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OfflineD.M.T
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Re: What do you think of the Confederate flag? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21850317 - 06/24/15 12:47 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
So you still can substantiate it? Tsk tsk.



I've given you a link that maintains from numerous cited sources blacks were limited in their education in America's past. Do you have a link that disputes this? Without one I don't see why you're arguing history unless you just simply don't like it. You've been twisting words and conveniently skipping over shit this whole time - that I would argue is a liberal tactic, unlike anything I've said.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I wouldn't tell them they have to but I wouldn't accomodate them in a way if they don't.  Fuck 'em if they don't want to.  I don't give a shit as long as I don't have to pay for it.



I'm actually in favor of abandoning the extra expense altogether in states that have English as an official language. It isn't that I want to see or pay more, but I'd like a precedent on the books.

There's a few things you have to keep in mind about the English language. Without completely immersing yourself in it, the language is about impossible to learn, especially if you come from a language that doesn't follow the Romance or Germanic train of thought.

When I moved to Spain to teach English I learned their language very quickly out of necessity. At that time only really young kids knew much English. The older the generation the less they knew. Most English teachers who teach abroad are chosen by how little of the native second language they speak.

One of the questions that got me hired onto an academy in Thailand was, "Can you speak Lanna?"

By that point I'd worked in the industry for a while so I knew the correct answer: No sir, absolutely not! Not a single word! Never even heard of it.

I only got by in Thailand because they actually want to learn English unlike the Spanish.

That's just part of the hiring process. So either the person learning English has to go out of their comfort zone and move somewhere that speaks it, or the English teacher goes out of their comfort zone and moves somewhere they can't speak the language.

Why do they want people that can't speak the native language? Because it forces the kids learning English to speak it, similar to how someone moving to America would be forced to speak it.

So someone could actively be trying to learn the language and just hasn't. That puts me on the fence on whether I think translating notices, court hearings, whatever, is a reasonable or unreasonable accommodation.

One thing I can say is I definitely think court-ordered translators are overpaid. I'd really like to see a solution that puts government and taxpayers out of it, if that's possible.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: What do you think of the Confederate flag? [Re: D.M.T]
    #21850346 - 06/24/15 12:54 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

The Romance languages are all generally on the easy side to learn.  German and English?  Fucking monsters but you are right.  You have to immerse yourself and make an effort and they don't even try and demand that we accommodate them at taxpayer expense.  Fuck that shit.  They didn't do it for the Italians and Poles and now they are Italian Americans and Polish Americans and German Americans.  You ever see that kind of label applied to Spanish speaking people?  No, they are just Hispanics and American is nowhere to be found.


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Offliner00tuuu123
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Re: What do you think of the Confederate flag? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21850427 - 06/24/15 01:12 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Even though english is not the official language of the US  it is comonly accepted to be. It should be spoken in commerce an anyone who can't ask for what they want in english should be denied service of any kind. :thatsayes: Like they say when in Rome.


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OfflineD.M.T
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Re: What do you think of the Confederate flag? [Re: r00tuuu123]
    #21850490 - 06/24/15 01:25 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

We're living in a country where Red Bull can be forced into a $13 million settlement because they have a farfetched slogan. Imagine the discrimination lawsuits and uproar from koods if a guy wasn't able to get the only Kosraean (no, not Korean) interpreter in the US for his trial they ultimately dismissed. Just make English the official language already. Then you have at least some kind of leverage against government discrimination lawsuits.

In the private sector you should be able to speak and set standards for any language you want. Kim can operate his Korean supermarket in his native language all he wants - I just won't shop there.


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OfflineHerbologist
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Re: What do you think of the Confederate flag? [Re: D.M.T] * 1
    #21850585 - 06/24/15 01:49 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

D.M.T said:
We're living in a country where Red Bull can be forced into a $13 million settlement because they have a farfetched slogan. Imagine the discrimination lawsuits and uproar from koods if a guy wasn't able to get the only Kosraean (no, not Korean) interpreter in the US for his trial they ultimately dismissed. Just make English the official language already. Then you have at least some kind of leverage against government discrimination lawsuits.

In the private sector you should be able to speak and set standards for any language you want. Kim can operate his Korean supermarket in his native language all he wants - I just won't shop there.





Someone like Koods would cry about it and claim oppression and racism


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: What do you think of the Confederate flag? [Re: D.M.T]
    #21850610 - 06/24/15 01:58 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

All your pathetic wiki link said was that writing was not "encouraged" which does not back up your statement at all. Fail


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: What do you think of the Confederate flag? [Re: Patlal] * 1
    #21850629 - 06/24/15 02:05 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)



--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineD.M.T
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Re: What do you think of the Confederate flag? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21850659 - 06/24/15 02:12 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
All your pathetic wiki link said was that writing was not "encouraged" which does not back up your statement at all. Fail




Writing was how you communicated with people outside your community back then. Why do you think they would discourage that?

Actually, it says not only was teaching them to write discouraged, it was illegal in many places such as Carolina, Georgia and a number of other states.

Then it goes on to say:

"The most oppressive limits on slave education were a reaction to Nat Turner's Revolt in Southampton County, Virginia during the summer of 1831. This event not only caused shock waves across the slave holding South, but it had a particularly far-reaching impact on education over the next three decades. The fears of slave insurrections and the spread of abolitionist materials and ideology led to radical restrictions on gatherings, travel, and—of course—literacy. The ignorance of the slaves was considered necessary to the security of the slaveholders (Albanese, 1976). Not only did owners fear the spread of specifically abolitionist materials, they did not want slaves to question their authority; thus, reading and reflection were to be prevented at any cost."


". In 1833, Alabama enacted a law that fined anyone who undertook a slave's education between $250 and $550; the law also prohibited any assembly of African-Americans—slave or free—unless five slave owners were present or an African-American preacher had previously been licensed by an approved denomination.

Even North Carolina, which had previously allowed free African-American children to attend schools alongside whites, eventually responded to fears of insurrection. By 1836, the public education of all African-Americans was strictly prohibited."

..

I could go on but then I'd be copying and pasting pretty much the whole article. Typical liberals not reading what they're given before they dispute it.


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: What do you think of the Confederate flag? [Re: Herbologist]
    #21850699 - 06/24/15 02:20 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Herbologist said:
Quote:

BlindSophist said:
It's a symbol of unrepentant anti-black racism and white supremacy... anybody who denies this is fronting for those movements, whether they realize it or not.





Many blacks fought under the confederate flag.




Uh no, they didn't. They were in the confederate army as porters, cooks and ditch diggers.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: What do you think of the Confederate flag? [Re: D.M.T]
    #21850719 - 06/24/15 02:25 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

You said before that they were not "allowed" to write and that is false. None of that article says that.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: What do you think of the Confederate flag? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21850807 - 06/24/15 02:43 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:

You said before that they were not "allowed" to write and that is false. None of that article says that.




stoney, stoney, stoney,  can't you see that the distinction between being "allowed to write" and being "allowed to learn to write" is an insignificant one?  your semantic argument leaves you with even less credibility than you had already...if that is even possible....


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OfflineD.M.T
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Re: What do you think of the Confederate flag? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21850810 - 06/24/15 02:43 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
You said before that they were not "allowed" to write and that is false. None of that article says that.



So if they can't be taught by anyone, including other slaves, how to read and write under North Carolina law (just using themfor example), how are they supposed to read and write? They were not allowed to read and write in North Carolina law because they were not allowed to learn it. Pretty simple dude. You're just nitpicking like a liberal who knows he's wrong would do. Why do you think none of the resident conservatives are batting for you?

And furthermore, what makes you think slave masters themselves would allow it if the government is so paranoid? 

Quote:

AN ACT TO PREVENT ALL PERSONS FROM TEACHING SLAVES TO READ OR WRITE, THE USE OF FIGURES EXCEPTED
Whereas the teaching of slaves to read and write, has a tendency to excite dis-satisfaction in their minds, and to produce insurrection and rebellion, to the manifest injury of the citizens of this State:
Therefore,
Be it enacted by the General Assembly of the State of North Carolina, and it is hereby enacted by the authority of the same, That any free person, who shall hereafter teach, or attempt to teach, any slave within the State to read or write, the use of figures excepted, or shall give or sell to such slave or slaves any books or pamphlets, shall be liable to indictment in any court of record in this State having jurisdiction thereof, and upon conviction, shall, at the discretion of the court, if a white man or woman, be fined not less than one hundred dollars, nor more than two hundred dollars, or imprisoned; and if a free person of color, shall be fined, imprisoned, or whipped, at the discretion of the court, not exceeding thirty nine lashes, nor less than twenty lashes.
II. Be it further enacted, That if any slave shall hereafter teach, or attempt to teach, any other slave to read or write, the use of figures excepted, he or she may be carried before any justice of the peace, and on conviction thereof, shall be sentenced to receive thirty nine lashes on his or her bare back.
III. Be it further enacted, That the judges of the Superior Courts and the justices of the County Courts shall give this act in charge to the grand juries of their respective counties.




North Carolina law for reference.

And regardless of any of this shit, the whole point was people didn't do their research back then.

People do more research now than ever. Why do you think they call this the age of information? D'oh.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: What do you think of the Confederate flag? [Re: D.M.T]
    #21850832 - 06/24/15 02:48 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

You still have not shown they were not "allowed" to write, just a couple random things showing they were not encouraged. Not the same thing.

> people didn't do their research back then.

You don't know that either.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: What do you think of the Confederate flag? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21850913 - 06/24/15 03:02 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
You still have not shown they were not "allowed" to write, just a couple random things showing they were not encouraged. Not the same thing.

> people didn't do their research back then.

You don't know that either.





he has shown that at least in north carolina, it was made illegal to teach blacks to read or write.  that goes far beyond simply "not encouraging" them to read or write.  your willful ignorance is mind-boggling.  i find myself wondering if you type this shit with a straight face.  since this all started with your ridiculous assertion that people in the "old days" did their own research, i'll go ahead and repost my response to that unsubstantiated claim.


Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:

None of that nonsense makes it racist. People are such sheep, they watch tv to learn what opinions they should have. In the old days people did their own research and did not simply repeat what someone else said.





that is an interesting point you make there my nazi-fied compatriot.
i have to say, that i am interested in this research that people supposedly did, that allowed them to make any analysis without repeating what someone else said.  That seems impossible to me unless these people from the old days were:
a. first hand eyewitnesses
        or
b. had access to primary sources
                           
since most people, everywhere in history, ever, did not fall into one or both of those categories, i'm going to have to make the call.
:callingbullshit:




now is your opportunity to either retract your foolish statement, or provide some proof to back it up.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: What do you think of the Confederate flag? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21850929 - 06/24/15 03:05 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Why can't they teach themselves and each other?  Why do you think only whitey and/or the government can teach?


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OfflineD.M.T
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Re: What do you think of the Confederate flag? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21850935 - 06/24/15 03:06 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
You still have not shown they were not "allowed" to write, just a couple random things showing they were not encouraged. Not the same thing.



No one was allowed to legally teach them. Given that simple fact, do you honestly think the plantation owners would allow it? My history book in high school mentioned several slaves who came from plantations where their masters didn't.

They were not allowed the ability to learn to write, and in some cases not allowed to even read. That's what I said initially and that's all there is to it. There were laws set up to prevent them from being able to read and write. This limited their education and limited their ability to do research. If you have a source that disputes that, feel free to dispute it. Without one you mimic a closet white guilt liberal upset about his family history, and without a source of your own that justifies your denial I will engage you no further.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: What do you think of the Confederate flag? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21850958 - 06/24/15 03:11 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Why can't they teach themselves and each other?  Why do you think only whitey and/or the government can teach?




if you bothered to read the statute that DMT posted, you would realize that they couldn't teach themselves or each other because the punishment was MUCH harsher than the punishment administered to "whitey"

that was one of your weakest posts ever. i expect so much more from you zappa


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: What do you think of the Confederate flag? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21850967 - 06/24/15 03:13 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Why can't they teach themselves and each other?  Why do you think only whitey and/or the government can teach?




if you bothered to read the statute that DMT posted, you would realize that they couldn't teach themselves or each other because the punishment was MUCH harsher than the punishment administered to "whitey"

that was one of your weakest posts ever. i expect so much more from you zappa




And when was this?  Do you really think they didn't do it?


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OfflineD.M.T
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Re: What do you think of the Confederate flag? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21850987 - 06/24/15 03:16 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Why can't they teach themselves and each other?  Why do you think only whitey and/or the government can teach?



Probably the same reason you can't decipher Russian by just looking at it. You need someone who knows already how to decipher the pronunciation of letters to teach you. Just staring at a bunch of symbols does jack shit unless you have someone already to pass it down. Slaves came from countries that for the most part did not even have written alphabets as far as I'm aware. They would need someone who knows how to read to teach them. This just so happened to be the white man.

Now that isn't quite so necessary with the advent of Rosetta Stone and such. The research we can do solo now is so much more advanced.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: What do you think of the Confederate flag? [Re: D.M.T]
    #21850999 - 06/24/15 03:19 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

D.M.T said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Why can't they teach themselves and each other?  Why do you think only whitey and/or the government can teach?



Probably the same reason you can't look decipher Russian by just looking at it. You need someone who knows already how to decipher the pronunciation of letters to teach you. Just staring at a bunch of symbols does jack shit unless you have someone already to pass it down. Slaves came from countries that for the most part did not even have written alphabets as far as I'm aware. They would need someone who knows how to read to teach them. This just so happened to be the white man.

Now that isn't quite so necessary with the advent of Rosetta Stone and such.




Well if I was Russian slave I'm sure I would know the spoken language and someone in my community would know the fucking alphabet.

This is ancient history and of absolutely no relevance to the current state of Negro educational achievement.


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