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WAN
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: Stonehenge]
#21875406 - 06/29/15 08:11 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Stone check your PM.
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tripN
Novice psychonaut


Registered: 06/27/15
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: WAN]
#21875563 - 06/29/15 08:49 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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In this whole debate or ruling that the confederate flag is a sign of hate nobody has brought my Maine point to the discussion. Here goes.
If you remove that flag and what it means (slavery) from our society it will eventually be forgotten. Same deal for the swastika in Germany where it is banned, and neo nazi groups are becoming more popular.
I believe it was Churchill that said "Those that don't know history are destined to repeat it."
That is not an exact quote but you get the message.
-------------------- Keep calm and trip on
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imachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw



Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 31,375
Loc: You get banned for saying that
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Quote:
paperbackwriter said: Let's play a game. You be black and I'll be white.
At the start of the game I own all of your pieces and they work for me. This goes on for 200 turns. For the next 100 turns I don't let your pieces use any of the stuff they helped me build and I kill them if they piss me off. For the next 50 years you can play as normal.
How long until you catch up?
Since I know you won't answer I'll answer for you. You don't. You're too far behind. Without help you'll be behind forever.
This is the difference between discrimination and inclusion. The argument is a semantic one. But it's your argument. Most people can tell the difference.
The argument is semantic? But why does this apply to the argument? Discrimination and inclusion. The confederacy was never included as a piece of culture, the south was never recognized as a nation. But blacks were discriminated against.
None the less, was waving the confederate flag an act of southern pride or was it a battle cry to return to old times? I think the sad truth is, and this is irregardless of the topic, that southerners are way less racist against blacks now then people are against southerners. Basically: people are extremely racist against southerners. I am too. I'm guilty. I think they are all isolated culture less white trash and minorities
But for all the shit I've talked about them some of the best times I've ever had were in the south with some of the most polite people you'd ever meet. Main topic here:
What does the confederate flag represent these days? Racism? Has it been clarified?
Once again:
Does any flag flown have more right to it then another as a symbol of freedom over oppression or are we more accepting of the fact that's bullshit?
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I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
Edited by imachavel (06/29/15 09:27 PM)
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,871
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: Stonehenge]
#21876091 - 06/29/15 11:27 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: No, no slurs either. But you can say honkey, white trash and a few things like that. If I said chink it must have meant a crack in a wall. You are also not supposed to call people names but they are very laid back on the rule if a liberal breaks it.
poor stonebrains, big bad ballsalsa calls him names. if a liberal breaks it...c'mon man. I'm no liberal. i am a political extremophile. take the political spectrum, bend it into a circle, and where the 2 ends touch...thats where i fall. BTW, WAN, i see you guys are white supremacy buddies, and thats cool i guess, but you see that i was right about Stoney making unfounded claims, and then not having the data to back it up. The instead of admitting it, he tried to deflect(once again) by implying that the data would bear out his hypothesis, if only there were scientists ballsy enough to do the study. Well guess what guys, there are. here's what a simple wikipedia search has to say about intelligence among the races:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence
Quote:
Geneticist, Alan R. Templeton argues that the question about the possible genetic effects on the test score gap is muddled by the general focus on "race" rather than on populations defined by gene frequency or by geographical proximity, and by the general insistence on phrasing the question in terms of heritability.[105] Templeton points out that racial groups neither represent sub-species nor distinct evolutionary lineages, and that therefore there is no basis for making claims about the general intelligence of races.[105] From this point of view the search for possible genetic influences on the black-white test score gap is a priori flawed, because there is no genetic material shared by all Africans or by all Europeans. Mackintosh (2011) points out that by using genetic cluster analysis to correlate gene frequencies with continental populations it could possibly be the case that African populations had a higher frequency of certain genetic variants that contribute to an average lower intelligence. Such a hypothetical situation could hold without all Africans carrying the same genes or belonging to a single Evolutionary lineage. According to Mackintosh, a biological basis for the gap thus cannot be ruled out on a priori grounds.
Several candidate genes have been proposed to have a relationship with intelligence.[107][108] However, a review of candidate genes for intelligence published in Deary, Johnson & Houlihan (2009) failed to find evidence of an association between these genes and general intelligence, stating "there is still almost no replicated evidence concerning the individual genes, which have variants that contribute to intelligence differences".[109]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect
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Some studies have found the gains of the Flynn effect to be particularly concentrated at the lower end of the distribution. Teasdale and Owen (1989), for example, found the effect primarily reduced the number of low-end scores, resulting in an increased number of moderately high scores, with no increase in very high scores.[9] In another study, two large samples of Spanish children were assessed with a 30-year gap. Comparison of the IQ distributions indicated that the mean IQ-scores on the test had increased by 9.7 points (the Flynn effect), the gains were concentrated in the lower half of the distribution and negligible in the top half, and the gains gradually decreased as the IQ of the individuals increased.[10]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G_factor_(psychometrics)
Quote:
The form of the population distribution of g is unknown, because g cannot be measured on a ratio scale. (The distributions of scores on typical IQ tests are roughly normal, but this is achieved by construction, i.e., by normalizing the raw scores.) It has been argued that there are nevertheless good reasons for supposing that g is normally distributed in the general population, at least within a range of ±2 standard deviations from the mean. In particular, g can be thought of as a composite variable that reflects the additive effects of a large number of independent genetic and environmental influences, and such a variable should, according to the central limit theorem, follow a normal distribution.[50]
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
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Quote:
paperbackwriter said:
Quote:
Stonehenge said: pbw, you are the same guy who told us giving special breaks to people based on race is not racism. You have been discredited for all time.
Oh look more ad hominem.
You can click Shin's signature if you need help knowing what that means.

The irony is that Stonehenge never realizes how many logical fallacies he commits.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: ballsalsa]
#21876861 - 06/30/15 07:22 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said:
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Stonehenge said: pbw, you are the same guy who told us giving special breaks to people based on race is not racism. You have been discredited for all time.
ITT, stonebrains tries to act as though he hasn't been thoroughly discredited uncounted times.
anyone who takes this guy seriously should seek professional help
I couldn't agree more. Stonehenge has been utterly destroyed by pbw in this thread.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: Stonehenge]
#21876885 - 06/30/15 07:35 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: You complain about semantics but that's all you have. Saying discrimination is justified does not make it any less discriminatory. Racism is still racism. If it was whites getting special breaks because many white people have not succeeded, you would immediately do a back flip and say it was racist.
You STILL don't get it. He's not 'complaining' about semantics, he's simply letting you know that the answer to your question differs depending on the definition you use. You chose a definition to fit your desired outcome - that's a semantics game. And yes, both sides can play.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Dr.Satan
Mad Professor



Registered: 06/26/15
Posts: 2,182
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Ban the flag, don't ban the flag, really doesn't make any difference. Racism doesn't start with the flag and it won't end with it either.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: Dr.Satan]
#21876916 - 06/30/15 07:49 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I agree.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: Dr.Satan] 1
#21876970 - 06/30/15 08:16 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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It's not being banned. Rather or not racism starts or ends with it it is symbolic of it. Flying it on state property is a clear message that black people are still not viewed as equal.
If I lived in a state that flew it on public property I would absolutely vote to have it removed.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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qman
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Quote:
paperbackwriter said: Let's play a game. You be black and I'll be white.
At the start of the game I own all of your pieces and they work for me. This goes on for 200 turns. For the next 100 turns I don't let your pieces use any of the stuff they helped me build and I kill them if they piss me off. For the next 50 years you can play as normal.
How long until you catch up?
Since I know you won't answer I'll answer for you. You don't. You're too far behind. Without help you'll be behind forever.
This is the difference between discrimination and inclusion. The argument is a semantic one. But it's your argument. Most people can tell the difference.
"Without help you'll be behind forever"
What a bunch of nonsense, do you think that every minority group that came to the US has been at a major disadvantage without "help"?
How have the Poles, Irish, Italians, Japanese, Jews, ect. been doing the last 100 years? Not so bad and without any liberal "help"!!
The fact of the matter is we could be here 100 years from now and people like you will still be making excuses for every dysfunctional culture and blaming others for its failure, if you're waiting for total equality of cultures that's NEVER going to happen with or without "help".
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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So the dizzy moonbats fly around the question of racism and find nothing wrong with giving special breaks based on race as long as the "right" race gets the breaks. While its impossible to get a straight answer out of any of them, they seem to think that what happened to someone's ancestors is the important factor. You can't expect anyone to get ahead today if their great great grandfather had a hard time.
You just pretend to be against racism but in actuality, you are very racist.
Very good points, qman.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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qman
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Quote:
paperbackwriter said: It's not being banned. Rather or not racism starts or ends with it it is symbolic of it. Flying it on state property is a clear message that black people are still not viewed as equal.
If I lived in a state that flew it on public property I would absolutely vote to have it removed.
"is a clear message that black people are still not viewed as equal"
More bullshit, there's nothing clear about what flying that flag represents, people like you are constantly looking to victimization, what a pathetic way of looking at the world.
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
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Quote:
paperbackwriter said: And I already posted an alternate definition when you first asked the question.
Oh look, there's that same definition on the page you linked.
Quote:
racism /ˈreɪsɪzəm/ noun 1. the belief that races have distinctive cultural characteristics determined by hereditary factors and that this endows some races with an intrinsic superiority over others 2. abusive or aggressive behaviour towards members of another race on the basis of such a belief
And another.. damn, same page.
Quote:
racism in Culture racism definition
The belief that some races are inherently superior (physically, intellectually, or culturally) to others and therefore have a right to dominate them. In the United States, racism, particularly by whites against blacks, has created profound racial tension and conflict in virtually all aspects of American society. Until the breakthroughs achieved by the civil rights movement in the 1950s and 1960s, white domination over blacks was institutionalized and supported in all branches and levels of government, by denying blacks their civil rights and opportunities to participate in political, economic, and social communities.
So we're back to semantics. I think I mentioned that a long fucking time ago. Also is this thread about affirmative action? I thought it was about the fucking flag. When did it become about affirmative action? Oh right, when you straw manned my argument against your stupid thought police hyperbole.
Anyway, I will address AA since your strawman is the only thing you care to talk about. Guess I'll educate myself a bit.
Here's a counter to what seems to be the main point. And it looks like the author agrees that it's all semantics.
Myth 7. "You can't cure racism with racism.. err. discrimination. whatever."
Quote:
The problem with this myth is that it uses the same word -- discrimination -- to describe two very different things. Job discrimination is grounded in prejudice and exclusion, whereas affirmative action is an effort to overcome prejudicial treatment through inclusion. The most effective way to cure society of exclusionary practices is to make special efforts at inclusion, which is exactly what affirmative action does. The logic of affirmative action is no different than the logic of treating a nutritional deficiency with vitamin supplements. For a healthy person, high doses of vitamin supplements may be unnecessary or even harmful, but for a person whose system is out of balance, supplements are an efficient way to restore the body's balance.
http://www.understandingprejudice.org/readroom/articles/affirm.htm
"affirmative action is no different than the logic of treating nutritional deficiency"
Wow, is this the bullshit rhetoric they force down your throat at college? You should be embarrassed to post such dribble, try again.
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: qman]
#21877034 - 06/30/15 08:43 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
How have the Poles, Irish, Italians, Japanese, Jews, ect. been doing the last 100 years? Not so bad and without any liberal "help"!!
None of those groups were as discriminated against for as long as the blacks were. I don't think anyone can argue that the blacks in this country weren't dealt a shit hand up until a couple decades ago. Upward mobility is low in this country, and if your family is impoverished and enslaved for hundreds of years, I imagine it would be hard to break the cycle.
Once again, this discussion of privledge is viewed as so black and white. Nearly every group has a privledge of some sort. And just because the blacks have been disadvantaged for so long does not mean they don't have every opportunity to succeed now, even if it is on average harder.
Blacks were enslaved and denied civil rights for hundreds of years. I don't know why it's such an offensive idea to so many people that that might impact their life today.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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Dr.Satan
Mad Professor



Registered: 06/26/15
Posts: 2,182
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: Stonehenge]
#21877066 - 06/30/15 08:53 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I've noticed the more equal the races that were once minorities become the more they expect a superior treatment. Racism was such a severe problem that now that it's not a dominate ideal amongst white people we are still viewed as if it is. So now whitey can't even have a flag without it making him a racist? The place in question where they want to ban this flag no doubt has other races other then whites working there? The confederate flag is the same as the rebel flag which I've seen even black people wear plastered on their t-shirts out in the country. So those black people are obviously hardened confederate racists as well
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Edited by Dr.Satan (06/30/15 08:58 AM)
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qman
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21877096 - 06/30/15 09:00 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
BoldAsLove said:
Quote:
How have the Poles, Irish, Italians, Japanese, Jews, ect. been doing the last 100 years? Not so bad and without any liberal "help"!!
None of those groups were as discriminated against for as long as the blacks were. I don't think anyone can argue that the blacks in this country weren't dealt a shit hand up until a couple decades ago. Upward mobility is low in this country, and if your family is impoverished and enslaved for hundreds of years, I imagine it would be hard to break the cycle.
Once again, this discussion of privledge is viewed as so black and white. Nearly every group has a privledge of some sort. And just because the blacks have been disadvantaged for so long does not mean they don't have every opportunity to succeed now, even if it is on average harder.
Blacks were enslaved and denied civil rights for hundreds of years. I don't know why it's such an offensive idea to so many people that that might impact their life today.
Many of the groups that came over "were enslaved and denied civil rights for hundreds of years" before they arrived in the US, this has happened to so many groups of people since the beginning of time, yet they overcome.
The black culture now has the mentality of being a full time victim, they have already been defeated. The only thing that cures them at this point is pure charity, because everything else isn't obtainable in their mindset. So it's give us free stuff because we can't do it on our own, that's a pretty sad attitude in 2015.
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: qman]
#21877156 - 06/30/15 09:13 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Those groups weren't enslaved after they arrived in the U.S. Black people in this country were treated like shit until very very recently. MLK was assasinated less than 50 years ago. It's understandable to think that, on average, they will be worse off because of it. Do you disagree?
As for the mentality of the black community, I won't make any gross generalizations like that. As I stated in my previous post, although it may be harder and they may have fewer resources, black people have every opportunity to succeed in this country. If they don't, that's their own fault. But I'm not going to sit here and pretend that they (on average) are at the same starting point as white people. They have certain advantages, certainly, but they also have many disadvantages and it is wrong to be blind to one side of the equation.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: qman]
#21877198 - 06/30/15 09:31 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said: How have the Poles, Irish, Italians, Japanese, Jews, ect. been doing the last 100 years? Not so bad and without any liberal "help"!!
I think you just made a compelling argument that racism is still alive and well. 
Quote:
qman said: there's nothing clear about what flying that flag represents, people like you are constantly looking to victimization, what a pathetic way of looking at the world.
Do blacks fly the confederate flag as much as whites? Perhaps there is more meaning than some are willing to admit.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21877207 - 06/30/15 09:34 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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>The black culture now has the mentality of being a full time victim, they have already been defeated. The only thing that cures them at this point is pure charity, because everything else isn't obtainable in their mindset. So it's give us free stuff because we can't do it on our own, that's a pretty sad attitude in 2015.
This is what their "friends" the moonbats and left wing loonies are pushing on them. They are telling negroes and other groups that they are inferior, can't compete and must have a crutch the rest of their lives and their children as well.
Ironically, the ones who try to empower blacks, encourage them to make it on their own are called racists while the real racists, the liberals, push their corrosive racial policies that make sure most minorities never get ahead. Why not give each black person a wheel chair since they can't compete with anyone?
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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