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Buck513

Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 5,682
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Re: Wondering about why 4 inoculation holes [Re: Inocuole]
#21851371 - 06/24/15 04:38 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yeah I guess I misread it.
-------------------- Fail to plan and you plan to fail. Enter the Ban Lottery
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Machiavelliavore
Vermiculite Hater



Registered: 12/08/14
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Loc: The Sporetorn States
Last seen: 3 months, 20 days
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Re: Wondering about why 4 inoculation holes [Re: Inocuole]
#21851507 - 06/24/15 05:11 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Inocuole said:
Quote:
Buck513 said:
Quote:
Machiavelliavore said: Just to be clear since he's new, you shake after your spores germinate into thick white stripes, not immediately after injecting spores.
Uhh, no you dont.
There's already 10s if not 100s of millions of spores in the amount of solution you squirted into the jars, shaking them after inoculation is only beneficial.
Buck did you even read what he said? I mean he was still technically incorrect since you shake at ~20% but he specifically said after germination.
Thick white spires probably constitute 1/2 cup or so of colonized grain. If the jar has 3 cups of grains, that's 16.6%, which would be a pretty typical shake timing afaik.
Again, I don't use spore syringes.
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I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister. I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave. I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent. Triggered yet? Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."
No, this does not look right...
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Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
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That's cool and all but you were unspecific enough that it could've been interpreted lots of different ways, which it clearly was. 
Thick white spires isn't even how I would describe all healthy growth 100% of the time, so that's more confusing for someone who doesn't even know what they're doing like OP.
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Machiavelliavore
Vermiculite Hater



Registered: 12/08/14
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Re: Wondering about why 4 inoculation holes [Re: Inocuole]
#21851555 - 06/24/15 05:21 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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lol. I try to clarify and I mess it up with a typo. Meant to say STRIPES. Must be the zerg in me taking over and wanting to go muta.
What I would call "Stripes" are typically full colonization in the areas where the spore solution was initially deposited.
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I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister. I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave. I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent. Triggered yet? Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."
No, this does not look right...
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Buck513

Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 5,682
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Uhhh...you mean rhizo?
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MonkeyJesusFresco
am i suspended in agar?



Registered: 10/09/12
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Re: Wondering about why 4 inoculation holes [Re: Buck513]
#21851996 - 06/24/15 06:57 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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the reason I don't shake after inoculation (spore solution or agar) is to observe what grows.
if, where I dropped the agar/spore-solution grows, that's great. but if I wait, I can observe the rest of the grain, and make sure nothing else starts growing, where I didn't put agar/spores; this gives me an idea if I fuck'd up my sterile technique .
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JohnDoeKENTUCKY
Stranger


Registered: 06/17/15
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Re: Wondering about why 4 inoculation holes [Re: Buck513]
#21854829 - 06/25/15 11:54 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Buck513 said: Uhhh...you mean rhizo?
Why don't we just come to a consensus and say that you shake a small amount right after inoculation
-john
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Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
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Quote:
JohnDoeKENTUCKY said:
Quote:
Buck513 said: Uhhh...you mean rhizo?
Why don't we just come to a consensus and say that you shake a small amount right after inoculation
-john
Because that's not correct nor is it specific. Shaking immediately after spore inoculations is bad news. You can shake after inoculations if you used a live inoculant like LC, agar, or LI, if you know what you're doing.. Never with spores. It's not right after inoculation, nor is it the same day, and most times not even the same week.
Shake at 25%-30% colonization, and not a second sooner.
There is no follow up to this answer because this is the definitive answer. No qualifiers, no "what if"s, no accidents, no exceptions, and no stretches of the imagination.
25% or bust.
Also the post you quoted had nothing to do with shaking and everything to do with getting the correct terminology for a rhizomorph, which you actually may or may not see in your jars.
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invitro

Registered: 05/03/13
Posts: 2,529
Last seen: 1 month, 21 days
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Re: Wondering about why 4 inoculation holes [Re: Inocuole]
#21855728 - 06/25/15 03:35 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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I've tested shaking 15% vs 25% and found 15% to be just as effective.  I wouldn't go below 15 though.
Edited by invitro (06/25/15 03:36 PM)
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Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
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Re: Wondering about why 4 inoculation holes [Re: invitro]
#21855801 - 06/25/15 03:57 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
invitro said: I've tested shaking 15% vs 25% and found 15% to be just as effective.  I wouldn't go below 15 though.
It can't literally be just as effective. It's either more effective or less effective. We can say there might be diminishing returns after waiting past a certain point, but if you took two jars that were at 15% and 25% and shook them both I would be shocked if there were no difference in the end result. The closer to one another that each two colonized grains are, the less time it will take them to connect to each other and increase their growth speed accordingly.
Growth is really fast between 15% and 25% as well, another reason you might want to break it up later. Shaking can set the mycelium back if it has to travel too far to reconnect with the colony, and that's pretty much the basis for why it recovers so fast when shaken at the right time, and very slowly if shaken too soon.
Waiting til like 40% almost invariably means that the jar will be done 3-4 days after the shake.
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invitro

Registered: 05/03/13
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Re: Wondering about why 4 inoculation holes [Re: Inocuole]
#21856071 - 06/25/15 05:02 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'm not really talking about shaking them at the same time.... I'm talking about 2 jars at 15%, one gets shaken, the other waits for 25% to shake... Bottom line is both those jars come to take the same amount of total time to colonize 100%.
Like if you could really shake the jar for excessive amounts of time, like in a paint shaker or something, you could probably get good results from a 1% colonized jar. Results just as fast as a 25% shaken by hand. Think about it, that's what lc is, lots of broken up myc floating all over the place, but it's just a tiny bit of myc, a really really tiny bit, less than what a 1% jar would have by volume of myc.
It's very tricky/dangerous dealing with absolutes.... 1)"It can't literally be just as effective" 2)shaking at 25-30% is THE way to go..
I try to avoid them AT ALL TIMES because it seems there is always the exception to the rule. And if you close your mind off to those possible exceptions then you miss out on learning something.
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Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
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Re: Wondering about why 4 inoculation holes [Re: invitro]
#21856097 - 06/25/15 05:10 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Okay fair enough, I could see there being a point of convergence where the time it takes is equal both ways because the rates of growth match up regardless of what you do anywhere between 15-35%, however, when the alternative statements that are bouncing around are stuff like "just shake right after inoculation", I prefer to deal in absolutes. Absolutes keep people from asking dangerous questions when they don't have the basics down.
Obviously when you're in the swing of it, hell yeah let er rip and do some stupid shit for science, but I recall a time when I was starting out where certain facts were 100% what I needed to hear, rather than giant windows that lead me to have to make even more decisions without knowing what I'm doing.
Inevitably people will cut corners and find out what happens anyway though..
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Machiavelliavore
Vermiculite Hater



Registered: 12/08/14
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Re: Wondering about why 4 inoculation holes [Re: Inocuole]
#21856725 - 06/25/15 07:22 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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There is a percentage at which good inoculation of the entire quantity of grain can be acheived with a handshake.
Factors:
No Matter what percentage of colonization (say under 60%,) shaking will speed up the process by inoculating the whole jar.
The later you shake, the more time you spend at a suboptimal colonization speed (creeping rhizomorphic preshake colonization.)
Later shakes result in better inoculation, and faster completion times AFTER the shake.
No matter when you shake, there are 1-3 days of grain recovery time for the mycellium to fluff up again and start spreading in a meaningful way. Therefore by shaking earlier, you are stunting the growth of fewer grains in at a slower stage of colonization.
The earlier the shake, the less of the mycellial network is disrupted, and the less energy it will waste rebuilding.
From observing G2G's at different ratios (which is basically the same as a shake ratio,) I feel that almost all colonization comes from colonized grains not mycellial fibers. These grains rapidly expand to what I would approximate to be a penny radius, and perhaps need to get a foothold on the grains inside that radius before they can expand further as rapidly (far from the original colonized nutrient source.)
Creeping rhizomorphic colonization of large pockets (quarter radius+) of uncolonized grain seems slow. The ojective (IMO) is to have enough inoculation points that the grain recovers, fluffs up for a few days, and the whole jar is consumed. Too early a shake/low a G2G ratio, and the fluff occurs, but there are still pockets that take several more days to be colonized.
Anyway, there comes a point where better inoculation will not really be acheived, the length of time to completion after shake will not go down significantly, and later shaking will only mean disrupting a greated colonized mass and stunting the growth of a greater number of grains for no good reason. The exact ratio will probably vary between grain types since their inoculation point density varies (lower for bird seed/grass seed and high for corn/rye)
I find 1/4 cup of Grass seed is a good if not slightly excessive quantity of inoculant for a 1/2 to 2/3 full quart jar. Grass seed has extremely high inoculation point density though.
--------------------
I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister. I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave. I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent. Triggered yet? Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."
No, this does not look right...
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invitro

Registered: 05/03/13
Posts: 2,529
Last seen: 1 month, 21 days
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I currently use wbs, maybe that helps to explain the 15% thing.
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Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
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Re: Wondering about why 4 inoculation holes [Re: invitro]
#21856756 - 06/25/15 07:31 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
invitro said: I currently use wbs, maybe that helps to explain the 15% thing.
Yes, it does, WBS benefits from a shake a lot more than other grains by nature of its small grain size.
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spacechildo
proletarians rise up



Registered: 01/24/13
Posts: 19,243
Loc: Babylon
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Quote:
Machiavelliavore said: No Matter what percentage of colonization (say under 60%,) shaking will speed up the process by inoculating the whole jar.
The later you shake, the more time you spend at a suboptimal colonization speed (creeping rhizomorphic preshake colonization.)
Later shakes result in better inoculation, and faster completion times AFTER the shake.
what does this even mean? it was as far as I got...
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Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
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Re: Wondering about why 4 inoculation holes [Re: spacechildo]
#21856771 - 06/25/15 07:34 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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He phrased it weird but he basically said the same thing I did.
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Machiavelliavore
Vermiculite Hater



Registered: 12/08/14
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Re: Wondering about why 4 inoculation holes [Re: spacechildo]
#21856968 - 06/25/15 08:20 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
spacechildo said:
Quote:
Machiavelliavore said: No Matter what percentage of colonization (say under 60%,) shaking will speed up the process by inoculating the whole jar.
The later you shake, the more time you spend at a suboptimal colonization speed (creeping rhizomorphic preshake colonization.)
Later shakes result in better inoculation, and faster completion times AFTER the shake.
what does this even mean? it was as far as I got...
Shaking a jar will always speed up colonization immensely. For an quantity of clustered colonized grains, those grains would always colonize the remaining grains faster if they were distributed. The recovery time of 1-3 days mitigates the effectiveness of shaking, making a single shake the most effective.
The time you spend colonizing before the shake will see diminishing returns in the amount of time you save colonizing after the shake, because proximity can only speed things up so much. One piece of grain probably won't colonize significantly faster by having 3 colonized grains next to it as opposed to having just one. However, if an uncolonized grain is six grains away from an inoculation point, that inoculation point will have to colonize its way through 5 grains before getting to the sixth, which will slow things down.
--------------------
I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister. I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave. I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent. Triggered yet? Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."
No, this does not look right...
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Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
Loc: ★
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Shaking a jar will not ALWAYS speed up colonization, stop it with that.
If you have a colonized spot the size of a quarter shaking it will not speed up growth because that quarter would have grown faster over the next few days undisturbed than it would take for the grains to recover and then catch up after a shake.
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lovesquare
Love²

Registered: 06/04/15
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If were talking quarts I use one 1/8" for inoculation and one 1/2" inch for air exchange, ez felt as the filter. Sealed with rtv silicone. Works fine, no contams. A helpful tip, use a rubber band around the top of the jar to keep the foil sealed, let them cool and dry in the PC and your good to go.
-------------------- If you go down round the bend in the river, You're gonna find a few changes been going down there. If you go down to the gas-powered flatland, Where most of the people just think that they're free, Remember the peace that you had on the mountain, Come back to the love that you had here with me...
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