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Offlineglimpee
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"Awakening" and "Sleeping" - Do we have them mixed up?
    #21836887 - 06/21/15 12:54 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Currently it seems that people think dying/sleeping is akin to awakening

but that doesn't make logical sense to me at all.

1. Sleeping is sleeping - not waking up
2. When you sleep - you are not more whole, you consciousness splits up. You are not your full self. I am not 100% sure where the other parts of the consciousness go - but since there are other beings in dreams it might be assumable that some of ones consciousness goes to power those beings rather than just yourself

This would suggest that dreaming splits up the consciousness


Which would mean dreaming separates us further from the universal consciousness




So to re-merge with the universal consciousness, we would have to "wake up," but how?

Here are my assumptions
1. Meditation - this is not a form of sleep - but of awakening. Once mastered one can achieve all sorts of spiritual hoo-ha, and meditation tends to lead people into the universal consciousness
2. Death while prepared - I believe that if one is READY to achieve spiritual enlightenment when they die - they might take a different path.

They might not make a new dream hen they die - but actually revert one dream back







My theory is kinda like inception. The more we fall asleep - the further into dreams we go. Further away from true reality.



Can anyone argue otherwise? Or is this all just speculated and "agreed" upon?


--------------------
Just because I am arrogant does not mean I forget my place. It is how I choose to talk. I am not a monk. I am my own path, and I am without influence. Talk to me about my core being before you question my mental stability or life-choices. Chances are, they're only shocking to you because they don't fit your idea of what is.




Check out my Art Journal for some stuff I do http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21647069


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Offlineglimpee
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Re: "Awakening" and "Sleeping" - Do we have them mixed up? [Re: glimpee]
    #21839180 - 06/21/15 08:49 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Anyone?


--------------------
Just because I am arrogant does not mean I forget my place. It is how I choose to talk. I am not a monk. I am my own path, and I am without influence. Talk to me about my core being before you question my mental stability or life-choices. Chances are, they're only shocking to you because they don't fit your idea of what is.




Check out my Art Journal for some stuff I do http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21647069


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InvisiblePocketLady
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Re: "Awakening" and "Sleeping" - Do we have them mixed up? [Re: glimpee] * 1
    #21841420 - 06/22/15 11:47 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Yes I agree that meditation is a form of awakening. When we sleep it's certainly harder to stay aware than when we are awake. That is why we aren't all having lucid dreams all of the time. However, if you meditate lots and start to build up vital energy through specific practices, you start to become more aware in the dream world, as well as in the waking world.

My understanding is that when we die, we go through a process where our soul fully separates from our body which involves bliss, ecstacy and also hallucinations. Only people who have reached a certain level of consciousness during their lives will be able to remain aware during this state. If you can remain aware and not get overwhelmed by everything that is happening, then you can escape the reincarnation cycle. However, if you haven't reached that level of awareness then the experience overwhelms you, you get sucked into unconscious thinking and remain in the incarnation cycle.

I think what happens during our dreams could be one way to gauge our level of awareness in general. At the level of unconsciousness would be no awareness of the dream state, not remembering dreams and/or not being at all conscious or lucid whilst dreaming. At the level of consciousness would be complete awareness of the dream, great dream recall and control of the content of the dream. The more I do specific meditation practices to increase vitality and awareness, the more lucid I am naturally during the dream state, although there are specific practices (eg dream yoga) that a person can do to increase this further. Getting control of the dream state is said to be good preparation for what will happen when we die.


--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


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Onlinedeff
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Re: "Awakening" and "Sleeping" - Do we have them mixed up? [Re: PocketLady] * 1
    #21841530 - 06/22/15 12:31 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I used to subscribe to that view of death, the bardo and reincarnation you mention PocketLady that comes mainly from the Tibetan Book of the Dead and similar teachings. However, what that view imo fails to take into account is the level of higher guidance and direction and overall benevolence of life that is present (from the Higher Self for instance). Now I see life as a benevolent process of training and evolving the soul into higher levels of love and mastery, and that this process is guided and overlighted by higher superintelligent aspects of a being (higher mental body and higher self, and also spiritual masters and guides). The view from Tibetan Buddhism lacks this element of life and instead sees existence as almost a mistake, something to escape from, something that is designed wrong (or not designed at all actually) - which in my new view is lacking a greater understanding of things.

If you look at modern accounts of near death experiences, they portray a reality where we are not just unconscious participants being pushed by the winds of karma into another incarnation without planning or higher guidance and design. Instead, commonalities of these experiences often show that the soul meets with higher 'light beings', learns about the mysteries of life, and goes through a thorough Life Review process wherein they examine every experience they had and every choice they made in life, and how that affected others, and how well they learned their chosen life lessons or not. Modern OBE adventures into the afterlife region of non-physical reality seem to largely confirm these near death experiences. There's many accounts of people witnessing deceased individuals going through life review, through emotional processing, and also consciously planning their next incarnation with the assistance of higher beings. This paints the image of life, and the reincarnational cycle, as something of higher meaning and purpose, and not an accident to escape from like is painted by Buddhist teachings often. That said, these same more modern accounts of non-physical experiences do often still emphasize the importance of learning the lessons we are here to learn and graduating from the need to incarnate. But this is not done simply by recognizing the afterlife imagery as a product as one's own mind as is the teaching from the Tibetan Book of the Dead, but instead through mastering all of the lessons and skills they set out to learn throughout their many lifetimes on earth.

The Tibetan Book of the Dead is well regarded often because it is ancient and widely studied, but really the information presented can only have come to humanity through a living being having such non-physical adventures into the afterdeath process. The same experiences are had in modern times and by large paint a different view of what happens, and also a view less steeped in certain dogmas and cultural imagery (though still often seen through the lens of the person's culture and spiritual beliefs to some extent). A great book I just read about this was The Unanswered Question: Death, Near-Death, and the Afterlife by Kurt Leland. In it, he looks at what the afterlife process might be based on modern accounts of near death experiences, based on his own out of body experiences where he learns from "Facilitators" in spirit (his word equivalent to Angels) and from witnessing recently deceased people go through the process, and also he references ancient beliefs such as those found in the Tibetan Book of the Dead, the Egyptian Book of the Dead, and others.

To me, it makes sense that life would not be an accident to escape from but rather a highly tuned, intelligently designed school of learning :smile: In a similar regard, I view non-lucid dreams as an extension of this school, wherein higher aspects of one's being puts the consciousness through certain processing (dreams) that help to resolve energetic and emotional issues from this and previous lives. So even if we aren't becoming lucid in our dreams, they still serve a very important function as a form of simulation. Lucid dreams are fun of course and offer a different kind of conscious learning, but I personally see there being value to both and not just to lucid dreams. Often times, getting the conscious human self to relinquish the desire to be in control (that is often present in lucid dreams) is a good way for the higher self to design these simulations for certain reasons. I don't personally think that it would be as beneficial if we were lucid in every dream we had necessarily. Perhaps at a certain stage of spiritual development one no longer needs the same degree of emotional processing through dreams and could benefit more from lucid encounters and experiences and bringing them back to their conscious waking state.

This is just how I view these things now, although I used to view them the same way you mention. I could of course be off the mark, but that's what my own experiences and life has hinted at lately :smile:


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Offlineglimpee
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Re: "Awakening" and "Sleeping" - Do we have them mixed up? [Re: deff]
    #21841847 - 06/22/15 02:28 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Hmm, this is making me think Lucid dreaming is a WHOLE different game than regular dreaming. Control of consciousness rather than separation...


My idea of life in one of inception. At the highest level, the universal consciousness, or maybe something higher than that. As it goes down levels, it "dreams" splitting up the current consciousness into different parts. Lets assume this reality in the next step down. I believe the universal consciousness is split up between us - whether that was accidental or just part of "dreaming" is to be seen, however.

If I apply the same idea to our dreams, our consciousness gets split up - and this makes sense to me. I am not 100% myself in a non-lucid dream, other aspects of my consciousness take different roles in my dream. I am not only myself, I am the entire reality.

You guys raised some really interesting points, and I gotta look into dream yoga (I meditate as I'm falling asleep - slowly getting closer to lucidity) but what do you guys think


Is regular dreaming and death one thing, while lucid dreaming and awakening another?

People think that death is release - but reincarnation might just mean you go into your own dream universe. Death might take your further away from the universal.

Unless, as you guys said, you are aware enough to break the cycle. I think that's an important distinction that I completely missed





To me - this theory just makes more sense. Although I don't like only riding on my intuition :smile:


thanks for the input! really good posts


--------------------
Just because I am arrogant does not mean I forget my place. It is how I choose to talk. I am not a monk. I am my own path, and I am without influence. Talk to me about my core being before you question my mental stability or life-choices. Chances are, they're only shocking to you because they don't fit your idea of what is.




Check out my Art Journal for some stuff I do http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21647069


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InvisiblePocketLady
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Re: "Awakening" and "Sleeping" - Do we have them mixed up? [Re: deff]
    #21841977 - 06/22/15 03:01 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Oh I totally agree with much of what you have said Deff :smile: I don't think the bardo means that we don't receive guidance from higher beings.  I've never really thought of it as an either or thing. I think the bardo process and OBE/NDEs fit nicely alongside each other.

My understanding is that there are different stages in the bardo process which depend on the person's level of consciousness and ability to reach spiritual states going into it. The first part of the process happens to quickly and subtly that it could even seem non-existent if you had no spiritual training during life.  And it's not so much about escaping, it's just that if you haven't reached a certain level of awareness then there are still things you need to reincarnate to learn :smile:

I found this page quite interesting, and it would explain the near-death experiences that many report having as part of the different stages of the bardo process.

http://www.spiritualtravel.org/OBE/afterdeath.html

And I hear what you are saying about being lucid in dreams. It might not be necessary to be in that state (or at least in control) all of the time, I agree.


--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


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Onlinedeff
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Re: "Awakening" and "Sleeping" - Do we have them mixed up? [Re: glimpee]
    #21841981 - 06/22/15 03:01 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

well the one downside of lucid dreaming is that the lower human self can try to control the dream as opposed to surrendering to a higher vision of what wants to unfold for our highest good :smile: i think it's important to remember that we exist on many levels, including levels much higher than our normal consciousness (whether in waking life or in a lucid dream) - and that this higher consciousness guides and overlights us :smile:

what Matt Kahn says frequently I think is applicable, he says "If we always got everything we wanted, we would end up with far less than what the universe conspires to give us" :smile: it's very often the case that what we want and even what we think is best for us is far removed from what actually is in our highest interest. that's why surrender is considered so important in spiritual paths, as we surrender our small vision of life to the much greater and wiser larger vision that our higher selves encompass... like the saying "Not my will, but Thy Will be done" :smile:

So in that vein, I see much benefits from regular non-lucid dreaming wherein we allow the simulations and processing from higher aspects of us to unfold for us without us realizing at the time that it's just a simulation. That said, lucid dreams can accomplish this too, and also allow for conscious questioning and investigation of the dream and ourselves and the universe which is quite neat. But having lucid dreams just to fulfill our desires and fantasies is quite missing the point imo :smile:


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Onlinedeff
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Re: "Awakening" and "Sleeping" - Do we have them mixed up? [Re: PocketLady]
    #21842007 - 06/22/15 03:09 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

yeah modern NDE's can be compatible with older views like the Tibetan bardo model, but I do think the Tibetan version still needs to be reinterpreted to a certain degree and I think that taken alone it's lacking quite a bit. I also don't think the only lesson in life is to retain awareness, and so I disagree that retaining awareness in the bardo after dying is enough to get out of having to reincarnate. And many OBE's, NDE's, channeled information, etc reports the idea of planning our next incarnation in great detail with the assistance of higher beings. So entering the next life in this view is not how it is presented in the Tibetan model where we are terrified of hallucinations and seek refuge in another birth :smile: But of course, we will find out ourselves what the case is :laugh: and personally I don't think we have anything to worry about, although of course we still want to learn our lessons and evolve as gracefully and cooperatively as we can :smile:

The book I mentioned by Kurt Leland does a very thorough analysis of his views of the afterlife from his OBE's and accounts of NDE's to the Tibetan Book of the Dead model, and it's quite illuminating imo :smile:


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InvisiblePocketLady
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Re: "Awakening" and "Sleeping" - Do we have them mixed up? [Re: deff] * 1
    #21842029 - 06/22/15 03:15 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Haha, yeah I guess we won't know for sure until the time comes. Trying to describe the process with words is probably pretty difficult anyway!

I will definitely try and check that book out :smile:


--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


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Offlineglimpee
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Re: "Awakening" and "Sleeping" - Do we have them mixed up? [Re: PocketLady]
    #21842329 - 06/22/15 04:56 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Do you two think dreaming (not lucidly) separates the consciousness or re-merges us? Or is it something different?

same question for death - although I think we've kinda agreed on this

Same for meditation


How can we tell the difference between "waking up" and "sleeping"
"merging" and "splitting"


--------------------
Just because I am arrogant does not mean I forget my place. It is how I choose to talk. I am not a monk. I am my own path, and I am without influence. Talk to me about my core being before you question my mental stability or life-choices. Chances are, they're only shocking to you because they don't fit your idea of what is.




Check out my Art Journal for some stuff I do http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21647069


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Invisibleonce in a lifetime
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Re: "Awakening" and "Sleeping" - Do we have them mixed up? [Re: glimpee]
    #21842376 - 06/22/15 05:11 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I think you have it rather correct -

awaken from the dream, and so forth, is the best;

one way to ponder whether death is waking up or not, is to ponder dissolution, or formlessness.

Formlessness could happen at any time :wink:

I also agree - one may go further into dreams and reality - in Hindu expression this would be called going further into ignorance -

Yet it is not a simple black and white - dreams are not ignorance, they're merely something we do when we sleep -

as others have pointed out, they have great value, and there is good reason for them --


In other words, we may learn many things during dreams - primarily I have found, mine are connected to every day reality and events - so dreams are primarily a clue to how everything is going, overall. .

any experience in a dream I can usually trace directly to an event in waking consciousness - also, it is more about feeling than anything else.


Also, and the first thing I almost posted, was, best I could say at this point is that there are endless awakenings, an unlimited levels of dream, awareness and light.

or - boundless levels of light, life, existence, awareness, so forth.  Within - this is all in the heart; has no external necessity.

:sun:


--------------------
Innocent, Oldfield & Hegerland          Julia Delaney, Bothy Band                                        Rasta Girl, Sister Carol                    Genesis, Jorma K
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Offlineglimpee
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Re: "Awakening" and "Sleeping" - Do we have them mixed up? [Re: once in a lifetime]
    #21842396 - 06/22/15 05:17 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

once in a lifetime said:
I think you have it rather correct -

awaken from the dream, and so forth, is the best;

one way to ponder whether death is waking up or not, is to ponder dissolution, or formlessness.

Formlessness could happen at any time :wink:

I also agree - one may go further into dreams and reality - in Hindu expression this would be called going further into ignorance -

Yet it is not a simple black and white - dreams are not ignorance, they're merely something we do when we sleep -

as others have pointed out, they have great value, and there is good reason for them --


In other words, we may learn many things during dreams - primarily I have found, mine are connected to every day reality and events - so dreams are primarily a clue to how everything is going, overall. .

any experience in a dream I can usually trace directly to an event in waking consciousness - also, it is more about feeling than anything else.


Also, and the first thing I almost posted, was, best I could say at this point is that there are endless awakenings, an unlimited levels of dream, awareness and light.

or - boundless levels of light, life, existence, awareness, so forth.  Within - this is all in the heart; has no external necessity.

:sun:





What if dreams ARE ignorance though?

Lets assume that this reality is a dream, that every reality save the true one is a dream, within a dream, within a dream.

1st theres the idea of waking up. We wake up from dreams. We wake up from reality. There is a correlation.

Only understanding this reality as its taught to us is ignorance. For most people - dreams serve to explain this reality in the context of this reality. It explains our ignorance, but does it quell ignorance?

For those who are in the process of waking up - dreams may explain things in a context greater than this reality - but perhaps spiritual attuned people are just more capable or something



But as we go into a dream, we forget that the past reality has even existed. We are in the dream, and that is reality. We are ignorant to this reality.

In this reality, we are ignorant of what waking up truly brings, what reality before this one was. And as we dream more - we forget more realities, more steps back to waking up.


--------------------
Just because I am arrogant does not mean I forget my place. It is how I choose to talk. I am not a monk. I am my own path, and I am without influence. Talk to me about my core being before you question my mental stability or life-choices. Chances are, they're only shocking to you because they don't fit your idea of what is.




Check out my Art Journal for some stuff I do http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21647069


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Invisibleonce in a lifetime
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Re: "Awakening" and "Sleeping" - Do we have them mixed up? [Re: glimpee]
    #21842418 - 06/22/15 05:22 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

nah, that's what they say , but it's only a useful paradigm.

learn from all paradgims, but then set them aside. :sun:


--------------------
Innocent, Oldfield & Hegerland          Julia Delaney, Bothy Band                                        Rasta Girl, Sister Carol                    Genesis, Jorma K
I Wish You Peace, Lawrence Laughing                                                                                                                    Do Your Thing, Moondog                     
large  . . music garden . .  very
all peace                    them hi
Starhouse - main
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Offlineglimpee
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Re: "Awakening" and "Sleeping" - Do we have them mixed up? [Re: once in a lifetime]
    #21843014 - 06/22/15 07:39 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

once in a lifetime said:
nah, that's what they say , but it's only a useful paradigm.

learn from all paradgims, but then set them aside. :sun:




Really? Thats what they say? I haven't heard it - I actually thought my theories were contradictory to what most people thought

but I believe its possible that even the spiritual community is shrouded in ignorance and assumption


I came up with this theory just through logic - no experience. I have no explored enough to actually vouch for this theory - but I just think that its possible that people have waking up and descending further mixed up in some ways


--------------------
Just because I am arrogant does not mean I forget my place. It is how I choose to talk. I am not a monk. I am my own path, and I am without influence. Talk to me about my core being before you question my mental stability or life-choices. Chances are, they're only shocking to you because they don't fit your idea of what is.




Check out my Art Journal for some stuff I do http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21647069


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Re: "Awakening" and "Sleeping" - Do we have them mixed up? [Re: glimpee] * 1
    #21844256 - 06/23/15 12:19 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

i don't think the consciousness splits up or anything of the sort, i think the beings in your dreams are just the same as the people in your actual waking life. since everything experienced is an implying type of model or a representation, you take inputs and translate them into vision and sound and smell and other perceived things, and then the like center point or whatnot is set in the model made for the body and its space. you might be able to see what different perspectives are like in a dream but i think it's pretty much just expanding or moving the center point of sorts within yourself, the whole model of what you experience at any time.

i think you're in this way always your 'full self', there might be a self you adhere to while awake and such that'll be way different in dream land but neither is your real self, both are part of the full self, they're contained in it. unless it splits on a different level, like what contains and is before the whole translated sense model reality map we use to navigate, idk bout that, or further on from there.


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Re: "Awakening" and "Sleeping" - Do we have them mixed up? [Re: Pope]
    #21845223 - 06/23/15 09:16 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

i liked that a lot, Pope.


dear glimpee - yep, that's a common paradigm in Hinduism. . my understanding now, is that it's not that simple - not ever, really.

studying wisdom traditions from around the globe, can be one of the most wonderful ways of delving deeper into the heart, as every culture lives on the same sacred earth, within the same system of ecology, and there are sages who build upon previous learning and understanding, and in this way some remarkable depths of peace, wisdom, understanding, and never lose sight of, of course, love and happiness, as well as light-heartedness. :sun:


--------------------
Innocent, Oldfield & Hegerland          Julia Delaney, Bothy Band                                        Rasta Girl, Sister Carol                    Genesis, Jorma K
I Wish You Peace, Lawrence Laughing                                                                                                                    Do Your Thing, Moondog                     
large  . . music garden . .  very
all peace                    them hi
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Re: "Awakening" and "Sleeping" - Do we have them mixed up? [Re: once in a lifetime] * 1
    #21849881 - 06/24/15 10:52 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

there's a good reasons why they called the buddha the awaken: he slept one hour per day.


the self, the full self, people are obsessed with something that doesnt exist.


There is NO self in the universe. nobody owns anything, the self is a idea, a construction based upon past experience.


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Re: "Awakening" and "Sleeping" - Do we have them mixed up? [Re: youknowyou]
    #21857833 - 06/25/15 11:03 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

ya i have found self and no self are the same thing.

:sun: :smile:

in other words, atman, and buddha-nature, are identical.

it is quite useful to explore emptiness/compassion,

as in Nagarjuna, but not to get too caught up in views that no-self is always right, etc. . .

they are each an adequate description of Reality. 

whichever aspect one prefers - form, or formless -


that is just fine. :sun:


--------------------
Innocent, Oldfield & Hegerland          Julia Delaney, Bothy Band                                        Rasta Girl, Sister Carol                    Genesis, Jorma K
I Wish You Peace, Lawrence Laughing                                                                                                                    Do Your Thing, Moondog                     
large  . . music garden . .  very
all peace                    them hi
Starhouse - main
Time Traveler's Guide


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