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InvisibleShins
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21878875 - 06/30/15 04:19 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

Shins said:
The debate started when I claimed that different genes and gene expressions can affect the propensity of certain traits and behaviour, namely criminal activity.

then the PC police came to try and dispute genetics and evolution by claiming its all social or because od poverty, which is total BS.




Genetics might affect behavior, sure, but is there any evidence to say it does on a race-wide level? Besides, do you have any evidence to counter the Encylocpedia Brit. when it says that there is no biogenetic basis for race? Because, without those two things, you've got nothing to build your argument on.





Genetics definitely affect behavior,  no maybe about it.  Races are categorized partially by genetics. 

Encyclopedia brit is inaccurate.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21878879 - 06/30/15 04:19 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

SneezingPenis said:

why wouldn't the biological definition of race apply to humans?





No need to reinvent the wheel here:

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
It does apply. But there are no races of that kind defined for humans. There is the socially defined race, but not the biologically defined.




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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: Shins]
    #21878883 - 06/30/15 04:20 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Its not only virii that affect different people differently,  behavioral traits do too.    Jist like how dogs, even within the same breed are selectively bred for their expressions of temperament. 

Just like dogs, different human genetic ezpressions also ezpress different temperaments. 

Humans are not magically exempt from this.




I completely agree that genetics could affect behavior. But you are implying that it happens on a race-wide basis (eg blacks are disposed to certain temperament). Do you have any evidence to support this notion, or are you just making assumptions?


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DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: Shins]
    #21878889 - 06/30/15 04:20 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:

Encyclopedia brit is inaccurate.



Everybody's inaccurate except you, of course.  Even your own source must be inaccurate insofar as it supports our position.


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InvisibleShins
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21878894 - 06/30/15 04:21 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
It does apply. But there are no races of that kind defined for humans. There is the socially defined race, but not the biologically defined.






You're a broken record.

there are races defined like that.

no dog is technically a "purebred"  they are all differing levels of mutt,


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: Shins]
    #21878902 - 06/30/15 04:23 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Your own source completely debunked the comparison to dog breeds, BTW:

"Such populations do not correspond to breeds of domestic animals, which have been produced by artificial selection over many generations for specific human purposes."

Do you even read your own sources?  Or do you just read a sentence that sounds good and link it?


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: Shins]
    #21878912 - 06/30/15 04:24 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

Shins said:
The debate started when I claimed that different genes and gene expressions can affect the propensity of certain traits and behaviour, namely criminal activity.

then the PC police came to try and dispute genetics and evolution by claiming its all social or because od poverty, which is total BS.




Genetics might affect behavior, sure, but is there any evidence to say it does on a race-wide level? Besides, do you have any evidence to counter the Encylocpedia Brit. when it says that there is no biogenetic basis for race? Because, without those two things, you've got nothing to build your argument on.





Genetics definitely affect behavior,  no maybe about it.  Races are categorized partially by genetics. 

Encyclopedia brit is inaccurate.




The Encyclopedia Brit. is generally regarded as well researched and accurate. So as opposed to just saying "no, it's wrong", why don't you provide some evidence to support your case?

Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
It does apply. But there are no races of that kind defined for humans. There is the socially defined race, but not the biologically defined.






You're a broken record.

there are races defined like that.

no dog is technically a "purebred"  they are all differing levels of mutt,




There are not taxonomical races defined for humans. That's a fact. There is one species and sub species of human (Homo sapiens sapiens) and it has not been further categorized.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21878921 - 06/30/15 04:26 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:

Your whole bit about viruses, bacteria, and disease that you've been going on about is irrelevant to this debate, and here's why. They don't affect racial groups indiscriminately.



Either you didn't mean to say this, or you are agreeing with me without knowing it. Maybe you meant discriminately? Because that is what they do.

Quote:

Sickle cell is not a disease that affects only black people. It's a disease that is more likely to occur in black people with lineages tracing back to maleria infested regions. A white person and a black person who doesn't have ancestry in maleria infected regions have the same chance of contracting sickle cell, even if they are different races.




You have no clue what you are talking about. You are seriously talking out your ass. SCA is not contractable and a white person does not have the same chance of having it as a black person, regardless of malaria stricken regional ancestry. Quit spouting shit you have no clue about.

Quote:

When someone says black, they don't differntiate between black people from the jungle and black people from the desert. They couldn't possibly know.  This is why biology is irrelevant to determining the races as used today. The races are too broadly defined.




If your argument is that races are too broadly defined, that is a completely different discussion. Also, as we are trying to define race is not whether there is a distinction between a black person from the jungle and a black person from the desert. You aren't helping your position. When someone refers to "the black race" they aren't simply saying "all the black colored people that live in urban areas" without expressly stating otherwise... they are meaning "all black people".

Quote:

Also, for the record, the sources that have been provided, like the Encylcopedia Britannica, are typically viewed as very reputable. Those sources agree with the position that race Is social and not biological. Unless you have a source to counter it, you're just stating your opinion. Which is fine, but your opinion is also counter to the scientific community and results on this one, and you haven't provided much to back it up.




your citation from EB simply states that "scholars are arguing" about it and that in favor of being PC, scientists are shirking away from using words like "race" because people call them racists for pointing out any distinction.
And I did give sources... are you reading this thread? I am the only one that has cited an ACTUAL SCIENTIFIC STUDY. all you guys are doing is regurgitating scientists OPINIONS.


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InvisibleShins
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21878930 - 06/30/15 04:28 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

Shins said:
Its not only virii that affect different people differently,  behavioral traits do too.    Jist like how dogs, even within the same breed are selectively bred for their expressions of temperament. 

Just like dogs, different human genetic ezpressions also ezpress different temperaments. 

Humans are not magically exempt from this.




I completely agree that genetics could affect behavior. But you are implying that it happens on a race-wide basis (eg blacks are disposed to certain temperament). Do you have any evidence to support this notion, or are you just making assumptions?





In general, blacks posess certain unique genes in common on average.

do the math.

if genetics affect behaviour, and certain groups of people have different genes than othera,  than....?

could different groups behave differently because od those unique genes?

just admit the possibility at least.


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InvisibleShins
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: Enlil]
    #21878939 - 06/30/15 04:29 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Your own source completely debunked the comparison to dog breeds, BTW:

"Such populations do not correspond to breeds of domestic animals, which have been produced by artificial selection over many generations for specific human purposes."

Do you even read your own sources?  Or do you just read a sentence that sounds good and link it?






I was not compating them in the same way.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: Enlil]
    #21878943 - 06/30/15 04:30 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

SneezingPenis said:

why wouldn't the biological definition of race apply to humans?





No need to reinvent the wheel here:

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
It does apply. But there are no races of that kind defined for humans. There is the socially defined race, but not the biologically defined.







And again, were it not relevant to objective diagnostic criteria in medicine there would be no point to fill out a part of the medical form for race.
It has been defined biologically, it is currently being used as a tool, therefor it is not merely a social construct. Why are you incapable of linking these two things? all you are saying is "it isn't" which isn't an argument at all.

And you still refuse to acknowledge it.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #21878959 - 06/30/15 04:34 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

are you guys seriously saying that because the chart on the wall in school that shows the Taxonomy Tree doesn't have under "Homo Sapiens" the terms "Homo Sapien Negrus" and "Homo Sapien anglicus" that it isn't a valid distinction with valid criteria?

I really hope that isn't your position at this point....


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #21878990 - 06/30/15 04:41 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


Either you didn't mean to say this, or you are agreeing with me without knowing it. Maybe you meant discriminately? Because that is what they do.






Yes, I'm on my phone and often make typos. And that is not what they do. They affect people with susceptibilities, but not entire racial groups.

Quote:



You have no clue what you are talking about. You are seriously talking out your ass. SCA is not contractable and a white person does not have the same chance of having it as a black person, regardless of malaria stricken regional ancestry. Quit spouting shit you have no clue about.






Do you know why sickle cell is more common in black people? It's because the sickle cell phenotype provides an immunity to malaria. So, in maleria infested regions, it is selected for. In other regions it isn't. The people in malaria regions tend to be black. If someone comes from a lineage where maleria was never prevalent, then sickle cell never became more likely in their lineage. The color of the skin is irrelevant. So once again, the chance of developing sickle cell is essentially the same amongst all people whose lineages were never exposed to large amounts of maleria, regardless of skin color.

Quote:



If your argument is that races are too broadly defined, that is a completely different discussion. Also, as we are trying to define race is not whether there is a distinction between a black person from the jungle and a black person from the desert. You aren't helping your position. When someone refers to "the black race" they aren't simply saying "all the black colored people that live in urban areas" without expressly stating otherwise... they are meaning "all black people".





The desert jungle distinction is relevant to sickle cell, see above. And I'm saying that race, as defined socially, is to broad to have any meaning biologically.
Quote:



your citation from EB simply states that "scholars are arguing" about it and that in favor of being PC, scientists are shirking away from using words like "race" because people call them racists for pointing out any distinction.
And I did give sources... are you reading this thread? I am the only one that has cited an ACTUAL SCIENTIFIC STUDY. all you guys are doing is regurgitating scientists OPINIONS.



I missed the study you posted, I'm on my phone, so that tends to happen. If you link it again, I'd be happy to read it.

Actually, EB said this:

"Quote:

Genetic studies in the late 20th century refuted the existence of biogenetically distinct races, and scholars now argue that “races” are cultural interventions reflecting specific attitudes and beliefs that were imposed on different populations in the wake of western European conquests beginning in the 15th century."

""Because of the overlapping of traits that bear no relationship to one another (such as skin colour and hair texture) and the inability of scientists to cluster peoples into discrete racial packages, modern researchers have concluded that the concept of race has no biological validity.""


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: Shins]
    #21879005 - 06/30/15 04:44 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

Shins said:
Its not only virii that affect different people differently,  behavioral traits do too.    Jist like how dogs, even within the same breed are selectively bred for their expressions of temperament. 

Just like dogs, different human genetic ezpressions also ezpress different temperaments. 

Humans are not magically exempt from this.




I completely agree that genetics could affect behavior. But you are implying that it happens on a race-wide basis (eg blacks are disposed to certain temperament). Do you have any evidence to support this notion, or are you just making assumptions?





In general, blacks posess certain unique genes in common on average.

do the math.

if genetics affect behaviour, and certain groups of people have different genes than othera,  than....?

could different groups behave differently because od those unique genes?

just admit the possibility at least.




It is absolutely possible. I don't think it is likely, given that there is no genetic basis for defining race and because I don't think a link between genetics and behavior is likely to be very cut and dry. But it is certainly possible.

Now, do you have any evidence to support that it may be true, or were you making assumptions?


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #21879016 - 06/30/15 04:46 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

SneezingPenis said:
are you guys seriously saying that because the chart on the wall in school that shows the Taxonomy Tree doesn't have under "Homo Sapiens" the terms "Homo Sapien Negrus" and "Homo Sapien anglicus" that it isn't a valid distinction with valid criteria?

I really hope that isn't your position at this point....




I can't remember who cited the Wikipedia page on Race (biology), but that is exactly what it refers to. A taxonomic distinction below species. Those currently do not exist for humans, there is only Homo sapiens sapiens. Therefore, that page is irrelevant to a discussion about humans.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21879163 - 06/30/15 05:17 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:


Either you didn't mean to say this, or you are agreeing with me without knowing it. Maybe you meant discriminately? Because that is what they do.






Yes, I'm on my phone and often make typos. And that is not what they do. They affect people with susceptibilities, but not entire racial groups.



Quote:



You have no clue what you are talking about. You are seriously talking out your ass. SCA is not contractable and a white person does not have the same chance of having it as a black person, regardless of malaria stricken regional ancestry. Quit spouting shit you have no clue about.






Do you know why sickle cell is more common in black people? It's because the sickle cell phenotype provides an immunity to malaria. So, in maleria infested regions, it is selected for. In other regions it isn't. The people in malaria regions tend to be black. If someone comes from a lineage where maleria was never prevalent, then sickle cell never became more likely in their lineage. The color of the skin is irrelevant. So once again, the chance of developing sickle cell is essentially the same amongst all people whose lineages were never exposed to large amounts of maleria, regardless of skin color.




Again, that is supporting my argument. Race is developed by regional ancestry. You can thank nationalism, incest, lack of feasible transportation, tribalism and a handful of other social constructs that created regional distinctions... meaning people were born in a place, fucked in that same place, had babies in that same place, and died in that same place. Even nomadic tribes kept their lineage confined to their own "socially constructed" kind.
You could make an argument that the lines of the divisions of races are blurring and will continue to do so with the advent of greater transportation. The further a person can freely move from their place of origin will decrease the rigidity of observable distinction. Race will eventually become more of a social or cultural distinction and less of an objective distinction based on genetics.


Quote:



Actually, EB said this:

"Quote:

Genetic studies in the late 20th century refuted the existence of biogenetically distinct races, and scholars now argue that “races” are cultural interventions reflecting specific attitudes and beliefs that were imposed on different populations in the wake of western European conquests beginning in the 15th century."

""Because of the overlapping of traits that bear no relationship to one another (such as skin colour and hair texture) and the inability of scientists to cluster peoples into discrete racial packages, modern researchers have concluded that the concept of race has no biological validity.""




I would love to see what scientific studies really refuted it... but I do like this: "the inability of scientists to cluster peoples into discrete racial packages"... It isn't an inability, but rather a social backlash against doing any studies that do use race as a distinction.
Freakonomics writers got death threats for simply stating that crime dropped in the early 90's due to Roe V Wade 18 years prior.... basically saying that all the would be criminals from low socioeconomic parents were exterminated... then a lot of people read that as "black kids" and got angry.

But still, your EB quote really doesn't say anything other than basically "It has become too touchy of a subject for scientists to even acknowledge race". Doctors are scientists, and they utilize racial distinction as a diagnostic criteria.... so..... yeah. Are they just having great results with varying forms of treatments based on race? or is there a real objective (and useful) distinction to be made?


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21879184 - 06/30/15 05:19 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

SneezingPenis said:
are you guys seriously saying that because the chart on the wall in school that shows the Taxonomy Tree doesn't have under "Homo Sapiens" the terms "Homo Sapien Negrus" and "Homo Sapien anglicus" that it isn't a valid distinction with valid criteria?

I really hope that isn't your position at this point....




I can't remember who cited the Wikipedia page on Race (biology), but that is exactly what it refers to. A taxonomic distinction below species. Those currently do not exist for humans, there is only Homo sapiens sapiens. Therefore, that page is irrelevant to a discussion about humans.




It said that it was an informal classification... meaning once again that no one dare make it a classification lest they be labelled a racist and compared to nazi scientists.


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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #21879406 - 06/30/15 06:08 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

SneezingPenis said:
It said that it was an informal classification... meaning once again that no one dare make it a classification lest they be labelled a racist and compared to nazi scientists.



It's amazing how many conservatives believe scientists are more motivated by politics than by science.  As if they went to college for 10 years so they can just make things up rather than using the scientific method and peer review.

But that's not how science works.  And if you claim it is, I'd like to see some evidence showing significant numbers of scientists make up their conclusions.


--------------------
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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21879444 - 06/30/15 06:20 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

can i introduce you to the pharmaceutical industry and the branch of "science" called psychiatry?


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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #21879662 - 06/30/15 07:11 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Liberals think sociology is a hard science.


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