Home | Community | Message Board

Out-Grow.com - Mushroom Growing Kits & Supplies
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Original Sensible Seeds High THC Strains   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineSneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
 User Gallery
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21878268 - 06/30/15 01:59 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

can't believe you guys are still wasting time talking about this.

Enlil and co. has done nothing to refute the only actual proof or evidence presented in this thread: why does the HIV virus, which is not aware of social constructs, make an observable distinction when infecting different groups of people?

Enlil is basically arguing that the word "Race" is a social construct, he has made no case whatsoever that an objective demarcation doesn't exist.

but here, since "scientists" are so infallible and anything they produce is law...

http://www.world-science.net/exclusives/050128_racefrm.htm
Quote:

The latest research to challenge the race-as-social-construct theory is a study of 3,636 people from across America and Taiwan, led by Neil Risch, then of the Stanford University School of Medicine and now at the University of California at San Francisco.

It found that people’s self-identified race is a nearly perfect indicator of their genetic background, contradicting the race-as-social-construct view, Risch said.

The study’s authors said it was the largest study of its kind. The participants identified themselves as either white, African-American, East Asian or Hispanic. For each participant, the researchers examined 326 DNA regions that tend to vary between people. These regions are not necessarily within functioning genes—some regions of the genome have no known use—but are simply genetic signposts that come in a variety of forms at the same place.

Without knowing how the participants had identified themselves, Risch and his team ran the results through a computer program that grouped individuals according to patterns of the 326 signposts. This analysis could have resulted in any number of different clusters, but only four clear groups turned up. And in each case the individuals within those clusters all fell within the same self-identified racial group.

“This work comes on the heels of several contradictory studies about the genetic basis of race. Some found that race is a social construct with no genetic basis while others suggested that clear genetic differences exist between people of different races,” a press release from Stanford said.

“What makes the current study, published in the February issue of the American Journal of Human Genetics, more conclusive is its size. The study is by far the largest, consisting of 3,636 people who all identified themselves as either white, African-American, East Asian or Hispanic. Of these, only five individuals had DNA that matched an ethnic group different than the box they checked at the beginning of the study.”




it also addresses another point trying to be made in this thread that politics hold little to no sway over the scientific community.
Quote:

Several scientists who have supported the view of race as a social construct did not respond to requests for comment on the new studies, including officials from the American Anthropological Association and the author of the New England Journal editorial, Robert S. Schwartz.





also, there are a great deal of scientists that claim climate change doesn't exist.

but here is more....

a very well written article. Very long.
http://www.unz.com/runz/does-race-exist-do-hills-exist/
Quote:

All too many socially-conditioned Americans have absorbed the Lewontin-Gould mantra that “Race Does Not Exist” which from a scientific perspective is roughly similar to claiming that “Teeth Do Not Exist” or perhaps “Hills Do Not Exist,” with the latter being an especially good parallel. It is perfectly correct that the notion of “hill” is ill-defined and vague—what precise height distinguishes a pile of dirt from a hill and a hill from a mountain?—but nevertheless denying the reality or usefulness of such a concept would be an absurdity. Similarly, the notion of distinct human races—genetic clusters across a wide variety of scales and degrees of fuzziness—is an obviously useful and correct organizing principle, and one which was probably accepted without question by everyone in the history of the world except for deluded Americans of the last fifty years.




If you want to argue the semantics of whether or not "Race" is truly synonymous with "ethnicity", fine. This would be the same as claiming there is no validity for observable distinctions if they do not meet the threshold to become a new species. Just because we DONT have a "socially constructed" word or classification for something doesn't invalidate an observation. If there were no such classification beyond Kingdoms would it be fair to assume that there is no validation to the observable distinction between humans and any other vertebrate?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleShins
Fun guy
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: Enlil]
    #21878272 - 06/30/15 02:00 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
So your source doesn't support that biological races exist in humans.  Got anything better?  Perhaps something from stormfront?





Nobody ever claimed races were purely genetic.

You however claimed that biology plays no part in classifyimg race.

I claim that biology and society are BOTH factors in classifying race, which is what most scientists also say.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #21878287 - 06/30/15 02:03 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

That's what socially determined means. We've learned in our culture that people that look a certain way fall into distinct and broad categories. These categories are associated with certain stereotypes. What this whole debate has been about, is that these broad categories don't carry much, or any, biological significance. They are determined by what we've learned in our culture about how to view and group people.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,510
Loc: Uncanny Valley
Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #21878301 - 06/30/15 02:07 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

The word "race" in biology has a meaning, but that meaning simply doesn't apply to humans.  When we use that word to define humans, we're using a socially constructed concept that has nothing to do with the biological meaning of the word.  They're two completely different things.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleShins
Fun guy
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21878307 - 06/30/15 02:09 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

The debate started when I claimed that different genes and gene expressions can affect the propensity of certain traits and behaviour, namely criminal activity.

then the PC police came to try and dispute genetics and evolution by claiming its all social or because od poverty, which is total BS.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleShins
Fun guy
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: Enlil]
    #21878311 - 06/30/15 02:11 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
The word "race" in biology has a meaning, but that meaning simply doesn't apply to humans.  When we use that word to define humans, we're using a socially constructed concept that has nothing to do with the biological meaning of the word.  They're two completely different things.





Humans are not separate from the rest of earths creatures and do not enjoy special classification.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineqman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 2 hours, 5 minutes
Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: Shins]
    #21878325 - 06/30/15 02:14 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
The debate started when I claimed that different genes and gene expressions can affect the propensity of certain traits and behaviour, namely criminal activity.

then the PC police came to try and dispute genetics and evolution by claiming its all social or because od poverty, which is total BS.




The biologists use the word "little" genetic differences between races, which as we know is a relative term.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,510
Loc: Uncanny Valley
Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: Shins]
    #21878327 - 06/30/15 02:15 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:

Humans are not separate from the rest of earths creatures and do not enjoy special classification.



Nobody said anything about special classification.  Some species have different races, others don't.  Humans is a species that doesn't.  Your source confirms this.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
 User Gallery
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21878347 - 06/30/15 02:20 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
That's what socially determined means. We've learned in our culture that people that look a certain way fall into distinct and broad categories. These categories are associated with certain stereotypes. What this whole debate has been about, is that these broad categories don't carry much, or any, biological significance. They are determined by what we've learned in our culture about how to view and group people.




By "observable distinction" I don't just mean superficial features. If the HIV virus affects one certain group of people differently than all other groups of people, that is an observable distinction not based on social construct. Ipso facto bruh.

If race was a social construct, then things that are not aware of such intangible stuff, should not make a similar distinction.
If race was a social construct, then there would not be treatments that are based upon a racial distinction that have more favorable results for that group.

You guys are basically arguing against that. Either you think virions and bacteria are aware of social constructs, or you think that particular scientific proof is wrong. Either way, you are mentally deficient.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,510
Loc: Uncanny Valley
Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #21878358 - 06/30/15 02:25 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Your argument is the equivalent of "Black people are black, and Asians have eyes that are shaped differently.  These are genetic traits, so race is genetic and therefore not a social construct"


Of course, you're missing the whole point.  Race is socially constructed and the lines are drawn based on visible phenotypes that are related to genotypes.  Of course the races share genetic traits.

That isn't what the word "race" means in biology, though.  Under the biological definition of race, humans do not have races.

Under the socially defined term, "race", sure...humans have races.

This is why we say that race is a social construct...at least as it is applied to humans.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
 User Gallery
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: Enlil]
    #21878419 - 06/30/15 02:43 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Your argument is the equivalent of "Black people are black, and Asians have eyes that are shaped differently.  These are genetic traits, so race is genetic and therefore not a social construct"




No, that isn't what I have been saying at all. If virions adhered to social constructs, then they would not kill people, because the concept of murder being wrong or bad is a social construct. You are completely unwilling to even acknowledge this argument.



Quote:

Of course, you're missing the whole point.  Race is socially constructed and the lines are drawn based on visible phenotypes that are related to genotypes.  Of course the races share genetic traits.

That isn't what the word "race" means in biology, though.  Under the biological definition of race, humans do not have races.

Under the socially defined term, "race", sure...humans have races.

This is why we say that race is a social construct...at least as it is applied to humans.




yes, under the biological definition of "race", humans have race. You keep wanting to back-peddle into semantics and you can't even do that properly. All you have so far is trying to poorly cite semantics and "scientists said so!".


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
 User Gallery
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #21878428 - 06/30/15 02:46 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

You are getting dangerously close to just saying "nothing is real! everything is a construct!".

take it to the spirituality forum if that is where you have to take arguments to slowly creep away from admitting you are wrong and defeated.


Edited by SneezingPenis (06/30/15 02:47 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,510
Loc: Uncanny Valley
Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #21878463 - 06/30/15 02:56 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

There's nothing to admit.  Human race is a social construct.  I've cited sources, shins has too.  You can plug your ears and scream "nanny nanny" all you want, but it doesn't change the basic fact.

Sorry that it doesn't fit your worldview.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
 User Gallery
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: Enlil]
    #21878509 - 06/30/15 03:05 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

you have cited a consensus opinion from a "scientific" organization that has a well documented history of pushing an unscientific agenda. I have cited studies and presented an ipso facto argument that you still have not even acknowledged, let alone attempt to refute.

All you keep saying is "racism is a social construct" as if saying it more will make it any more true, or become a logical argument.
Until you can tell me why non-sentient entities would act in accordance with illusory and abstract concepts, you have lost this argument.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,510
Loc: Uncanny Valley
Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #21878677 - 06/30/15 03:37 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Lol, you have just repeatedly said that because diseases act differently in different races, that race is a biological reality.  That's argument completely misses the whole core of what we're discussing.

We're discussing race in humans.  My position is that the biological notion of race doesn't apply to the human species.  That leaves only a socially constructed version.  It's really a simple position, actually.

Your argument is that races have certain genetic traits.

Those aren't contradictory positions at all.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: SneezingPenis] * 1
    #21878735 - 06/30/15 03:47 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

SneezingPenis said:
Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
That's what socially determined means. We've learned in our culture that people that look a certain way fall into distinct and broad categories. These categories are associated with certain stereotypes. What this whole debate has been about, is that these broad categories don't carry much, or any, biological significance. They are determined by what we've learned in our culture about how to view and group people.




By "observable distinction" I don't just mean superficial features. If the HIV virus affects one certain group of people differently than all other groups of people, that is an observable distinction not based on social construct. Ipso facto bruh.

If race was a social construct, then things that are not aware of such intangible stuff, should not make a similar distinction.
If race was a social construct, then there would not be treatments that are based upon a racial distinction that have more favorable results for that group.

You guys are basically arguing against that. Either you think virions and bacteria are aware of social constructs, or you think that particular scientific proof is wrong. Either way, you are mentally deficient.




Your whole bit about viruses, bacteria, and disease that you've been going on about is irrelevant to this debate, and here's why. They don't affect racial groups indiscriminately. Sickle cell is not a disease that affects only black people. It's a disease that is more likely to occur in black people with lineages tracing back to maleria infested regions. A white person and a black person who doesn't have ancestry in maleria infected regions have the same chance of contracting sickle cell, even if they are different races. When someone says black, they don't differntiate between black people from the jungle and black people from the desert. They couldn't possibly know.  This is why biology is irrelevant to determining the races as used today. The races are too broadly defined.

Also, for the record, the sources that have been provided, like the Encylcopedia Britannica, are typically viewed as very reputable. Those sources agree with the position that race Is social and not biological. Unless you have a source to counter it, you're just stating your opinion. Which is fine, but your opinion is also counter to the scientific community and results on this one, and you haven't provided much to back it up.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: Shins]
    #21878822 - 06/30/15 04:08 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
The debate started when I claimed that different genes and gene expressions can affect the propensity of certain traits and behaviour, namely criminal activity.

then the PC police came to try and dispute genetics and evolution by claiming its all social or because od poverty, which is total BS.




Genetics might affect behavior, sure, but is there any evidence to say it does on a race-wide level? Besides, do you have any evidence to counter the Encylocpedia Brit. when it says that there is no biogenetic basis for race? Because, without those two things, you've got nothing to build your argument on.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
 User Gallery
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: Enlil]
    #21878840 - 06/30/15 04:12 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Lol, you have just repeatedly said that because diseases act differently in different races, that race is a biological reality.  That's argument completely misses the whole core of what we're discussing.

We're discussing race in humans.  My position is that the biological notion of race doesn't apply to the human species.  That leaves only a socially constructed version.  It's really a simple position, actually.

Your argument is that races have certain genetic traits.

Those aren't contradictory positions at all.




why wouldn't the biological definition of race apply to humans?

Quote:

In biological classification, a race is an informal taxonomic rank, below the level of a species. It is used as a higher rank than strain, with several strains making up one race. Races may be distinct phenotypic populations within the same species, or they may be defined in other ways.




Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleShins
Fun guy
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21878854 - 06/30/15 04:15 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Its not only virii that affect different people differently,  behavioral traits do too.    Jist like how dogs, even within the same breed are selectively bred for their expressions of temperament. 

Just like dogs, different human genetic ezpressions also ezpress different temperaments. 

Humans are not magically exempt from this.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: SneezingPenis] * 1
    #21878862 - 06/30/15 04:17 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

It does apply. But there are no races of that kind defined for humans. There is the socially defined race, but not the biologically defined.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Original Sensible Seeds High THC Strains   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Shooting up schools is soooo 5 years ago.
( 1 2 all )
AaronEvil 2,237 24 03/26/05 12:21 AM
by AaronEvil
* Police shoot demonstrators mm. 2,660 15 10/12/18 06:26 PM
by christopera
* Chinese police shoot demonstrators lonestar2004 826 8 12/11/05 02:18 PM
by gregorio
* Rants and Ramblings on Capitalism and Socialism
( 1 2 all )
Silversoul 2,918 30 02/28/05 12:32 PM
by rogue_pixie
* The amount of effort that is required to be politically informed (Rant) RandalFlagg 496 3 09/12/05 08:13 PM
by The_Red_Crayon
* Why do certain ideologies seem to attract certain stances on issues?
( 1 2 3 4 all )
RandalFlagg 4,229 61 08/16/05 02:06 PM
by Arp
* 2nd amendment to justify shooting pigs?
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 all )
dee_N_ae 13,927 131 09/19/02 01:08 PM
by francisco
* To all republicans: a quick rant about socialism
( 1 2 3 all )
BrAiN 4,363 47 09/12/07 01:33 PM
by Jive turkey

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
8,205 topic views. 10 members, 3 guests and 3 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.033 seconds spending 0.01 seconds on 15 queries.