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Shins
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21877592 - 06/30/15 11:12 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I never said entire fields were influenced, although in reality they are, in this case I was saying that the claim that race is a social construct is a politically motivated one.
much of it springs out from backlash against nazis and malicious racists
Edited by Shins (06/30/15 11:35 AM)
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BoldAsLove
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: Shins]
#21877606 - 06/30/15 11:16 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Fine. Based on what are you making that claim? Why are the minority of scientists you agree with correct, while the majority are politically motivated?
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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Shins
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21877677 - 06/30/15 11:37 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Its not a majority, its a totally fringe claim to say that race is 100% a social construct. Almost no biologists believe that in reality.
Enlil is teting to manufactuee a consensus for political eeasons, which is my entiee point.
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BoldAsLove
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: Shins] 1
#21877783 - 06/30/15 12:03 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Let's consult the Encyclopedia Britannica on this one.
Quote:
Genetic studies in the late 20th century refuted the existence of biogenetically distinct races, and scholars now argue that “races” are cultural interventions reflecting specific attitudes and beliefs that were imposed on different populations in the wake of western European conquests beginning in the 15th century.
Quote:
Scientists have known for many decades that there is little correlation between “race,” used in its popular sense, and actual physical variations in the human species. In the United States, for example, the people identified as African Americans do not share a common set of physical characteristics. There is a greater range of skin colours, hair colours and textures, facial features, body sizes, and other physical traits in this category than in any other human aggregate identified as a single race.
Quote:
Although their numbers are dwindling, some scientists continue to believe that it is possible to divide Homo sapiens into discrete populations called races.
To me, that makes it seem like the majority of the scientists and scientific studies agree that race is a social construct. Especially the part saying genetic studies refute the existence of biologically distinct races. Do you disagree?
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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WAN
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21877999 - 06/30/15 12:55 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
BoldAsLove said: Let's consult the Encyclopedia Britannica on this one.
Quote:
Genetic studies in the late 20th century refuted the existence of biogenetically distinct races, and scholars now argue that “races” are cultural interventions reflecting specific attitudes and beliefs that were imposed on different populations in the wake of western European conquests beginning in the 15th century.
Quote:
Scientists have known for many decades that there is little correlation between “race,” used in its popular sense, and actual physical variations in the human species. In the United States, for example, the people identified as African Americans do not share a common set of physical characteristics. There is a greater range of skin colours, hair colours and textures, facial features, body sizes, and other physical traits in this category than in any other human aggregate identified as a single race.
Quote:
Although their numbers are dwindling, some scientists continue to believe that it is possible to divide Homo sapiens into discrete populations called races.
To me, that makes it seem like the majority of the scientists and scientific studies agree that race is a social construct. Especially the part saying genetic studies refute the existence of biologically distinct races. Do you disagree?
Just because there are no bio-genetically based differences between races, it doesn't mean that races don't exit. Think different breeds of dogs. A pitbull and a Pekingese are different breeds, yet they can still inter-breed. They look and behave differently. Same deal with the different races of humans.
Edited by WAN (06/30/15 12:56 PM)
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Shins
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: WAN]
#21878055 - 06/30/15 01:09 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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BoldAsLove
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: WAN]
#21878058 - 06/30/15 01:09 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think you're confusing species and race. Species are primarily defined by the ability to interbreed, though other factors are involved too. Races, species, and breeeds, are not the same thing. The whole point I'm making is that races do exist, but in a primarily social context, at least as they're currently defined. This is supported by what I posted above about there being no bio genetically distinct races.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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BoldAsLove
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: Shins]
#21878074 - 06/30/15 01:12 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(biology)
Nice try, but that article is not about race in the way we've been discussing. The only place humans are even mentioned on the whole Wikipedia page is at the very top where it says "For the anthropological term, see Race (human classification)"
Do you have a response to the Encyclopedia Britannica article I posted above?
EDIT: I found another great quote in that article.
"Because of the overlapping of traits that bear no relationship to one another (such as skin colour and hair texture) and the inability of scientists to cluster peoples into discrete racial packages, modern researchers have concluded that the concept of race has no biological validity."
I'm eagerly awaiting your response.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
Edited by BoldAsLove (06/30/15 01:16 PM)
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WAN
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21878100 - 06/30/15 01:20 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
BoldAsLove said:
Quote:
Shins said: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(biology)
Nice try, but that article is not about race in the way we've been discussing. The only place humans are even mentioned on the whole Wikipedia page is at the very top where it says "For the anthropological term, see Race (human classification)"
Do you have a response to the Encyclopedia Britannica article I posted above?
EDIT: I found another great quote in that article.
"Because of the overlapping of traits that bear no relationship to one another (such as skin colour and hair texture) and the inability of scientists to cluster peoples into discrete racial packages, modern researchers have concluded that the concept of race has no biological validity."
I'm eagerly awaiting your response.
I don't understand why the concept of "race" requires the presence of "biological validity" or whatever it is that you want, in order for it to become "real". When I go outside and I see a person with fair skin, blond hair, and deep-set eyes, I can tell he is a white person. When I see a person with dark skin, nappy hair, flared nostrils, I can tell he is a black person. I know that there is no "biological validity" behind race, but this doesn't make the white person appear less white to me, nor the black person less black. So I really don't see your point.
I am trying to think of an analogy. How about the concept of "human rights". Out in the natural world, there is nothing that physically exists that says it's a "right". Yet we still recognize and acknowledge that we have rights.
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BoldAsLove
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: WAN]
#21878111 - 06/30/15 01:22 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I'm not arguing that race isn't real. I'm arguing that it's a social construct. A couple of people in this thread have refuted that, and so I'm providing evidence that race is indeed a social construct and not a biological one. That's the argument I'm making.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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WAN
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21878135 - 06/30/15 01:28 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
BoldAsLove said: I'm not arguing that race isn't real. I'm arguing that it's a social construct. A couple of people in this thread have refuted that, and so I'm providing evidence that race is indeed a social construct and not a biological one. That's the argument I'm making.
Oh I see. It's just that when people (not just you) say "race is a social construct", it kind of sounds to me like they are trying to say that races aren't real.
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Shins
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21878166 - 06/30/15 01:35 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Only a sociologist wohld say race is a social construct. Biologists know that race is inpart classified genetically. Most biologists use race to classify a combination between genetics, adaptioj to environment and adaptation to social structure ( which is in reality the same as environment, its redundant. )
saying that human society is the only thing that has created different gene expressions is just rediculous, and it is a claim that is in conflict with dawrains theory of evolution. Obviously other things, like genes and environment affect the way an animal evolves. Society is not the only environmental infuence. "Race is a social construct" is 100% a political claim in order to deny the uncomfortable facts about the biological differences In people.
After world war two, there was a big push to try an discredit biologic racial difference simply because the nazis used it to justify their actions.
just because nazis and racists used biology and genetics to justify their crimes, does ot mean there is no vality to that science. And accepting reality doesn't make to a nazi or racist either.
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Shins
Fun guy



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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: Shins]
#21878202 - 06/30/15 01:42 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Enlil
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: Shins]
#21878203 - 06/30/15 01:42 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said: Only a sociologist wohld say race is a social construct. .
Really? Then why is it that physical anthropologists and biologists largely agree it's a social construct. Are they frauds? Are they not "real" anthropologists? Are they not "real" biologists?
It seems to me that you're claiming that any biologist that thinks race is a social construct is lying or incompetent. Do you have any authority at all to make that claim? Or is this just a gut feeling based on your deeply-seeded beliefs about race?
And from your source:
"Pure races, in the sense of genetically homogenous populations, do not exist in the human species today, nor is there any evidence that they have ever existed in the past"
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WAN
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: Enlil]
#21878213 - 06/30/15 01:44 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Deeply "seated" beliefs, not "seeded"
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Enlil
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: WAN]
#21878218 - 06/30/15 01:46 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yeah, the phone doesn't always get that correct.
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Shins
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: Enlil]
#21878246 - 06/30/15 01:51 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Shins said: Only a sociologist wohld say race is a social construct. .
Really? Then why is it that physical anthropologists and biologists largely agree it's a social construct. Are they frauds? Are they not "real" anthropologists? Are they not "real" biologists?
It seems to me that you're claiming that any biologist that thinks race is a social construct is lying or incompetent. Do you have any authority at all to make that claim? Or is this just a gut feeling based on your deeply-seeded beliefs about race?
And from your source:
"Pure races, in the sense of genetically homogenous populations, do not exist in the human species today, nor is there any evidence that they have ever existed in the past"
They don't agree, you are misinformed or lying. They agree that it is in part a sociak construct, but society is merelt one factor among many.
did I ever claim the existence of "pure" races? Some people are more similar than others however.
Edited by Shins (06/30/15 01:57 PM)
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Enlil
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: Shins]
#21878250 - 06/30/15 01:52 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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So your source doesn't support that biological races exist in humans. Got anything better? Perhaps something from stormfront?
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BoldAsLove
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: Shins]
#21878252 - 06/30/15 01:53 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said: Most biologists use race to classify a combination between genetics, adaptioj to environment and adaptation to social structure ( which is in reality the same as environment, its redundant. )
Can you provide a source that shows that most biologists use race to classify genetic differences in humans? Because all the sources provided so far says that isn't true.
Quote:
saying that human society is the only thing that has created different gene expressions is just rediculous, and it is a claim that is in conflict with dawrains theory of evolution. Obviously other things, like genes and environment affect the way an animal evolves. Society is not the only environmental infuence. "Race is a social construct" is 100% a political claim in order to deny the uncomfortable facts about the biological differences In people.
Race is not the same thing as different gene expression. Every human has different gene expression, therefore every human would be a different race. The black and white distinctions of race that are commonly used today (black,white,Asian, etc) are socially determined. Biology has nothing to do with it. Every source provided so far says as much, can you provide evidence to the contrary?]
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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WAN
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21878262 - 06/30/15 01:56 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
BoldAsLove said:
Race is not the same thing as different gene expression. Every human has different gene expression, therefore every human would be a different race. The black and white distinctions of race that are commonly used today (black,white,Asian, etc) are socially determined. Biology has nothing to do with it. Every source provided so far says as much, can you provide evidence to the contrary?]
I think it's more correct to say that races are visually determined. You can look at a (mostly un-mixed) person and tell what race he belongs to. Just by looking.
How does one "socially determine" something, anyway?
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