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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! * 1
    #21842947 - 06/22/15 07:24 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

France scuttled its 75% millionaire tax in January, because unemployment surged as investment came to a crawl.

Well it seems that no one wants to invest in a country that taxes the shit out people who make money.  The tax was so bad even the Liberal Left turned against it.

DUH---BUT LETS MAKE THE RICH PAY MORE!!!  It doesn't work--just proved between 2012 and this Year in the People's Democratic Socialist Republic of France.


IN YOUR FACE LEFTIES~~!!!!!  :lolsy::highfive:

http://news.yahoo.com/france-drops-super-tax-millionaires-072915575--finance.html

A sample of one of the early protests against the tax:

http://techpresident.com/news/23052/frances-first-social-media-campaign-forces-government-roll-back-proposed-tax-increases


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: starfire_xes]
    #21843948 - 06/22/15 11:01 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
France scuttled its 75% millionaire tax in January, because unemployment surged as investment came to a crawl.



That's not why they got rid of it.  They got rid of it because 75% is a bit extreme.  Unemployment surged because of austerity measures which I've already shown in a prior post have failed.

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Well it seems that no one wants to invest in a country that taxes the shit out people who make money.  The tax was so bad even the Liberal Left turned against it.



Why would investors care how much rich people pay in taxes?  It doesn't impact the company's bottom line one penny.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21847301 - 06/23/15 07:22 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

starfire_xes said:
France scuttled its 75% millionaire tax in January, because unemployment surged as investment came to a crawl.



That's not why they got rid of it.  They got rid of it because 75% is a bit extreme.  Unemployment surged because of austerity measures which I've already shown in a prior post have failed.

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Well it seems that no one wants to invest in a country that taxes the shit out people who make money.  The tax was so bad even the Liberal Left turned against it.



Why would investors care how much rich people pay in taxes?  It doesn't impact the company's bottom line one penny.





Oh, 75% is 'extreme'  OK.  How much is 'not extreme' how much can you tax the rich before they take their money and run? 

Oh by the way, "The top marginal tax rate used to be 90% and the economy was much better" 

Hmmmmm.....where have I heard that before?  :highfive:


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: starfire_xes]
    #21847597 - 06/23/15 08:20 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Oh by the way, "The top marginal tax rate used to be 90% and the economy was much better" 

Hmmmmm.....where have I heard that before?  :highfive:



You do make a great point.

I think 50% is reasonable.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21847705 - 06/23/15 08:40 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Including state taxes and other taxes I pay about 50% of my income in taxes.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: starfire_xes]
    #21847756 - 06/23/15 08:52 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I meant Federal income taxes.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21847768 - 06/23/15 08:57 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

so the 'rich' might lose 75% of their income.  The top 1% aleady pay something like 35% of all income taxes, the top 50% pay 94%.  How is raising their taxes anymore fair?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: starfire_xes]
    #21847823 - 06/23/15 09:08 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
so the 'rich' might lose 75% of their income.  The top 1% aleady pay something like 35% of all income taxes, the top 50% pay 94%.  How is raising their taxes anymore fair?



Who cares what percentage they pay?  They earn a larger percent so they should pay a larger percent.  Do you think the bottom 50% should pay 50% of the taxes?  :picard:


--------------------
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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21848393 - 06/23/15 11:22 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

No I don't.  And I don't think anyone should pay more than they have to.  I think THE FUCKING GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO CUT THE GODDAMN SPENDING ON EVERYTHING.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: starfire_xes]
    #21848857 - 06/24/15 03:05 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
France scuttled its 75% millionaire tax in January, because unemployment surged as investment came to a crawl.

Well it seems that no one wants to invest in a country that taxes the shit out people who make money.  The tax was so bad even the Liberal Left turned against it.

DUH---BUT LETS MAKE THE RICH PAY MORE!!!  It doesn't work--just proved between 2012 and this Year in the People's Democratic Socialist Republic of France.


IN YOUR FACE LEFTIES~~!!!!!  :lolsy::highfive:

http://news.yahoo.com/france-drops-super-tax-millionaires-072915575--finance.html

A sample of one of the early protests against the tax:

http://techpresident.com/news/23052/frances-first-social-media-campaign-forces-government-roll-back-proposed-tax-increases





... And its all just as simple as that!

HAH! ... you people, I swear! >.<


--------------------
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InvisibleCitizen X
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21848918 - 06/24/15 03:59 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

999


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: starfire_xes]
    #21848954 - 06/24/15 04:45 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

You've heard it before because it's true. Taxes on the top were that high during the 50's and early 60's.


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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Le_Canard]
    #21849056 - 06/24/15 05:50 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

They were higher. I can't believe we still have so many Reaganomics drones running around these days! I guess the massive tax breaks for the wealthy, subsidization of their unique gambling habbits, and tax loopholes should keep the wealthy here in America. No business leaving the good old USA!

I thank other peoples gods every morning for the opportunity to contribute my labor, tax dollars, and future earnings to the wealthy benefactors who so benevolently grace this great land. I mean, that generous top 10% income earners only take 90% of the income (bailout subsidies not included), and look what we get in return!


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


Edited by Bigbadwooof (06/24/15 05:55 AM)


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21849249 - 06/24/15 07:33 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Do you think the bottom 50% should pay 50% of the taxes?




Nope, but they should have a net tax payment at year end. Perhaps 10%.

In no case should a healthy worker pay 0% or worse... receive more back than they paid in.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: starfire_xes]
    #21849252 - 06/24/15 07:34 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
No I don't.  And I don't think anyone should pay more than they have to.  I think THE FUCKING GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO CUT THE GODDAMN SPENDING ON EVERYTHING.




They certainly have a spending problem.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21849333 - 06/24/15 08:16 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

If the fed tax goes up to 50% then the rich are paying that plus state tax and all the other taxes. That isn't quite as confiscatory as the French tax, but still too high. I think the max rate now is 40%, that seems high enough.

lds
>they should have a net tax payment at year end. Perhaps 10%

Depends, if someone is struggling on min wage, falling behind and so on, they should not have to pay any tax. I'd rather see them working than sitting on their butt collecting welfare.

Corporate taxes need to come down, as it is, the top corporations dodge it easily by setting up in other countries. That's a lot of tax loot we don't get. Walmart, apple, google, among others do this.


--------------------
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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21850213 - 06/24/15 12:21 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Who in America is proposing DOUBLING the rate for the top income tax bracket?

Nobody.


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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21850459 - 06/24/15 01:19 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

So what is the magic number? 

Hint;  you nor anyone could possibly know.  You are meddling with things beyond your comprehension.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21850894 - 06/24/15 02:59 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
In no case should a healthy worker pay 0% or worse... receive more back than they paid in.



EXACTLY!  That's why the minimum wage needs to go up, so this doesn't happen.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Shins]
    #21850896 - 06/24/15 02:59 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
So what is the magic number? 

Hint;  you nor anyone could possibly know.  You are meddling with things beyond your comprehension.



How about a number that we already have proof works, like the tax rates before before Reagan?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21850980 - 06/24/15 03:15 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
In no case should a healthy worker pay 0% or worse... receive more back than they paid in.



EXACTLY!  That's why the minimum wage needs to go up, so this doesn't happen.




There should be no minimum wage.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21850998 - 06/24/15 03:19 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Shins said:
So what is the magic number? 

Hint;  you nor anyone could possibly know.  You are meddling with things beyond your comprehension.



How about a number that we already have proof works, like the tax rates before before Reagan?




How about... no.

Then: The rates were too high.

Now: Spending is far too high.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21851081 - 06/24/15 03:39 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
How about a number that we already have proof works, like the tax rates before before Reagan?



How about... no.

Then: The rates were too high.

Now: Spending is far too high.



Spending is the same as it ever was:




But debt is going through the roof since the Reagan tax cuts.



--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21851106 - 06/24/15 03:44 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Doesn't change my post in any way. Spending is too high.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21851421 - 06/24/15 04:51 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

your graph only goes to the 80's

its not as high as always. Its been on a steady increase over the years.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21851840 - 06/24/15 06:21 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
How about a number that we already have proof works, like the tax rates before before Reagan?



How about... no.

Then: The rates were too high.

Now: Spending is far too high.



Spending is the same as it ever was:




But debt is going through the roof since the Reagan tax cuts.






Debt is going up because it's cumulative. 

Tax revenue has averaged 17% (range of 14-20%) of GDP for the last 70 years and is at 17.5% today, so where is this huge growth of tax revenue going to take place? http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=205

Other countries tax revenue to GPD in 2013- France 21%, Germany 11%, Poland 16%.


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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: qman]
    #21851877 - 06/24/15 06:28 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

>Other countries tax revenue to GPD in 2013- France 21%, Germany 11%, Poland 16%.

And Germany has the strongest economy in Europe. Coincidence?


--------------------
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Offlineqman
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Stonehenge] * 1
    #21851916 - 06/24/15 06:37 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)



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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21852043 - 06/24/15 07:10 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
>Other countries tax revenue to GPD in 2013- France 21%, Germany 11%, Poland 16%.

And Germany has the strongest economy in Europe. Coincidence?




You're approaching this wrong. Tax rates are not the only factor involved here. This is something I see right wingers do quite often: equate correlation with causation, and it leads to all kinds of whacky conclusions. France has a much greater GDP than Poland also.

If you're using Germany as your model for the efficacy of right-wing principles you are incredibly misled. It is actually evidence to the contrary.

Also, our effective corporate tax rates are nowhere near 40%. Our tax code is such a fucking mess, and it is that way for a reason. Politicians use the tax code to return favors to their wealthy benefactors.

If you think the wealthy aren't doing well in America you are fucking bat shit crazy. (I am not referring to you specifically, stonehenge)


--------------------
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21852074 - 06/24/15 07:18 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Now I'm a right winger?

>Tax rates are not the only factor involved here

Why don't you explain it to us then since you present yourself as the authority on the matter.

>Also, our effective corporate tax rates are nowhere near 40%

Who said they were? Individual taxes go up to about 40%, maybe you are thinking about that?

>If you think the wealthy aren't doing well in America you are fucking bat shit crazy.

Who is it that said this? You and fal must be drinking the same hooch.


--------------------
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21852110 - 06/24/15 07:29 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
>Other countries tax revenue to GPD in 2013- France 21%, Germany 11%, Poland 16%.

And Germany has the strongest economy in Europe. Coincidence?




You're approaching this wrong. Tax rates are not the only factor involved here. This is something I see right wingers do quite often: equate correlation with causation, and it leads to all kinds of whacky conclusions. France has a much greater GDP than Poland also.

If you're using Germany as your model for the efficacy of right-wing principles you are incredibly misled. It is actually evidence to the contrary.

Also, our effective corporate tax rates are nowhere near 40%. Our tax code is such a fucking mess, and it is that way for a reason. Politicians use the tax code to return favors to their wealthy benefactors.

If you think the wealthy aren't doing well in America you are fucking bat shit crazy. (I am not referring to you specifically, stonehenge)




We're not discussing tax rates, we are talking about tax revenue as a percentage of GDP.


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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: psyconaught]
    #21852324 - 06/24/15 08:18 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
your graph only goes to the 80's


its not as high as always. Its been on a steady increase over the years.




Which proves my point even more.  You chart shows that spending as a % of GDP was going up until Ronald Reagan took over.

However, debt as a % of GDP was going down until Ronald Reagan.



Higher taxes clearly worked.


--------------------
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21852344 - 06/24/15 08:21 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Hey I found money lying on the sidewalk on occasion. That proves walking on the sidewalk can make you wealthy.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: qman]
    #21852419 - 06/24/15 08:34 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Debt is going up because it's cumulative.



Debt as a $ of GDP was going down until Reagan.

Quote:

qman said:
Tax revenue has averaged 17% (range of 14-20%) of GDP for the last 70 years and is at 17.5% today, so where is this huge growth of tax revenue going to take place?



Did you know that your 17% includes Social Security?  Which has tripled over that time.

Revenue as a % of GDP is way down if you don't factor social security in.


--------------------
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Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (06/24/15 08:41 PM)


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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Stonehenge] * 1
    #21852673 - 06/24/15 09:22 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Hey I found money lying on the sidewalk on occasion. That proves walking on the sidewalk can make you wealthy.



Does anyone here understand what Stonehenge is trying to tell us?


--------------------
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Stonehenge] * 1
    #21852698 - 06/24/15 09:26 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Now I'm a right winger?

>Tax rates are not the only factor involved here

Why don't you explain it to us then since you present yourself as the authority on the matter.

>Also, our effective corporate tax rates are nowhere near 40%

Who said they were? Individual taxes go up to about 40%, maybe you are thinking about that?

>If you think the wealthy aren't doing well in America you are fucking bat shit crazy.

Who is it that said this? You and fal must be drinking the same hooch.




I'm not going to explain it to you because I am not the authority, but I do know a thing or two. The free trade agreements, that have made the exportation of jobs profitable, have had a disasterous effect on the American economy. This is but one example. Technological advantances are another, like the .com boom. Its not such a simple subject as you eluded with your statement regarding tax rates. Economies boom and bust for many reasons, most of which have nothing at all to do with taxes. You know, prior to the recession Bush had already been cutting taxes. Our economy crashed soon after. I am not blaming the tax cuts, there were external factors.

As far as my last statement, that the wealthy are doing superbly well, I said that because it speaks to the heart of the discussion. The argument being presented here is one made in defense of the obscenely (I cannot emphasize this word enough) wealthy. That in order for these benevolent beings to bestow the American population with minimum wage jobs, and roll the dice on our economic stability, we must give them all that they demand, and never ask for them to pay into the society that they emerged from.

Now that their precious TPP has passed, they will soon be suing the government because we won't let them dump cyanide in the drinking water. God forbid they pay the taxes required to maintain our society.

You want to cut something? Cut the fucking military. Cut it 90%, and they can have their tax breaks.

Tax breaks don't increase employment in the private sector. That has never been true. However, tax increases increase employment by government.


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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21854434 - 06/25/15 10:10 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

The debt is going through the roof since Obama became President and the Dems rammed through massive spending increases when they had control and we can't get rid of them with Asshole in office.  As you can see from psychonaut's graph, government spending as a percent of GDP was flat from 1980 until 2008 even with 3 wars.


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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #21854550 - 06/25/15 10:41 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The debt is going through the roof since Obama became President and the Dems rammed through massive spending increases when they had control and we can't get rid of them with Asshole in office.  As you can see from psychonaut's graph, government spending as a percent of GDP was flat from 1980 until 2008 even with 3 wars.



No, what we see it debt going up in red, and debt going down in blue:



--------------------
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21854832 - 06/25/15 11:54 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Red is Republican?


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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21855104 - 06/25/15 01:02 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The debt is going through the roof since Obama became President and the Dems rammed through massive spending increases when they had control and we can't get rid of them with Asshole in office.  As you can see from psychonaut's graph, government spending as a percent of GDP was flat from 1980 until 2008 even with 3 wars.



No, what we see it debt going up in red, and debt going down in blue:






As a % of GDP, not cumulatively. The debt has always continued to claim higher, only Clinton had a surplus for I think one or two years.


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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: qman] * 1
    #21855145 - 06/25/15 01:14 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah, only Clinton, a Democrat. From Zappa's explanation you would think that it would be a Republican claiming that title.

George Bush ran up incredible debt that he didn't fucking pay for, and now Zappa wants to blame Obama for it. Let's just imagine, for a moment, how much lower Obama's spending would have been if we hadn't started frivolous wars like the Iraq war, and all of those which followed as a consequence, and moreover, hadn't had the greatest recession since the great depression.

I suppose the recession doesn't count for anything and Obama is just an asshole with a hole in his pocket. You people are unbelievable.


--------------------
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21855358 - 06/25/15 01:59 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

>Let's just imagine, for a moment, how much lower Obama's spending would have been if we hadn't started frivolous wars like the Iraq war, and all of those which followed as a consequence,

I can't let crazy talk like this pass uncontested. Iraq was settled by shrub (bush jr) with an agreement to pull out. Your hero obumble tore it up and put troops back. He also started a lot of other conflicts we don't need to be in. He tried to start a major war with Syria, threatened to go it alone and finally wimped out when even his own party turned against him.

>and moreover, hadn't had the greatest recession since the great depression.

He has increased the nat debt by over $8T and spent every dime of taxes we took in during that time period as well. You could have spent the money on random things picked out of a hat and the economy would be much better. He didn't start the recession but he kept it going with his incompetence and desire to throw money at the middle east.

>I suppose the recession doesn't count for anything and Obama is just an asshole with a hole in his pocket.

Yes, he is an asshole who spends money like it was someone else's. Which it is. The recession made it worse but he has done little or nothing right. I suppose the aca will be your example of him doing things right? That was super screwed up and will soon be shit canned by scotus.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21855564 - 06/25/15 02:50 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

You can pretend that Bush got us out of the war in Iraq, but that's not the case at all. The war in Afghanistan was the only war we were justified in entering. Obama talked about war in Syria, and didn't go there, so I don't see how that's relevant.

I don't see why the ACA would ever be 'shit-canned' by SCOTUS, you'll have to elaborate. I really hope you're not trying to imply that it is unconstitutional, but if you are, I would like to hear what grounds you make this claim on.

Quote:

You could have spent the money on random things picked out of a hat and the economy would be much better.




I can't argue with that, but that goes back to the corporatism we're seeing in government. That goes back to campaign finance. I don't see how anyone could possibly argue otherwise. He gave our money to his friends, and they paid his way into the oval office. It wasn't about saving the economy.

As far as the ACA, I think that is certainly one thing that he almost did right. He should have stuck to his guns for a single payer system, as Bernie Sanders has advocated.

As I said, I am not an apologist for the Democratic party, or Obama. I am a Liberal. We may have real options this election. I think we should not take that lightly, as we haven't had options in a long time (Except maybe Ron Paul, who would have done some great things, but also fucked a lot of things up). McCaine and Romney would not have been any different than Obama.


--------------------
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21855589 - 06/25/15 02:56 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Yeah, only Clinton, a Democrat. From Zappa's explanation you would think that it would be a Republican claiming that title.

George Bush ran up incredible debt that he didn't fucking pay for, and now Zappa wants to blame Obama for it. Let's just imagine, for a moment, how much lower Obama's spending would have been if we hadn't started frivolous wars like the Iraq war, and all of those which followed as a consequence, and moreover, hadn't had the greatest recession since the great depression.

I suppose the recession doesn't count for anything and Obama is just an asshole with a hole in his pocket. You people are unbelievable.




That's why making correlations between R and D's and deficits/economic data is fucking retarded, Presidents can't control what they inherited by the other party.


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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: qman]
    #21855610 - 06/25/15 03:03 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

>You can pretend that Bush got us out of the war in Iraq, but that's not the case at all.

I said he negotiated the pullout from Iraq and he did. I also said obumble tore up the deal and put troops back in. Do you deny any of that?

>Obama talked about war in Syria, and didn't go there, so I don't see how that's relevant.

He demanded war, said he would send in troops no matter if congress approved it or not. That would set off a constitutional crisis and after his own party turned against him he finally gave up. That is a hell of a lot more than just talking about it.

>I don't see why the ACA would ever be 'shit-canned' by SCOTUS, you'll have to elaborate. I really hope you're not trying to imply that it is unconstitutional, but if you are, I would like to hear what grounds you make this claim on.

You really should keep up with the news. They are scheduled to decide the fate of the aca soon. The reasons are kind of technical but it comes down to "its a piece of crap" in laymans terms.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21855863 - 06/25/15 04:12 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I don't have cable or dish, and I don't actively seek out information on things like the ACA, soI may be a bit uninformed on this subject, but I'll check it out. I doubt it will be done away with though. If it is, it will put millions of people out of healthcare, and will quickly be replaced.

Bush didn't pull out of Iraq. Obama didn't go into Syria. Their actions matter more than their words. Either way, I'm not here to defend Obama. I don't agree with the majority of things he has done. I find myself being backed into a corner of defending Obama, and that's not something I intend to do. McCaine and Romney would have done the exact same shit Obama did.


--------------------
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21856202 - 06/25/15 05:33 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Lol obama absolutely went into syria.  He sent recruiters, spies, intelligence, trainers, weapons, supplies, mercinaries all to assis al-queda in its war against assad.  Yes obama armed, supplied, trained and recruited, and sent mercinaries to aid al-Qaeda and the american idiot people let it slide.  He also turned lybia and now yemen into a shit hole of chaos amd extremism ameerica is the joke of the world.


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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21856287 - 06/25/15 05:50 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

>Bush didn't pull out of Iraq.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.%E2%80%93Iraq_Status_of_Forces_Agreement

"It established that U.S. combat forces would withdraw from Iraqi cities by June 30, 2009, and all U.S. combat forces will be completely out of Iraq by December 31, 2011"

That was the agreement obumble trashed and sent in troops instead.. What was it you said about actions? That was obumble's action

>Obama didn't go into Syria.
>Their actions matter more than their words

You have already gotten bitch slapped on that.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Shins]
    #21856327 - 06/25/15 05:56 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Lol obama absolutely went into syria.  He sent recruiters, spies, intelligence, trainers, weapons, supplies, mercinaries all to assis al-queda in its war against assad.  Yes obama armed, supplied, trained and recruited, and sent mercinaries to aid al-Qaeda and the american idiot people let it slide.  He also turned lybia and now yemen into a shit hole of chaos amd extremism ameerica is the joke of the world.




Libya.


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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Stonehenge] * 1
    #21856331 - 06/25/15 05:57 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Oh, I'm sorry, excuse me, we didn't start a war in Syria. I thought that was clear.
Also, Bush did not pull out of Iraq. He left that for Obama.


--------------------
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Edited by Bigbadwooof (06/25/15 05:58 PM)


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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21856378 - 06/25/15 06:06 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

>Oh, I'm sorry, excuse me, we didn't start a war in Syria.

No one said we did, that is called flogging the straw man

>Also, Bush did not pull out of Iraq. He left that for Obama.

No one said he "pulled out" another straw man. He made the deal to pull out and obumble did the opposite.

I'm afraid I will not be able to reply to you any more on the forums.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Citizen X]
    #21856686 - 06/25/15 07:12 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Citizen X said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
what we see it debt going up in red, and debt going down in blue:





Red is Republican?



Red is republican Presidents.


--------------------
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: qman] * 1
    #21856707 - 06/25/15 07:17 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
making correlations between R and D's and deficits/economic data is fucking retarded, Presidents can't control what they inherited by the other party.



They can't control what they inherit, but they can change the course.  As the last chart above shows, Democratic presidents reduce deficits and Republican presidents increase them.

If you're surprised by that result, it's VERY easy to explain.  Democratic presidents raise more revenue, Republicans raise less revenue.  Both spend like drunken sailors, so unless that changes, Democrats are doing the right thing.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21856732 - 06/25/15 07:24 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Well, if you want to be a child, then same to you.


--------------------
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Stonehenge] * 1
    #21856741 - 06/25/15 07:27 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
I don't see why the ACA would ever be 'shit-canned' by SCOTUS, you'll have to elaborate. I really hope you're not trying to imply that it is unconstitutional, but if you are, I would like to hear what grounds you make this claim on.



You really should keep up with the news. They are scheduled to decide the fate of the aca soon. The reasons are kind of technical but it comes down to "its a piece of crap" in laymans terms.



If you're correct about that, then "it's not a piece of crap" in laymans terms:  Supreme Court saves Obamacare


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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