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Enlil
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: SneezingPenis]
#21856016 - 06/25/15 04:49 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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I don't know about "reparations", but certainly it's about some sense of justice, yes.
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: SneezingPenis]
#21856027 - 06/25/15 04:51 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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If you think I support black people saying racist things about white people you're dead wrong. There is no double standard here.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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SneezingPenis
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: Enlil]
#21856058 - 06/25/15 04:58 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
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SneezingPenis said:
but again, you do not get to emphatically state what a symbolic thing stands for unambiguously and unilaterally. if the flag means racism to you, fine, but jump up your own ass if you think so highly of yourself as to determine what something means to me.
I never said what the flag means. I said what it symbolizes. Those aren't the same thing at all. A symbol is a symbol for a reason, and community standards are what determine what something symbolizes. A swastika symbolizes facism and intolerance. It is absolutely NOT always used to promote either, and has historically been used for much more peaceful purposes....still, whether we like it or not, the swastika symbolizes intolerance.
The confederate flag, to me, conjures images of being a kid and listening to david allen coe and Alabama, and watching dukes of hazard. I don't feel that it's a racist message, even though coe was clearly a racist. Still, I recognize that it symbolizes racism.
Today, we see a lot of people claiming that "nigger" isn't racist because they've invented a new meaning that somehow isn't racist. It is racist. It is a racist word with a racist meaning and a whole lot of racist history behind it. You can scream it and then claim you mean something else, but you always knew or should have known the message you were sending with that word. The confederate flag is the same way. Display it all you want, but don't pretend that a large portion of the population won't see it as a symbol of racial oppression.
Coe's drummer is black (and married to a white woman) FYI.
you guys are playing a really weak semantics game here.... hell it isn't even semantics, it is flat out denying part of a definition of a word. what something means is the exact same thing as saying what it symbolizes. It is entirely subjective and people have a right to be deeply offended by it, or get misty-eyed over the greatness of the south or whatever. But you cannot say that one meaning trumps another meaning, or that one persons umbrage trumps another persons pride.
you still haven't answered my question about what other word, with unambiguous meaning, when used makes you a ______-ist?
If someone sees me reading Mein Kampf on a bus and it has a large swastika as the cover, are they correct in assuming that I am a pro-nazi anti-semite racist? or am I just a guy reading a book?
you are trying to make an objective case for a subjective thing.
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SneezingPenis
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#21856063 - 06/25/15 04:59 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: If you think I support black people saying racist things about white people you're dead wrong. There is no double standard here.
so you are equally outraged when you hear someone say "redneck" or "cracker" as you are when someone says "nigger"?
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SneezingPenis
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#21856074 - 06/25/15 05:03 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Bigbadwooof said: Saying the word 'nigger' is racist because it is a racial slur. How is this so complicated? It is a derogatory term for black people. That word has negative connotations toward a race.
You're mischaracterizing my argument. Subjugation of a group is not always racist. Subjugation of the poor is not racist. It depends on the group. If you are disenfranchising black or non-white people exclusively, you are racist.
again, semantics. no, subjugating poor people is not technically racist, but you know (at least i hope you do) what we are talking about.
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I don't have 'disdain' for Mexican culture. I am just not terribly fond of it. I don't care to immerse myself in their culture. I don't like mariachi bands. There is a serious distinction here. I don't like black music or ebonics either. That doesn't make me racist. It's when people say, as zappa has said to me, that black people are just a more violent people than white folks. They get in more legal trouble because it's in their nature, as black folks, to commit more crimes. Clearly racist.
black people do commit far more violent crime. how is a fact racist?
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I actually am against hate and violence in all of its forms.
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What's your fucking point? I'll tell you what. If my mother was black, and someone called her a nigger, I'd punch them in the nose myself. It's an abusive word.
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Enlil
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: SneezingPenis]
#21856080 - 06/25/15 05:04 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
SneezingPenis said:
you still haven't answered my question about what other word, with unambiguous meaning, when used makes you a ______-ist?
If someone sees me reading Mein Kampf on a bus and it has a large swastika as the cover, are they correct in assuming that I am a pro-nazi anti-semite racist? or am I just a guy reading a book?
Saying "nigger" doesn't necessarily mean someone is a racist. I don't know of any word that automatically means someone's a racist.
Reading mein kampf doesn't mean you're pro-Nazi.
I think you're making a lot of assumptions here and arguing against strawmen of your own creation.
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: SneezingPenis]
#21856138 - 06/25/15 05:20 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Saying nigger doesn't make you a racist. I have said it several times in this discussion. Calling a black person a nigger does.
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Black people do commit far more violent crime. how is a fact racist?
You are correct. That is an observation of reality. Now, saying that black people are inherently more violent, and that's why they commit more violent crimes, is racist.
Do you believe they commit more violent crimes because they are innately more violent?
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#21856147 - 06/25/15 05:23 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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By the way, calling someone a redneck is not the same as calling a black person a nigger. A redneck is an uneducated person who does a bunch of ignorant stupid shit. I could call a backwoods black person a redneck too!
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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SneezingPenis
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: Enlil]
#21856212 - 06/25/15 05:36 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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I really just want you guys to admit that it is an irrational over reaction and your views are tantamount to thought policing.
Everyone stereotypes, it is a survival mechanism. If people wearing green scarves keep slapping you in the face, you generally begin to despise and avoid people wearing green scarves. People in the north have the luxury of not being surrounded and confronted with black culture daily. They sit in their gentrified suburbs and know all 3 of the black people in the county and wonder what on earth could possibly make people dislike black people so much, because the huxstables next door are delightful.
If more times than not you were a victim of some crime at the hands of a black person, you stop giving a shit if their feelings are hurt when you clutch your purse tighter as they walk by, or lock the car doors. there are only 2 ways to become racist: taught it, or conditioned. I personally don't know anyone that was raised racist, but I know a shit load of people who became racist after multiple unsavory interactions with various black people... then it gets compounded by the media and then people making them feel ashamed for having a logical reaction to a litany of shitty encounters with black people.
Black people create racist people far more than a backwoods kkk rally.
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SneezingPenis
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#21856216 - 06/25/15 05:36 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: Saying nigger doesn't make you a racist. I have said it several times in this discussion. Calling a black person a nigger does.
Quote:
Black people do commit far more violent crime. how is a fact racist?
You are correct. That is an observation of reality. Now, saying that black people are inherently more violent, and that's why they commit more violent crimes, is racist.
Do you believe they commit more violent crimes because they are innately more violent?
how else would you analyze that data?
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SneezingPenis
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#21856218 - 06/25/15 05:37 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: By the way, calling someone a redneck is not the same as calling a black person a nigger. A redneck is an uneducated person who does a bunch of ignorant stupid shit. I could call a backwoods black person a redneck too!
thats crazy, because my definition of a nigger is an uneducated person who does a bunch of ignorant stupid shit.
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Enlil
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: SneezingPenis]
#21856260 - 06/25/15 05:45 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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You're just making up meanings to words, though. That doesn't change the definition of the word or make it any less racist. You can pretend that "cow" means "chicken", but that doesn't actually change the meaning of the words.
Quote:
SneezingPenis said: I really just want you guys to admit that it is an irrational over reaction and your views are tantamount to thought policing.
There's nothing irrational at all, and policing has nothing to do with it. People are free to think what they want. I am free to think someone is uneducated for being a racist, and he is free to think that black people are inferior. That's how freedom works.
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SneezingPenis
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: Enlil]
#21856328 - 06/25/15 05:56 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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im not sure what the first part of your post is referring to.
so it isn't thought policing, but you think that it stems from a lack of education? just like the other guy said that there needs to be some sort of education that goes on to prevent people from having racist tendencies.
that is thought policing. If you think that we should condition and teach kids at an early age to shape their philosophy in a manner that dissuades people from having a racist ideology, that is thought policing. I am an extremely educated person and I am a racist (by todays popular standards)... how did that happen?
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: SneezingPenis]
#21856393 - 06/25/15 06:11 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
SneezingPenis said: im not sure what the first part of your post is referring to.
so it isn't thought policing, but you think that it stems from a lack of education? just like the other guy said that there needs to be some sort of education that goes on to prevent people from having racist tendencies.
that is thought policing. If you think that we should condition and teach kids at an early age to shape their philosophy in a manner that dissuades people from having a racist ideology, that is thought policing. I am an extremely educated person and I am a racist (by todays popular standards)... how did that happen?
I don't think you're quite understanding me. We'll take your argument about people with green scarves. There is a reason behind everything that people do. If people are wearing green scarves and simultaneously committing crimes regularly, they are likely in a gang. I would investigate further. However, this goes back to something I find myself reiterating quite frequently on this forum. Correlation does not equal causation. The scarves aren't turning people into criminals, that is just irrational. It is something else. We're not suggesting, as you imply, that people be brainwashed. We're suggesting that people be educated. Racism is a form of ignorance. Ignorance stems from lack of education and understanding.
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how else would you analyze that data?
Really? You seem so much brighter than that. I could go into the whole history of African American people, but I'll just grab a few highlights. If you recall, during Martin Luther King's days, the black people were most certainly not the violent ones. It was the white people perpetuating violence on peaceful people walking down the street. If you recall, it was the white people who enslaved a race and brought them over on boats to do forced labor and be sexually abused by them. You see, if you step back, and put down your ignorance, it becomes clear that there is some other phenomena causing black people to be violent. Or maybe a compounding of things. If we look at white people, we find a correlation between poverty and violence. Take it from there, my friend! ;-)
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Enlil
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: SneezingPenis]
#21856431 - 06/25/15 06:18 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
SneezingPenis said:
that is thought policing. If you think that we should condition and teach kids at an early age to shape their philosophy in a manner that dissuades people from having a racist ideology, that is thought policing. I am an extremely educated person and I am a racist (by todays popular standards)... how did that happen?
I said nothing about conditioning anyone. The more educated a person is, the less likely he/she is to have irrational belief systems such as Christianity, racism, conspiracy theories, etc. That has nothing to do with conditioning and everything to do with learning how to think critically.
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SneezingPenis
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#21856602 - 06/25/15 06:55 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
SneezingPenis said: im not sure what the first part of your post is referring to.
so it isn't thought policing, but you think that it stems from a lack of education? just like the other guy said that there needs to be some sort of education that goes on to prevent people from having racist tendencies.
that is thought policing. If you think that we should condition and teach kids at an early age to shape their philosophy in a manner that dissuades people from having a racist ideology, that is thought policing. I am an extremely educated person and I am a racist (by todays popular standards)... how did that happen?
I don't think you're quite understanding me. We'll take your argument about people with green scarves. There is a reason behind everything that people do. If people are wearing green scarves and simultaneously committing crimes regularly, they are likely in a gang. I would investigate further. However, this goes back to something I find myself reiterating quite frequently on this forum. Correlation does not equal causation. The scarves aren't turning people into criminals, that is just irrational. It is something else.
you miss the point. It is a self preservation mechanism to avoid people wearing green scarves. It is innate in us all. You don't even have to believe the the green scarves are causing people to slap you in the face to still just not risk getting slapped in the face by someone even wearing green anything. Just avoid people wearing scarves and green and probably wont get slapped. It isn't really irrational if you put it back into the context of race...
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We're not suggesting, as you imply, that people be brainwashed. We're suggesting that people be educated. Racism is a form of ignorance. Ignorance stems from lack of education and understanding.
you keep saying racism is ignorance, but I don't think you guys understand what that word means. especially after I have given some (imo) very rational and informed reasons why people could come to adopt an aversion to black people (or really any group).
Quote:
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how else would you analyze that data?
Really? You seem so much brighter than that. I could go into the whole history of African American people, but I'll just grab a few highlights. If you recall, during Martin Luther King's days, the black people were most certainly not the violent ones. It was the white people perpetuating violence on peaceful people walking down the street. If you recall, it was the white people who enslaved a race and brought them over on boats to do forced labor and be sexually abused by them. You see, if you step back, and put down your ignorance, it becomes clear that there is some other phenomena causing black people to be violent. Or maybe a compounding of things. If we look at white people, we find a correlation between poverty and violence. Take it from there, my friend! ;-)
this has nothing to do with the fact that black people comprise 14% of the american populace yet account for 30%-50% of individual violent crime categories... what does that have to do with MLK? Even if you were to cite poverty as a contributing factor to violence, no other race is rocking numbers double and triple that of their population. 50% of murders are caused by a group that makes up 14% of the population, while white that make up 63% of the population account for slightly less murders. That basically means that a black person is 5x more likely to murder someone than a white person. I am sure that if you looked at the poorest 14% of white people and added up their murders it is not statistically possible for them to account for as many murders as the black population.
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SneezingPenis
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: Enlil]
#21856613 - 06/25/15 06:57 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
SneezingPenis said:
that is thought policing. If you think that we should condition and teach kids at an early age to shape their philosophy in a manner that dissuades people from having a racist ideology, that is thought policing. I am an extremely educated person and I am a racist (by todays popular standards)... how did that happen?
I said nothing about conditioning anyone. The more educated a person is, the less likely he/she is to have irrational belief systems such as Christianity, racism, conspiracy theories, etc. That has nothing to do with conditioning and everything to do with learning how to think critically.
you haven't exactly illustrated how illogical racism is so far.... other than just stating it. either flavor of racism: racial inferiority and disdain.
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Enlil
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: SneezingPenis]
#21856655 - 06/25/15 07:05 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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First, an educated person would realize that race is a social construct, not some genetic difference between people. There aren't distinct races at all, but a spectrum of genetic traits. Society has drawn arbitrary lines, but those lines aren't based on anything except historical perceptions based on where, when, and how different people encountered each other.
Given this fact, differentiating between people based on these arbitrarily-drawn social lines is completely irrational.
In addition, you seem to be confusing a cultural bias with a racial bias. It is perfectly rational to form opinions about different cultures and compare those cultures to your own either favorably or unfavorably. For instance, it isn't racist to say that single baby mamas with multiple absent baby daddies are garbage. That's not racist at all. That is judging a cultural phenomenon. Is that cultural phenomenon largely perpetrated by African-Americans? Yes. That doesn't suddenly make it racist, though.
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: SneezingPenis]
#21856710 - 06/25/15 07:19 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Interesting. So you are actually making the argument that black people are inherently more violent in their nature, because they are black. You fail to see my point regarding MLK? That under all of that pressure, while being physically violently oppressed, they did not follow suite? They did not become violent, but they are prone to violent tendencies?
I dunno. This is just getting stupid. Do you really not understand my arguments, or are you just trying to ignore them?
I see what you're saying about the green scarves. It is a good point. Don't you think that if people were educated further about what was going on they might react in a more appropriate manner than avoiding all people with green? Especially if the majority of their encounters were of no consequence? (Unless you're going to make the case that the majority of encounters with black people are negative)
I'm from a big city in Michigan. There are a lot of black folks there. They don't only exist in the South, contrary to what you may have been told. Also, I left it to you to extrapolate, but poverty is only one contributing factor to black violence. There are many more. Do I have to spoon feed it to you?
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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SneezingPenis
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: Enlil]
#21856956 - 06/25/15 08:17 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: First, an educated person would realize that race is a social construct, not some genetic difference between people. There aren't distinct races at all, but a spectrum of genetic traits. Society has drawn arbitrary lines, but those lines aren't based on anything except historical perceptions based on where, when, and how different people encountered each other.
Given this fact, differentiating between people based on these arbitrarily-drawn social lines is completely irrational.
In addition, you seem to be confusing a cultural bias with a racial bias. It is perfectly rational to form opinions about different cultures and compare those cultures to your own either favorably or unfavorably. For instance, it isn't racist to say that single baby mamas with multiple absent baby daddies are garbage. That's not racist at all. That is judging a cultural phenomenon. Is that cultural phenomenon largely perpetrated by African-Americans? Yes. That doesn't suddenly make it racist, though.
what? race is a social construct? what? tell that to sickle cell anemia and diabetes, Im sure the black community would love for them to know. there are large genetic differences across race, and not just skin pigment. (and I'm ignorant?)
And I have been saying since OP almost that cultural bias is now considered a part of the growing umbrella term that is "racism". We are at a point where someone will call you a racist for merely stating statistical facts about black people that aren't favorable. The entire concept of racism is based on genetic superiority, yet no one calls you a racist for saying black people run faster and have bigger dicks on average... because they are like compliments. It all comes back to this underdog complex where hating every other race is understandable/less "wrong" than hating black people. Seriously, go tell a racist mexican/asian or homophobic joke and compare the reaction to telling a racist black joke.
what is irrational is your grade of reprisal and backlash against people who are racist towards black people. None of you are truly anti-racism or anti-hate or anti-violence if you give qualitative rankings based on what race is at the receiving end.
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