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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21850980 - 06/24/15 03:15 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
In no case should a healthy worker pay 0% or worse... receive more back than they paid in.



EXACTLY!  That's why the minimum wage needs to go up, so this doesn't happen.




There should be no minimum wage.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21850998 - 06/24/15 03:19 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Shins said:
So what is the magic number? 

Hint;  you nor anyone could possibly know.  You are meddling with things beyond your comprehension.



How about a number that we already have proof works, like the tax rates before before Reagan?




How about... no.

Then: The rates were too high.

Now: Spending is far too high.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21851081 - 06/24/15 03:39 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
How about a number that we already have proof works, like the tax rates before before Reagan?



How about... no.

Then: The rates were too high.

Now: Spending is far too high.



Spending is the same as it ever was:




But debt is going through the roof since the Reagan tax cuts.



--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21851106 - 06/24/15 03:44 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Doesn't change my post in any way. Spending is too high.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21851421 - 06/24/15 04:51 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

your graph only goes to the 80's

its not as high as always. Its been on a steady increase over the years.


--------------------
Think for yourself, question authority


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Offlineqman
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21851840 - 06/24/15 06:21 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
How about a number that we already have proof works, like the tax rates before before Reagan?



How about... no.

Then: The rates were too high.

Now: Spending is far too high.



Spending is the same as it ever was:




But debt is going through the roof since the Reagan tax cuts.






Debt is going up because it's cumulative. 

Tax revenue has averaged 17% (range of 14-20%) of GDP for the last 70 years and is at 17.5% today, so where is this huge growth of tax revenue going to take place? http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=205

Other countries tax revenue to GPD in 2013- France 21%, Germany 11%, Poland 16%.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: qman]
    #21851877 - 06/24/15 06:28 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

>Other countries tax revenue to GPD in 2013- France 21%, Germany 11%, Poland 16%.

And Germany has the strongest economy in Europe. Coincidence?


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Offlineqman
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Stonehenge] * 1
    #21851916 - 06/24/15 06:37 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)



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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21852043 - 06/24/15 07:10 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
>Other countries tax revenue to GPD in 2013- France 21%, Germany 11%, Poland 16%.

And Germany has the strongest economy in Europe. Coincidence?




You're approaching this wrong. Tax rates are not the only factor involved here. This is something I see right wingers do quite often: equate correlation with causation, and it leads to all kinds of whacky conclusions. France has a much greater GDP than Poland also.

If you're using Germany as your model for the efficacy of right-wing principles you are incredibly misled. It is actually evidence to the contrary.

Also, our effective corporate tax rates are nowhere near 40%. Our tax code is such a fucking mess, and it is that way for a reason. Politicians use the tax code to return favors to their wealthy benefactors.

If you think the wealthy aren't doing well in America you are fucking bat shit crazy. (I am not referring to you specifically, stonehenge)


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21852074 - 06/24/15 07:18 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Now I'm a right winger?

>Tax rates are not the only factor involved here

Why don't you explain it to us then since you present yourself as the authority on the matter.

>Also, our effective corporate tax rates are nowhere near 40%

Who said they were? Individual taxes go up to about 40%, maybe you are thinking about that?

>If you think the wealthy aren't doing well in America you are fucking bat shit crazy.

Who is it that said this? You and fal must be drinking the same hooch.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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Offlineqman
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21852110 - 06/24/15 07:29 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
>Other countries tax revenue to GPD in 2013- France 21%, Germany 11%, Poland 16%.

And Germany has the strongest economy in Europe. Coincidence?




You're approaching this wrong. Tax rates are not the only factor involved here. This is something I see right wingers do quite often: equate correlation with causation, and it leads to all kinds of whacky conclusions. France has a much greater GDP than Poland also.

If you're using Germany as your model for the efficacy of right-wing principles you are incredibly misled. It is actually evidence to the contrary.

Also, our effective corporate tax rates are nowhere near 40%. Our tax code is such a fucking mess, and it is that way for a reason. Politicians use the tax code to return favors to their wealthy benefactors.

If you think the wealthy aren't doing well in America you are fucking bat shit crazy. (I am not referring to you specifically, stonehenge)




We're not discussing tax rates, we are talking about tax revenue as a percentage of GDP.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: psyconaught]
    #21852324 - 06/24/15 08:18 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
your graph only goes to the 80's


its not as high as always. Its been on a steady increase over the years.




Which proves my point even more.  You chart shows that spending as a % of GDP was going up until Ronald Reagan took over.

However, debt as a % of GDP was going down until Ronald Reagan.



Higher taxes clearly worked.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21852344 - 06/24/15 08:21 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Hey I found money lying on the sidewalk on occasion. That proves walking on the sidewalk can make you wealthy.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: qman]
    #21852419 - 06/24/15 08:34 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Debt is going up because it's cumulative.



Debt as a $ of GDP was going down until Reagan.

Quote:

qman said:
Tax revenue has averaged 17% (range of 14-20%) of GDP for the last 70 years and is at 17.5% today, so where is this huge growth of tax revenue going to take place?



Did you know that your 17% includes Social Security?  Which has tripled over that time.

Revenue as a % of GDP is way down if you don't factor social security in.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (06/24/15 08:41 PM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Stonehenge] * 1
    #21852673 - 06/24/15 09:22 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Hey I found money lying on the sidewalk on occasion. That proves walking on the sidewalk can make you wealthy.



Does anyone here understand what Stonehenge is trying to tell us?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Stonehenge] * 1
    #21852698 - 06/24/15 09:26 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Now I'm a right winger?

>Tax rates are not the only factor involved here

Why don't you explain it to us then since you present yourself as the authority on the matter.

>Also, our effective corporate tax rates are nowhere near 40%

Who said they were? Individual taxes go up to about 40%, maybe you are thinking about that?

>If you think the wealthy aren't doing well in America you are fucking bat shit crazy.

Who is it that said this? You and fal must be drinking the same hooch.




I'm not going to explain it to you because I am not the authority, but I do know a thing or two. The free trade agreements, that have made the exportation of jobs profitable, have had a disasterous effect on the American economy. This is but one example. Technological advantances are another, like the .com boom. Its not such a simple subject as you eluded with your statement regarding tax rates. Economies boom and bust for many reasons, most of which have nothing at all to do with taxes. You know, prior to the recession Bush had already been cutting taxes. Our economy crashed soon after. I am not blaming the tax cuts, there were external factors.

As far as my last statement, that the wealthy are doing superbly well, I said that because it speaks to the heart of the discussion. The argument being presented here is one made in defense of the obscenely (I cannot emphasize this word enough) wealthy. That in order for these benevolent beings to bestow the American population with minimum wage jobs, and roll the dice on our economic stability, we must give them all that they demand, and never ask for them to pay into the society that they emerged from.

Now that their precious TPP has passed, they will soon be suing the government because we won't let them dump cyanide in the drinking water. God forbid they pay the taxes required to maintain our society.

You want to cut something? Cut the fucking military. Cut it 90%, and they can have their tax breaks.

Tax breaks don't increase employment in the private sector. That has never been true. However, tax increases increase employment by government.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21854434 - 06/25/15 10:10 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

The debt is going through the roof since Obama became President and the Dems rammed through massive spending increases when they had control and we can't get rid of them with Asshole in office.  As you can see from psychonaut's graph, government spending as a percent of GDP was flat from 1980 until 2008 even with 3 wars.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #21854550 - 06/25/15 10:41 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The debt is going through the roof since Obama became President and the Dems rammed through massive spending increases when they had control and we can't get rid of them with Asshole in office.  As you can see from psychonaut's graph, government spending as a percent of GDP was flat from 1980 until 2008 even with 3 wars.



No, what we see it debt going up in red, and debt going down in blue:



--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleCitizen X
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21854832 - 06/25/15 11:54 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Red is Republican?


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Rate me here


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Offlineqman
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Re: Raising Taxes on the Rich--I TOLD YOU SO! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21855104 - 06/25/15 01:02 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The debt is going through the roof since Obama became President and the Dems rammed through massive spending increases when they had control and we can't get rid of them with Asshole in office.  As you can see from psychonaut's graph, government spending as a percent of GDP was flat from 1980 until 2008 even with 3 wars.



No, what we see it debt going up in red, and debt going down in blue:






As a % of GDP, not cumulatively. The debt has always continued to claim higher, only Clinton had a surplus for I think one or two years.


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