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psyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: qman]
#21861461 - 06/26/15 08:07 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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I can't see anything the south has to be proud of . Is it the war they lost , the lynch mobs ? The kkk?
Are you sure these are the only things to come out of the South?
-------------------- Think for yourself, question authority
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: psyconaught]
#21861484 - 06/26/15 08:14 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Only an extreme liberal will tell you that discriminating based on race is not racism. But we hear it all the time, they try to justify it and when asked if it is racism or not, they deny it. But what else can it be?
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: Shins]
#21861499 - 06/26/15 08:18 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Shins said: The flag is not racist and everyone should not need to change in order to satisfy your illiterate, irrational sensibilities.
I call bullshit. inanimate objects are twice as racist as liberals
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 1 hour, 37 minutes
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: Stonehenge]
#21861513 - 06/26/15 08:22 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Stonehenge said: Only an extreme liberal will tell you that discriminating based on race is not racism. But we hear it all the time, they try to justify it and when asked if it is racism or not, they deny it. But what else can it be?
He's also insinuating that certain races of people can't compete because they are inferior in nature or as he says it, not "equal".
Therefore they need special preferential treatment to make up any difference, can one degrade another race anymore with that line of reasoning? Disgusting.
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: qman]
#21861656 - 06/26/15 09:10 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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I used numerous analogies to illustrate my views. They're nothing like the two strawmen in the post above.
I asked a question Stonehenge. Do you beleive in white privilege? I'll accept answers via yes, no, or essay.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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>I used numerous analogies to illustrate my views. They're nothing like the two strawmen in the post above.
You mean you tried to change the subject. You did not answer the question at all. The post above yours is by qman, ask him yourself.
>I asked a question Stonehenge. Do you beleive in white privilege? I'll accept answers via yes, no, or essay.
So you answer no questions but demand answers? Just to show I'm reasonable and therefore not an extreme leftist, I will answer. No, I do not believe there is any privilege attached to being white. What privilege are you talking about? Preference in hiring? Actually, minorities get preference under law. Are you talking about preference in college admissions? Minorities get preference there too. Are you talking about minority set asides, racial quotas, grants reserved for minorities and so on? Those are all off limits to white males so not much privilege there.
Please explain what privileges whites have? I am unable to find any. Since you are you, you will not answer directly but will ramble on perhaps about the fact that whites are more successful. Might that be from their own efforts rather than someone handing it to them? I am waiting eagerly to hear about these white privileges. I never knew they existed but you insist they do.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Le_Canard
The Duk Abides


Registered: 05/16/03
Posts: 94,392
Loc: Earthfarm 1
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: Shins]
#21863153 - 06/27/15 08:39 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Shins said: Liberals FEEL like yhe flag I'd racist so in their twisted liberal minds their own selfish feelings and sensibilities over rule the true objective facts.
classic liberal behavior.
The flag is not racist and everyone should not need to change in order to satisfy your illiterate, irrational sensibilities.
Naw, I'm kind of a Lib, but it's not really racist per se. I feel it's a flag representing nothing short of treason.
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: Stonehenge]
#21863190 - 06/27/15 08:46 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Please explain what privileges whites have? I am unable to find any. Since you are you, you will not answer directly but will ramble on perhaps about the fact that whites are more successful. Might that be from their own efforts rather than someone handing it to them? I am waiting eagerly to hear about these white privileges. I never knew they existed but you insist they do.
Privilege is not all or nothing. Different groups have different privileges in different areas and different geographical locations. Whites, minorities, men, and women all enjoy certain privileges at certain times. Do you really believe that there is absolutely no situation where it is better to be white than not white?
To give a few examples, in housing, whites are more likely to be shown a wider variety of options than blacks.One study showed that white sounding names are more likely to receive interviews than black sounding names on the same resume. White Americans are more likely to have their business loans approved when controlling for other factors.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: Le_Canard]
#21863204 - 06/27/15 08:50 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Le_Canard said:
Quote:
Shins said: Liberals FEEL like yhe flag I'd racist so in their twisted liberal minds their own selfish feelings and sensibilities over rule the true objective facts.
classic liberal behavior.
The flag is not racist and everyone should not need to change in order to satisfy your illiterate, irrational sensibilities.
Naw, I'm kind of a Lib, but it's not really racist per se. I feel it's a flag representing nothing short of treason.
Then the usa flag is the flag of treason since we broke away from England just the same as the confederacy tried to break from the union. If one is treason then both are. People have a right to be free if they want to be.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: Stonehenge]
#21863209 - 06/27/15 08:51 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Stonehenge, it's fine if you don't see white privilege. I believe it exists and I believe that affirmative action exists to address it. This is how I, and others, can see affirmative action as anti-racist. You can read the wikipedia article you linked for an example of this kind of thinking that myself and others share.
It's really fine for us to disagree. You can continue to throw veiled insults and try to twist around my position (the definition of a strawman). I don't see black people as less than white people. But I do see that life in our society is different for them, generally worse. Harassment by cops. White people assuming they're criminals. Less likely to be called back on a resume (just based on black sounding names). There's statistical evidence of all of this and I could go on and on all day.
As a white person I'm okay with affirmative action. I'd still take white male everytime given the choice. Just being able to walk down the street with a joint in my pocket and not having to worry about police harassment is enough for me.
Yes, in a perfect world everyone would be treated equally. The fact is that black people are still treated as second class citizens. Yes they get a few breaks on getting into college. I get pretty much all of the rest. 
You can call that racism. Most people would disagree with that definition.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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Le_Canard
The Duk Abides


Registered: 05/16/03
Posts: 94,392
Loc: Earthfarm 1
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: Stonehenge]
#21863245 - 06/27/15 09:01 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Stonehenge said: Naw, I'm kind of a Lib, but it's not really racist per se. I feel it's a flag representing nothing short of treason.
Then the usa flag is the flag of treason since we broke away from England just the same as the confederacy tried to break from the union. If one is treason then both are. People have a right to be free if they want to be.
True, the USA flag is a flag of treason to the Brits. as is the Confederate flag is to an American. But you know, we do have the right to vote here. You may argue it won't count, but it does. ballots instead of bullets, I say. Of course, having said all that, I do feel a private citizen should be free to fly whatever flag they wish. I just have a wee problem with a state entity flying a Confederate battle flag.
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: Stonehenge] 1
#21863249 - 06/27/15 09:01 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said:
Quote:
Le_Canard said:
Quote:
Shins said: Liberals FEEL like yhe flag I'd racist so in their twisted liberal minds their own selfish feelings and sensibilities over rule the true objective facts.
classic liberal behavior.
The flag is not racist and everyone should not need to change in order to satisfy your illiterate, irrational sensibilities.
Naw, I'm kind of a Lib, but it's not really racist per se. I feel it's a flag representing nothing short of treason.
Then the usa flag is the flag of treason since we broke away from England just the same as the confederacy tried to break from the union. If one is treason then both are. People have a right to be free if they want to be.
False equivalence. We're talking about flying the southern flag on U.S. government property. An equivalent argument would be flying the U.S. flag outside the Royal Palace in England.
I don't generally point out people's fallacies like this. But frankly I'm sick of all the ad hominem in this thread coming from a few posters. Especially the ad hominem 'that's a strawman' bullshit. So enjoy your own medicine.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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>Stonehenge, it's fine if you don't see white privilege. I believe it exists and I believe that affirmative action exists to address it.
Why am I not surprised that you once again refused to answer a simple question and as usual ducked and just claimed it exists (white privilege). Is your belief based on faith or can you show us something to verify that it exists? Is it like a religious thing, you feel white privilege in your heart or something but can't see it in the world? Since you can give no examples your failure is clear to see.
We can see aff action, its written into laws, it takes place all the time, people get handouts and special privileges (there goes that word again) for being black or some special group. If we can see aa, why can't we see this mythical white privilege you keep talking about but can never show us?
I can make a case for black privilege and show it does exist.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 1 hour, 37 minutes
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Quote:
paperbackwriter said: Stonehenge, it's fine if you don't see white privilege. I believe it exists and I believe that affirmative action exists to address it. This is how I, and others, can see affirmative action as anti-racist. You can read the wikipedia article you linked for an example of this kind of thinking that myself and others share.
It's really fine for us to disagree. You can continue to throw veiled insults and try to twist around my position (the definition of a strawman). I don't see black people as less than white people. But I do see that life in our society is different for them, generally worse. Harassment by cops. White people assuming they're criminals. Less likely to be called back on a resume (just based on black sounding names). There's statistical evidence of all of this and I could go on and on all day.
As a white person I'm okay with affirmative action. I'd still take white male everytime given the choice. Just being able to walk down the street with a joint in my pocket and not having to worry about police harassment is enough for me.
Yes, in a perfect world everyone would be treated equally. The fact is that black people are still treated as second class citizens. Yes they get a few breaks on getting into college. I get pretty much all of the rest. 
You can call that racism. Most people would disagree with that definition.
"black people are still treated as second class citizens"
Really? I didn't know second class citizens go to become doctors, lawyers, judges, policemen, corporate executives, business owners, multi-millionaires and billionaires, military generals, Congressmen, and even US President!!!
Many people get mistreated and it has to do with class not race, stop looking for racism when it doesn't exist, that's a form of racism in itself.
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Le_Canard
The Duk Abides


Registered: 05/16/03
Posts: 94,392
Loc: Earthfarm 1
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: qman]
#21863291 - 06/27/15 09:14 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
paperbackwriter said: Stonehenge, it's fine if you don't see white privilege. I believe it exists and I believe that affirmative action exists to address it. This is how I, and others, can see affirmative action as anti-racist. You can read the wikipedia article you linked for an example of this kind of thinking that myself and others share.
It's really fine for us to disagree. You can continue to throw veiled insults and try to twist around my position (the definition of a strawman). I don't see black people as less than white people. But I do see that life in our society is different for them, generally worse. Harassment by cops. White people assuming they're criminals. Less likely to be called back on a resume (just based on black sounding names). There's statistical evidence of all of this and I could go on and on all day.
As a white person I'm okay with affirmative action. I'd still take white male everytime given the choice. Just being able to walk down the street with a joint in my pocket and not having to worry about police harassment is enough for me.
Yes, in a perfect world everyone would be treated equally. The fact is that black people are still treated as second class citizens. Yes they get a few breaks on getting into college. I get pretty much all of the rest. 
You can call that racism. Most people would disagree with that definition.
"black people are still treated as second class citizens"
Really? I didn't know second class citizens go to become doctors, lawyers, judges, policemen, corporate executives, business owners, multi-millionaires and billionaires, military generals, Congressmen, and even US President!!!
Many people get mistreated and it has to do with class not race, stop looking for racism when it doesn't exist, that's a form of racism in itself.
I do agree with you. A black person has every opportunity to excel. I think the crux of the problem is with the black community itself. Parents need to push their kids education-wise, black men nned to stop impregnating black women and disappearing or blaming white people for every problem, etc., etc. Of course, there are many, many black people who do these things, and they are fine folks.
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 1 hour, 37 minutes
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: Le_Canard]
#21863674 - 06/27/15 10:39 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Le_Canard said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
paperbackwriter said: Stonehenge, it's fine if you don't see white privilege. I believe it exists and I believe that affirmative action exists to address it. This is how I, and others, can see affirmative action as anti-racist. You can read the wikipedia article you linked for an example of this kind of thinking that myself and others share.
It's really fine for us to disagree. You can continue to throw veiled insults and try to twist around my position (the definition of a strawman). I don't see black people as less than white people. But I do see that life in our society is different for them, generally worse. Harassment by cops. White people assuming they're criminals. Less likely to be called back on a resume (just based on black sounding names). There's statistical evidence of all of this and I could go on and on all day.
As a white person I'm okay with affirmative action. I'd still take white male everytime given the choice. Just being able to walk down the street with a joint in my pocket and not having to worry about police harassment is enough for me.
Yes, in a perfect world everyone would be treated equally. The fact is that black people are still treated as second class citizens. Yes they get a few breaks on getting into college. I get pretty much all of the rest. 
You can call that racism. Most people would disagree with that definition.
"black people are still treated as second class citizens"
Really? I didn't know second class citizens go to become doctors, lawyers, judges, policemen, corporate executives, business owners, multi-millionaires and billionaires, military generals, Congressmen, and even US President!!!
Many people get mistreated and it has to do with class not race, stop looking for racism when it doesn't exist, that's a form of racism in itself.
I do agree with you. A black person has every opportunity to excel. I think the crux of the problem is with the black community itself. Parents need to push their kids education-wise, black men nned to stop impregnating black women and disappearing or blaming white people for every problem, etc., etc. Of course, there are many, many black people who do these things, and they are fine folks.
There's plenty of irresponsible white people as well, they just don't have a scapegoat.
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imachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw



Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 31,375
Loc: You get banned for saying that
Last seen: 16 hours, 30 minutes
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: Le_Canard]
#21870823 - 06/28/15 10:05 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Le_Canard said:
Quote:
Stonehenge said: Naw, I'm kind of a Lib, but it's not really racist per se. I feel it's a flag representing nothing short of treason.
Then the usa flag is the flag of treason since we broke away from England just the same as the confederacy tried to break from the union. If one is treason then both are. People have a right to be free if they want to be.
True, the USA flag is a flag of treason to the Brits. as is the Confederate flag is to an American. But you know, we do have the right to vote here. You may argue it won't count, but it does. ballots instead of bullets, I say. Of course, having said all that, I do feel a private citizen should be free to fly whatever flag they wish. I just have a wee problem with a state entity flying a Confederate battle flag.
Do you think that means there is going to be a battle? The south will rise again? I mean if it was a Nazi flag I understand. That is a flag of conflict all together. Im not even saying southerners aren't retarded to fly it. I guess I'm just saying after all the other stupid crap I've seen people justify who could care what they do in some little hick capital town? When was the last time the confederacy had a battle?
I'll bet in some countries the American flag justifies racism. Its funny because I live about as far south as it gets, and while I live in what is probably considered to be too much of a magnet city to be considered 'southern' traditionally, I doubt anyone here would have half a clue that at one time the confederate flag ever represented racism. Of course I could be wrong. None the less, you don't think this confederate flag thing is just a distraction from some more pressing issues?
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I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
Edited by imachavel (06/28/15 10:08 PM)
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imachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw



Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 31,375
Loc: You get banned for saying that
Last seen: 16 hours, 30 minutes
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: Le_Canard]
#21870832 - 06/28/15 10:06 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Le_Canard said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
paperbackwriter said: Stonehenge, it's fine if you don't see white privilege. I believe it exists and I believe that affirmative action exists to address it. This is how I, and others, can see affirmative action as anti-racist. You can read the wikipedia article you linked for an example of this kind of thinking that myself and others share.
It's really fine for us to disagree. You can continue to throw veiled insults and try to twist around my position (the definition of a strawman). I don't see black people as less than white people. But I do see that life in our society is different for them, generally worse. Harassment by cops. White people assuming they're criminals. Less likely to be called back on a resume (just based on black sounding names). There's statistical evidence of all of this and I could go on and on all day.
As a white person I'm okay with affirmative action. I'd still take white male everytime given the choice. Just being able to walk down the street with a joint in my pocket and not having to worry about police harassment is enough for me.
Yes, in a perfect world everyone would be treated equally. The fact is that black people are still treated as second class citizens. Yes they get a few breaks on getting into college. I get pretty much all of the rest. 
You can call that racism. Most people would disagree with that definition.
"black people are still treated as second class citizens"
Really? I didn't know second class citizens go to become doctors, lawyers, judges, policemen, corporate executives, business owners, multi-millionaires and billionaires, military generals, Congressmen, and even US President!!!
Many people get mistreated and it has to do with class not race, stop looking for racism when it doesn't exist, that's a form of racism in itself.
I do agree with you. A black person has every opportunity to excel. I think the crux of the problem is with the black community itself. Parents need to push their kids education-wise, black men nned to stop impregnating black women and disappearing or blaming white people for every problem, etc., etc. Of course, there are many, many black people who do these things, and they are fine folks.
--------------------
I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: qman]
#21871758 - 06/29/15 02:01 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said: Many people get mistreated and it has to do with class not race, stop looking for racism when it doesn't exist, that's a form of racism in itself.
I'm confused, are you trying to say that racism doesn't exist at all? I agree that the biggest disadvantages are typically class-based, but it would be false to say that racism doesn't exist.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
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Quote:
paperbackwriter said: is this going to be one of those debates were you set up a strawman and then accuse me of making one?
That's the irony of debating Stonehenge. He accuses others of using exactly the tactics he uses, even though they're not using those tactics.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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