difference in the end result. The closer to one another that each two colonized grains are, the less time it will take them to connect to each other and increase their growth speed accordingly.
Growth is really fast between 15% and 25% as well, another reason you might want to break it up later. Shaking can set the mycelium back if it has to travel too far to reconnect with the colony, and that's pretty much the basis for why it recovers so fast when shaken at the right time, and very slowly if shaken too soon.
Waiting til like 40% almost invariably means that the jar will be done 3-4 days after the shake.
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invitro

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Re: Wondering about why 4 inoculation holes [Re: Inocuole]
#21856071 - 06/25/15 05:02 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'm not really talking about shaking them at the same time.... I'm talking about 2 jars at 15%, one gets shaken, the other waits for 25% to shake... Bottom line is both those jars come to take the same amount of total time to colonize 100%.
Like if you could really shake the jar for excessive amounts of time, like in a paint shaker or something, you could probably get good results from a 1% colonized jar. Results just as fast as a 25% shaken by hand. Think about it, that's what lc is, lots of broken up myc floating all over the place, but it's just a tiny bit of myc, a really really tiny bit, less than what a 1% jar would have by volume of myc.
It's very tricky/dangerous dealing with absolutes.... 1)"It can't literally be just as effective" 2)shaking at 25-30% is THE way to go..
I try to avoid them AT ALL TIMES because it seems there is always the exception to the rule. And if you close your mind off to those possible exceptions then you miss out on learning something.
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Inocuole
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Re: Wondering about why 4 inoculation holes [Re: invitro]
#21856097 - 06/25/15 05:10 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Okay fair enough, I could see there being a point of convergence where the time it takes is equal both ways because the rates of growth match up regardless of what you do anywhere between 15-35%, however, when the alternative statements that are bouncing around are stuff like "just shake right after inoculation", I prefer to deal in absolutes. Absolutes keep people from asking dangerous questions when they don't have the basics down.
Obviously when you're in the swing of it, hell yeah let er rip and do some stupid shit for science, but I recall a time when I was starting out where certain facts were 100% what I needed to hear, rather than giant windows that lead me to have to make even more decisions without knowing what I'm doing.
Inevitably people will cut corners and find out what happens anyway though..
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Machiavelliavore
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Re: Wondering about why 4 inoculation holes [Re: Inocuole]
#21856725 - 06/25/15 07:22 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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There is a percentage at which good inoculation of the entire quantity of grain can be acheived with a handshake.
Factors:
No Matter what percentage of colonization (say under 60%,) shaking will speed up the process by inoculating the whole jar.
The later you shake, the more time you spend at a suboptimal colonization speed (creeping rhizomorphic preshake colonization.)
Later shakes result in better inoculation, and faster completion times AFTER the shake.
No matter when you shake, there are 1-3 days of grain recovery time for the mycellium to fluff up again and start spreading in a meaningful way. Therefore by shaking earlier, you are stunting the growth of fewer grains in at a slower stage of colonization.
The earlier the shake, the less of the mycellial network is disrupted, and the less energy it will waste rebuilding.
From observing G2G's at different ratios (which is basically the same as a shake ratio,) I feel that almost all colonization comes from colonized grains not mycellial fibers. These grains rapidly expand to what I would approximate to be a penny radius, and perhaps need to get a foothold on the grains inside that radius before they can expand further as rapidly (far from the original colonized nutrient source.)
Creeping rhizomorphic colonization of large pockets (quarter radius+) of uncolonized grain seems slow. The ojective (IMO) is to have enough inoculation points that the grain recovers, fluffs up for a few days, and the whole jar is consumed. Too early a shake/low a G2G ratio, and the fluff occurs, but there are still pockets that take several more days to be colonized.
Anyway, there comes a point where better inoculation will not really be acheived, the length of time to completion after shake will not go down significantly, and later shaking will only mean disrupting a greated colonized mass and stunting the growth of a greater number of grains for no good reason. The exact ratio will probably vary between grain types since their inoculation point density varies (lower for bird seed/grass seed and high for corn/rye)
I find 1/4 cup of Grass seed is a good if not slightly excessive quantity of inoculant for a 1/2 to 2/3 full quart jar. Grass seed has extremely high inoculation point density though.
--------------------
I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister. I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave. I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent. Triggered yet? Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."
No, this does not look right...
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invitro

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I currently use wbs, maybe that helps to explain the 15% thing.
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Inocuole
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Re: Wondering about why 4 inoculation holes [Re: invitro]
#21856756 - 06/25/15 07:31 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
invitro said: I currently use wbs, maybe that helps to explain the 15% thing.
Yes, it does, WBS benefits from a shake a lot more than other grains by nature of its small grain size.
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spacechildo
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Quote:
Machiavelliavore said: No Matter what percentage of colonization (say under 60%,) shaking will speed up the process by inoculating the whole jar.
The later you shake, the more time you spend at a suboptimal colonization speed (creeping rhizomorphic preshake colonization.)
Later shakes result in better inoculation, and faster completion times AFTER the shake.
what does this even mean? it was as far as I got...
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Inocuole
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Re: Wondering about why 4 inoculation holes [Re: spacechildo]
#21856771 - 06/25/15 07:34 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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He phrased it weird but he basically said the same thing I did.
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Machiavelliavore
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Re: Wondering about why 4 inoculation holes [Re: spacechildo]
#21856968 - 06/25/15 08:20 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
spacechildo said:
Quote:
Machiavelliavore said: No Matter what percentage of colonization (say under 60%,) shaking will speed up the process by inoculating the whole jar.
The later you shake, the more time you spend at a suboptimal colonization speed (creeping rhizomorphic preshake colonization.)
Later shakes result in better inoculation, and faster completion times AFTER the shake.
what does this even mean? it was as far as I got...
Shaking a jar will always speed up colonization immensely. For an quantity of clustered colonized grains, those grains would always colonize the remaining grains faster if they were distributed. The recovery time of 1-3 days mitigates the effectiveness of shaking, making a single shake the most effective.
The time you spend colonizing before the shake will see diminishing returns in the amount of time you save colonizing after the shake, because proximity can only speed things up so much. One piece of grain probably won't colonize significantly faster by having 3 colonized grains next to it as opposed to having just one. However, if an uncolonized grain is six grains away from an inoculation point, that inoculation point will have to colonize its way through 5 grains before getting to the sixth, which will slow things down.
--------------------
I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister. I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave. I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent. Triggered yet? Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."
No, this does not look right...
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Inocuole
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Shaking a jar will not ALWAYS speed up colonization, stop it with that.
If you have a colonized spot the size of a quarter shaking it will not speed up growth because that quarter would have grown faster over the next few days undisturbed than it would take for the grains to recover and then catch up after a shake.
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lovesquare
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If were talking quarts I use one 1/8" for inoculation and one 1/2" inch for air exchange, ez felt as the filter. Sealed with rtv silicone. Works fine, no contams. A helpful tip, use a rubber band around the top of the jar to keep the foil sealed, let them cool and dry in the PC and your good to go.
-------------------- If you go down round the bend in the river, You're gonna find a few changes been going down there. If you go down to the gas-powered flatland, Where most of the people just think that they're free, Remember the peace that you had on the mountain, Come back to the love that you had here with me...
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Mad Season
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Re: Wondering about why 4 inoculation holes [Re: lovesquare]
#21859447 - 06/26/15 10:52 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21365919
Check out this thread. You may say we want as little spores as possible, but unless you scraped enough into the water for you not to even see what you scraped, 1 drop will easily more than a couole hundred thousand spores. I have read LOTS of people shake at inoculation. It really speeds up growth too. I don't inoculate jars with spores, so I don't have a comparison. Just parroting what I've been told.
As for shaking right when they germinate, wait for 20-30% colonization before shaking. I wouldn't shake again after that.
Edited by Mad Season (06/26/15 10:56 AM)
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