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TheGreenArrow
Goodbye, Mr. Chops.


Registered: 06/22/12
Posts: 15,270
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
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Re: What do you think of the Confederate flag? [Re: Stonehenge]
#21846155 - 06/23/15 01:50 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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In a word. Yes.
-------------------- A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, conn a ship, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve an equation, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.- Robert A. Heinlein Saint RedBow of the Shroomey Loomey-Patron Saint of Sandbaggin Sumbitchs
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Shins
Fun guy



Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
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Quote:
BlindSophist said:
Quote:
Shins said: Lincoln’s words: “I view the matter (Emancipation Proclamation) as a practical war measure, to be decided upon according to the advantages or disadvantages it may offer to the suppression of the rebellion.”
Because who needs context when there's a half-baked ahistorical "point" to score?
Denia is not just a river in egypt.
Abe was pro-slavery and a conplete racist, but he was smart enough to realize that the issue of slavery have him political capital to use to expand the federal union.l
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1234go
Ban Lotto Champion


Registered: 07/08/09
Posts: 53,864
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Re: What do you think of the Confederate flag? [Re: Patlal]
#21846166 - 06/23/15 01:52 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Regardless of the confederacies motivation and what the flag truly represents, it's looked at as a sign of seperation, un equality, and slavery nowadays. I feel like if we ever wanna move forward/evolve as a species, rise above and flourish..symbols like this simply shouldn't be around. They only hold us back, and keep us in the past.
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Mchaggis
cawbstawmper




Registered: 05/28/09
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Re: What do you think of the Confederate flag? [Re: TheGreenArrow]
#21846172 - 06/23/15 01:53 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Also the current design known as the "rebel flag" is called so because in the fifties a rectangular saltire style flag modeled after The Army of Northern Virginia's battle flag was popularized by the Ole Miss football program (after a limited use in WWII denoting Southern regiments), and usually flown as a "battle flag" at football games. Hence the "rebel" flag, as in the University of Mississippi's mascot. They flew it a lot when Alabama came to Oxford to play. The battle flown currently flown over Columbia, SC, is Robert E. Lee's own battle flag, presumably one of the ones he said to "fold up" and "put away." The other flags he was talking about were probably this one, which had seven, nine, eleven and thirteen stars at different points:

Which was confused too often with the Union flag, so the next one he was talking about was this one, probably:

But that one got confused with the flag of surrender, so it was changed to this one, the third and final National Flag of the Confederate States of America:

He could also have been referring to this flag:

The flag popularized in WWII and the fifties and even more so in the sixties is most similar to the battle flag of the Army of Tennessee, or the Confederate Naval jack
--------------------
 I am on a drug. It's called Charlie Sheen. It's not available because if you try it once, you will die. Your face will melt off and your children will weep over your exploded body
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Sophistic Radiance
Free sVs!


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Re: What do you think of the Confederate flag? [Re: TheGreenArrow]
#21846175 - 06/23/15 01:54 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
TheGreenArrow said:
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BlindSophist said:
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TheGreenArrow said: Why should that hold any bearing? You can't look at somebody from Ireland and tell they're white? On the same note people back then in positions of power did what they'll always do and pinch EVERY penny they can in order to make a dollar. Race be damned.
Am I saying I'm for slavery? No! But then again neither was the General of the Confederate Army.
@koods-That's a little reductionist, don't you think?
They're not just white because of their skin color. They are also white because of their social standing, economic status and historical relationship with the system of white supremacy. You think the Ayatollah of Iran could go down to Dixieland and be seen as white? He is white, though, pink cheeks and all. Racial delineations are about more than skin color.
Check out How the Irish Became White.
I should have expected a response like this outta you. Whiteness seems like a skin color to me. Though I recognize I'm arguing with a trans woman about how the outside of a person reflects the way they're treated outwardly. I'd figure you'd know all about that subject. (I sincerely mean no offense by that statement. Just playing devils advocate.)
My gender shouldn't have anything to do with this conversation. I don't see how that is even playing "devil's advocate" considering it's not connected to any argument you're making. It looks like you're just bringing it up for no reason. 
It was easier for the Irish to assimilate and "become white" because of their skin color, but they were initially regarded as nonwhite because of their historical association with non-Christian religion and the lack of economic development of Ireland itself until it was colonized by the Brits. Part of that assimilation process for the Irish community involved burning bridges with the Black community and strengthening ties with institutions which uphold white supremacy. You should check out that book I mentioned, it's pretty interesting.
Again, the Ayatollah of Iran is pink as a pig but would not be seen as white by the vast majority of people in the US, and an even larger majority of white supremacists, because he is a Muslim who natively speaks a Semitic language.
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: What do you think of the Confederate flag? [Re: 1234go]
#21846185 - 06/23/15 01:58 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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>Regardless of the confederacies motivation and what the flag truly represents, it's looked at as a sign of seperation, un equality, and slavery nowadays. I feel like if we ever wanna move forward/evolve as a species, rise above and flourish..symbols like this simply shouldn't be around. They only hold us back, and keep us in the past.
So if the media keeps telling you something over and over it must be true? That is the technique of the big lie, hitler, stalin and other dictators used it and it has been copied by our rulers. You probably also believe that drugs are bad, govt is good and wise and spends our money better than we do our selves so we should turn more of it over to them.
And irish were not white but became white later? Lol, when I think nothing stupider could be said than what was already said, they top themselves again.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: What do you think of the Confederate flag? [Re: koods]
#21846186 - 06/23/15 01:58 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
koods said:
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zappaisgod said: http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2015/06/22/the_confederate_flag_is_the_legacy_of_democrats_not_republicans
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The Confederate Flag Is the Legacy of Democrats, Not Republicans!
The racists in the South were Democrats, the Republicans led the civil war and the civil rights act against Democrat opposition. These are facts.
Get over it. Jesus. The democrats and republicans switched roles in the 20th century. Mainly because the modern Democratic Party was abandoned by the racist wing of the party in the south. Southern white democrats are now known as republicans.
Bullshit. As usual. Do you know what party Robert KKK Byrd belonged to? Democrat. Affirmative Action. a democrat policy is racist and assumes that Negroes like me are stupid and can't make it on our own
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Shins
Fun guy



Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
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Re: What do you think of the Confederate flag? [Re: 1234go]
#21846187 - 06/23/15 01:58 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Executive Mansion, Washington, August 22, 1862.
Hon. Horace Greeley: Dear Sir.
I have just read yours of the 19th. addressed to myself through the New-York Tribune. If there be in it any statements, or assumptions of fact, which I may know to be erroneous, I do not, now and here, controvert them. If there be in it any inferences which I may believe to be falsely drawn, I do not now and here, argue against them. If there be perceptable in it an impatient and dictatorial tone, I waive it in deference to an old friend, whose heart I have always supposed to be right.
As to the policy I "seem to be pursuing" as you say, I have not meant to leave any one in doubt.
I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause. I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views.
I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men every where could be free.
Yours, A. Lincoln.
koods tells me to read a book lol yet gets all hisninfo from TYT.
How are you going to deny this now? I have several quotes of lincolin admitting that the primary intent of the federalists was to preserve and expand the union, and that slavery was of no concern eiher way.
they knew slavery was unpopular among citizens so they smartly used it to rally troops on their side, but underneath it all the federal union was their only real concern.
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Sophistic Radiance
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Re: What do you think of the Confederate flag? [Re: Stonehenge]
#21846191 - 06/23/15 02:00 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'd refer you to that book but I feel like it might give you a stroke to read something that doesn't confirm your pre-existing biases
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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Shins
Fun guy



Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
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Re: What do you think of the Confederate flag? [Re: 1234go]
#21846194 - 06/23/15 02:00 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
1234go said: Regardless of the confederacies motivation and what the flag truly represents, it's looked at as a sign of seperation, un equality, and slavery nowadays. I feel like if we ever wanna move forward/evolve as a species, rise above and flourish..symbols like this simply shouldn't be around. They only hold us back, and keep us in the past.
The confederate flag is being slandered as a symbol of racism because in realiy it is a symbol of dissent, limited government, and reistence. All things which the government and statists woukd like to supress.
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TheGreenArrow
Goodbye, Mr. Chops.


Registered: 06/22/12
Posts: 15,270
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
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You are saying outward appearances don't weigh heavily on how people treat you if you're saying the Irish weren't white. I was correlating how interesting this is coming from somebody who decided to change their outside to reflect how they feel on the inside.
Also, as stated earlier in the thread, I'll agree that classism had more to do with how the US was built rather than racism.
-------------------- A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, conn a ship, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve an equation, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.- Robert A. Heinlein Saint RedBow of the Shroomey Loomey-Patron Saint of Sandbaggin Sumbitchs
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Shins
Fun guy



Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
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Quote:
BlindSophist said: I'd refer you to that book but I feel like it might give you a stroke to read something that doesn't confirm your pre-existing biases
There is a quote there right above your fucking post, straight from abraham lincoln that says he only cares about the union and couldn't give a shit about slavery yet you still deny deny deny.
you do not have the integrity to admit you're wro g, nor the intgrity to properly investigate something befoe you take your rash position which was spoon fed to you be state sponsored school and media. Pathetic.
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1234go
Ban Lotto Champion


Registered: 07/08/09
Posts: 53,864
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Re: What do you think of the Confederate flag? [Re: Shins]
#21846208 - 06/23/15 02:09 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said: The confederate flag is being slandered as a symbol of racism because in realiy it is a symbol of dissent, limited government, and reistence. All things which the government and statists woukd like to supress.
I'm fully aware of propaganda, and that the confederacy was a lot more than just a bunch of racist hillbillies.
But as i mentioned in the beginning of my post. "Regardless of" We don't need the out dated confederate flag to pursue a limited government. Old with the old, in with the new. Something that doesn't have such a stigma attached to it.
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TheGreenArrow
Goodbye, Mr. Chops.


Registered: 06/22/12
Posts: 15,270
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
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Re: What do you think of the Confederate flag? [Re: Shins]
#21846213 - 06/23/15 02:11 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Jesus, let's not sink into personal attacks here. Just stop.
-------------------- A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, conn a ship, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve an equation, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.- Robert A. Heinlein Saint RedBow of the Shroomey Loomey-Patron Saint of Sandbaggin Sumbitchs
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Shins
Fun guy



Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
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Re: What do you think of the Confederate flag? [Re: 1234go]
#21846214 - 06/23/15 02:11 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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The racism stigma attached tk the ag is revision history.... I can't just let it slide like that.
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Sophistic Radiance
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Re: What do you think of the Confederate flag? [Re: TheGreenArrow]
#21846220 - 06/23/15 02:14 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
TheGreenArrow said: You are saying outward appearances don't weigh heavily on how people treat you if you're saying the Irish weren't white. I was correlating how interesting this is coming from somebody who decided to change their outside to reflect how they feel on the inside.
Hormones have changed my insides too, you know. This might be hard for you to understand, but I mainly started taking hormones because I correctly intuited that it would bring my moods and emotions into harmony with my personality. I'm not going to deny that the boobs are great too, and help others correctly perceive me as female, but that's not what this is really about.
Quote:
Also, as stated earlier in the thread, I'll agree that classism had more to do with how the US was built rather than racism. 
As I am trying to say, there are more components to racial classifications in the US than just skin color, including class, among other things. Any conversation about either issue, class or race, as they relate to the US, must take the other into account.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
Edited by Sophistic Radiance (06/23/15 02:24 PM)
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Thayendanegea
quiet walker



Registered: 02/20/12
Posts: 7,596
Loc: 7 Lodges Nation
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Re: What do you think of the Confederate flag? [Re: koods] 4
#21846221 - 06/23/15 02:14 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Of course the soldiers didn't own slaves. What does that have to do with anything? How hard is it ever to get a bunch of ignorant rednecks to pick up a gun and fight?
Wow,My opinion of you just dropped with that statement. I can tell you would certainly not be someone I would want next to me when the shit hit the fan...Some people fight for what they see as honor...It may be based on spoon fed bullshit propaganda lies from their government officials...but, it is honor, nonetheless. History books don't describe that ...nor does wikipedia. That statement smacks more of bigotry than the other posts about slavery.
-------------------- Look Deep Into Nature,and Then You Will Understand Everything Better. Albert Einstein
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D.M.T
Shroomery Contaminant


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Re: What do you think of the Confederate flag? [Re: 1234go] 2
#21846222 - 06/23/15 02:15 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Personally I show my pride in states rights by voting.
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Sophistic Radiance
Free sVs!


Registered: 07/11/06
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Re: What do you think of the Confederate flag? [Re: D.M.T]
#21846227 - 06/23/15 02:15 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
D.M.T said: Personally I show my pride in states rights by voting.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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TheGreenArrow
Goodbye, Mr. Chops.


Registered: 06/22/12
Posts: 15,270
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
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Re: What do you think of the Confederate flag? [Re: Thayendanegea]
#21846232 - 06/23/15 02:18 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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It's an easy target though. It's like saying all drug users are junkies. Part of the wonder of living in this era.
-------------------- A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, conn a ship, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve an equation, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.- Robert A. Heinlein Saint RedBow of the Shroomey Loomey-Patron Saint of Sandbaggin Sumbitchs
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