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Enlil
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: SneezingPenis] 1
#21855361 - 06/25/15 02:00 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Another pointless rant. Who cares what flag was flying? This kid didn't shoot those people because he was raised to have a solid moral compass. Yes, it's upbringing. Yes, it's societal pressure.
Racism, like all -isms, is thought. It's an ideology. It's not conduct. It's not action. It's an ideology, and perhaps even a religion.
Killing a black man isn't racism. Deciding to kill someone because he's black is. The racism precedes the action, and the racism should be vilified and should be discouraged. That doesn't mean the conduct shouldn't be vilified and discouraged as well, though.
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SneezingPenis
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: Enlil]
#21855432 - 06/25/15 02:14 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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hate is hate dude. You cannot qualitatively rank types of hate. Violence and racism are not the same thing. Violence is violence. If Dylan Roof didn't channel his violence through irrationally blaming black people for his shitty lot in life, then he would have channeled it through some other irrational reason for why his life was shitty and shot that group of people.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: SneezingPenis] 1
#21855456 - 06/25/15 02:19 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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You'll have to forgive me if I don't trust your crystal ball as much as you do.
It does sound like you're starting to acknowledge that racism is a form of hate. As such, it can absolutely incite passion into people and perhaps push someone that extra step toward violence. Sure, there are plenty of other reasons for violence, but to say that racism doesn't increase violence is absurd beyond words.
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: SneezingPenis]
#21855494 - 06/25/15 02:27 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
SneezingPenis said: hate is hate dude. You cannot qualitatively rank types of hate. Violence and racism are not the same thing. Violence is violence. If Dylan Roof didn't channel his violence through irrationally blaming black people for his shitty lot in life, then he would have channeled it through some other irrational reason for why his life was shitty and shot that group of people.
Racism is a precursor to violence. Even the oldschool intellectual brand of eugenics led to violent conclusions of genocide. It is and always has been violent, which is why our society generally denounces racism.
Who's to say that Dylan Roof's life was shitty? (I don't think we can infer so much from his bowl cut alone! ) How can you say he didn't act out these things purely as a physical manifestation of his race-based ideological irrationality.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
Edited by Bigbadwooof (06/25/15 02:32 PM)
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SneezingPenis
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: Enlil]
#21855569 - 06/25/15 02:51 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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yeah racism is hate, or even mild dislike by todays standards. I am considered a racist by todays standards. While I don't dislike people based on the color of their skin, I dislike them based on the toxic aspects of a culture that they choose to express through their demeanor, speech and outward appearance. I have never had any violent thoughts or tendencies born from my immediate dislike of a person who is personally celebrating the toxic aspects of black culture.
I wish you could understand the double standard you are presenting. If the flag is emblematic of a toxic aspect of southern culture and we admonish/insult those who choose to incorporate that into their outward appearance, why is that not a form of racism or at the very least stereotyping (which is basically racism sans race)? you have a set of criteria for hating a group. Criteria A is acceptable, criteria B, is not acceptable and in fact can generate criteria A type hatred... which is acceptable. Do you not get how ridiculously arbitrary that is? Might as well say "its ok to hate people who wear hats, but you shut the fuck up if you hate left handed people".
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: SneezingPenis] 1
#21855622 - 06/25/15 03:05 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Do you not get how ridiculously arbitrary that is? Might as well say "its ok to hate people who wear hats, but you shut the fuck up if you hate left handed people".
Really? Is it really that hard to grasp my argument? Am I just saying random insane nonsensical things, as quoted here? Come on.
So, let me get this right, from your argument, one could extrapolate that, given your views, it's just as wrong to hate Nazi's as it is wrong for Nazi's to hate Jews.
Did you actually read what I wrote? Or what Enlil wrote? Both are quite compelling arguments, I think.
Regardless, you say you dislike black culture. I dislike many aspects of black culture also. Shit, I live in little Mexico, and I dislike many aspects of Mexican culture. That is not the same as racism. When you start calling people 'niggers' as you have done, you have crossed into racism. That is based on skin color. If you call white people who embrace black culture 'niggers', then you are using the word outside of its actual application, and you're a fucking idiot. It is a racial slurr. It is racist.
Racism is when you turn someone down for a job because they are black. Or deny them housing or education. When you make them drink at separate fountains, eat at separate tables. When you have a two tier judicial system which makes exceptions for one people based on their skin color, but not the other. When you shoot people for being black/white. If you feel that skin color has any sort of significance regarding the character of a person, their capabilities, their integrity, or their intelligence.
We are not talking about cultural differences. You don't have to glowingly receive all of the cultures of the world. I think most cultural norms are ridiculous, personally, even in white culture.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
Edited by Bigbadwooof (06/25/15 03:11 PM)
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Enlil
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: SneezingPenis]
#21855748 - 06/25/15 03:43 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
SneezingPenis said:
I wish you could understand the double standard you are presenting. If the flag is emblematic of a toxic aspect of southern culture and we admonish/insult those who choose to incorporate that into their outward appearance, why is that not a form of racism or at the very least stereotyping (which is basically racism sans race)?
I never said anything about any flag in this thread or what it means to wear or display it. The confederate flag is a symbol of racism. That doesn't mean that it's always intended as such, but it certainly is a symbol of a racist ideology. Similarly, a cross is a symbol of Christianity although that same symbol is often used for other purposes.
I would never support a ban of any flag under any circumstances.
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: Enlil]
#21855824 - 06/25/15 04:02 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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I wouldn't support a ban of the flag either. I don't think it has any place in front of government buildings, or public squares though. Isn't that what this discussion is about?
I may very well be wrong, but I thought what was being discussed was preventing the confederate flag from being displayed outside government institutions, and community owned places like that.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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SneezingPenis
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#21855841 - 06/25/15 04:07 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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my point is that it is..... ugh I hate trying to give it a qualitative value.... it is "ok" to hate the Nazi's for what they have DONE, not for what they believed or thought.
It is understandable to dislike/hate Dylan Roof for what he has done, not for what you believe his thoughts were.
how can saying a word make you racist? does saying "fuck" make you a nymphomaniac? is there any other word that by saying it makes you something? why does this word have that one power that no other word has? does saying "amen" make you a christian?
how is using a word "less racist" than despising the barrio for being the barrio? you say that uttering a word makes you a racist, then go on to say that subjugation of a group is racist... but your flavor of disdain for mexican-american culture is somehow not racist? why, because you don't call them beaners or wetbacks when they piss you off wasting your time at the Cricket store?
my argument isn't compelling to you because, like most people, you have a zero tolerance policy for anything remotely racist adjacent and refuse to listen to any reasonable argument that doesn't uniformly and unambiguously oppose whatever loose parameters you seem to have for discerning racism.
let me ask you this... have you had any violent tendencies/thoughts against people you perceive as racist? be honest, but would you not applaud if some guy yelling "niggerniggernigger!" got his nose broken? because you really aren't against hate or violence, just a single arbitrary form of hate and violence.
This whole hyper white guilt contest of who can prove to be the most anti-racist is just a form of Neo-McCarthyism--think like we do, or get labeled unfavorably and gtfo.
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Enlil
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: SneezingPenis]
#21855850 - 06/25/15 04:09 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Nobody has advocated violence against racists in this thread, but people absolutely should be judged based on their chosen systems of belief.
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SneezingPenis
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: Enlil]
#21855874 - 06/25/15 04:15 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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im asking you to answer a question honestly. if someone was yelling "nigger" in a public place and got punched, would you cheer?
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SneezingPenis
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: SneezingPenis]
#21855878 - 06/25/15 04:16 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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or better yet, do you think it is justifiable for someone to punch a presumed racist in the face?
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SneezingPenis
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: Enlil]
#21855898 - 06/25/15 04:23 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
SneezingPenis said:
I wish you could understand the double standard you are presenting. If the flag is emblematic of a toxic aspect of southern culture and we admonish/insult those who choose to incorporate that into their outward appearance, why is that not a form of racism or at the very least stereotyping (which is basically racism sans race)?
I never said anything about any flag in this thread or what it means to wear or display it. The confederate flag is a symbol of racism. That doesn't mean that it's always intended as such, but it certainly is a symbol of a racist ideology. Similarly, a cross is a symbol of Christianity although that same symbol is often used for other purposes.
I would never support a ban of any flag under any circumstances.
my point had nothing to do with the abolishment(? since apparently we do not share the same definition of the word "ban") of the flag.
but again, you do not get to emphatically state what a symbolic thing stands for unambiguously and unilaterally. if the flag means racism to you, fine, but jump up your own ass if you think so highly of yourself as to determine what something means to me.
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Enlil
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Posts: 65,510
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: SneezingPenis]
#21855909 - 06/25/15 04:25 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
SneezingPenis said: im asking you to answer a question honestly. if someone was yelling "nigger" in a public place and got punched, would you cheer?
Absolutely not.
Quote:
SneezingPenis said: or better yet, do you think it is justifiable for someone to punch a presumed racist in the face?
Of course not.
I support a person's right to freedom of speech. If someone wants to be rude in public, let them. Of course, If I saw someone shouting "nigger", I wouldn't think too highly of them and that alone would likely disqualify them from ever being a friend, colleague, or employee of mine.
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Enlil
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: SneezingPenis]
#21855942 - 06/25/15 04:33 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
SneezingPenis said:
but again, you do not get to emphatically state what a symbolic thing stands for unambiguously and unilaterally. if the flag means racism to you, fine, but jump up your own ass if you think so highly of yourself as to determine what something means to me.
I never said what the flag means. I said what it symbolizes. Those aren't the same thing at all. A symbol is a symbol for a reason, and community standards are what determine what something symbolizes. A swastika symbolizes facism and intolerance. It is absolutely NOT always used to promote either, and has historically been used for much more peaceful purposes....still, whether we like it or not, the swastika symbolizes intolerance.
The confederate flag, to me, conjures images of being a kid and listening to david allen coe and Alabama, and watching dukes of hazard. I don't feel that it's a racist message, even though coe was clearly a racist. Still, I recognize that it symbolizes racism.
Today, we see a lot of people claiming that "nigger" isn't racist because they've invented a new meaning that somehow isn't racist. It is racist. It is a racist word with a racist meaning and a whole lot of racist history behind it. You can scream it and then claim you mean something else, but you always knew or should have known the message you were sending with that word. The confederate flag is the same way. Display it all you want, but don't pretend that a large portion of the population won't see it as a symbol of racial oppression.
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: SneezingPenis]
#21855944 - 06/25/15 04:33 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Saying the word 'nigger' is racist because it is a racial slur. How is this so complicated? It is a derogatory term for black people. That word has negative connotations toward a race.
You're mischaracterizing my argument. Subjugation of a group is not always racist. Subjugation of the poor is not racist. It depends on the group. If you are disenfranchising black or non-white people exclusively, you are racist.
Quote:
but your flavor of disdain for mexican-american culture is somehow not racist?
I don't have 'disdain' for Mexican culture. I am just not terribly fond of it. I don't care to immerse myself in their culture. I don't like mariachi bands. There is a serious distinction here. I don't like black music or ebonics either. That doesn't make me racist. It's when people say, as zappa has said to me, that black people are just a more violent people than white folks. They get in more legal trouble because it's in their nature, as black folks, to commit more crimes. Clearly racist.
Quote:
let me ask you this... have you had any violent tendencies/thoughts against people you perceive as racist? be honest, but would you not applaud if some guy yelling "niggerniggernigger!" got his nose broken? because you really aren't against hate or violence, just a single arbitrary form of hate and violence.
I actually am against hate and violence in all of its forms. I feel there is a better way to handle things. Education is one of them. Educated people tend to be less racist, because racism is utter ignorance. I think a guy yelling 'niggerniggernigger' should not be given any respect, as he is clearly a fool. That's about it.
I apologize if you are hurt by the intolerance of intolerance. I think we, as a nation, have seen more than enough pain from racism, and we are no longer willing to stand by and watch any longer. My deepest apologies.
Edited by Bigbadwooof (06/25/15 04:39 PM)
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SneezingPenis
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: Enlil]
#21855966 - 06/25/15 04:40 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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bullshit....
I'll continue this discussion with someone who isn't playing the role of armchair philosopher.
at least admit this: the overwhelming majority of people would applaud and cheer.
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Enlil
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: SneezingPenis]
#21855985 - 06/25/15 04:43 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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I don't know if that's true or not, but that's typical of Americans. The same would be true if a man called a woman a cunt and the woman slapped the man. People would cheer.
Turn the situation around and the woman calls the man an asshole. If he hits her, everyone jumps on his shit.
This is about rooting for the oppressed...for the underdog, as it were. African-Americans have taken a beating, figuratively and literally, so people are going to have less patience for a white guy engaging in more of the same.
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SneezingPenis
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: Enlil]
#21856005 - 06/25/15 04:47 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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so you agree that it is a double standard and deep down it isn't about truly rebuking hate and violence, but rather some fucked up form of vigilante reparations type justice.
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: A few of my rants regarding SC shooting... [Re: SneezingPenis]
#21856011 - 06/25/15 04:48 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Would you cheer for the guy yelling nigger?
Would you cheer for the guy who punched him?
What's your fucking point? I'll tell you what. If my mother was black, and someone called her a nigger, I'd punch them in the nose myself. It's an abusive word.
I don't know what other brand of philosophy there is, by the way, but I assure you I believe what I say quite powerfully. I don't just ramble nonsense.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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