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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: Stonehenge] 1
#21859349 - 06/26/15 10:22 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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What extra rights? What special treatment?
The south lost the war. Many of us think that's reason enough the flag shouldn't be displayed on government property. Additionally the flag is a symbol of white male superiority over black people.
It would be like if we had a flag that said a woman's place is in the kitchen outside of the post office. Do you not see how that is oppressive towards half the country?
It's fine for you to say a woman's place is in the kitchen. It's fine for you to believe it. It's fine for you to fly a flag saying that on your own property.
But a government founded on egalitarian principles can not stand by those principles while displaying speech that says something different.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Lordy, another post jammed full of straw man arguments and foolish questions.
>What extra rights? What special treatment?
Affirmative action, minority set asides, quotas for minorities, all that in many forms. Now no doubt you will defend the extra rights instead of admitting I was correct.
>It would be like if we had a flag that said a woman's place is in the kitchen outside of the post office. Do you not see how that is oppressive towards half the country?
>It's fine for you to say a woman's place is in the kitchen
Straw man argument, no one said that. Nor is it in anyway the same as having a flag which stood not for racism but for independence. Perhaps you missed the fact that slavery was still legal even in the north when the south seceded? You probably still believe the lie that it was all about slavery when that was not an issue at all.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: Stonehenge]
#21859455 - 06/26/15 10:54 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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The independent right to ignore our country's founding principles and own other people.
And is this going to be one of those debates were you set up a strawman and then accuse me of making one? You brought up affirmative action in response to me using the word bigot. (Which yes, I do support. When you take a whole population from another country, make a bunch of money off them, and then don't pay them... yes, I believe we should take care of their great grandchildren).
Anyway if that's the kind of debating you're doing I'll just leave you with this.
Orwell was a democratic socialist. He coined the term thoughtcrime. You're not helping your case by leaning on him. Especially when you couple it with comments like...
Quote:
Stonehenge said: The left seems to like the police state and totalitarianism even more than the far right. You never see a leftist speak against making things a thought crime. Stalin instituted totalitarianism and he was a commie.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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So you have fallen apart and give up?
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: Stonehenge]
#21859536 - 06/26/15 11:08 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: So you have fallen apart and give up?
I'm not going to follow you down this path.
I responded to your position that businesses choosing not to carry paraphernalia that most people view as racist was thought policing. You straw manned with vague references to affirmative action. I took that bait :P You then accused me of making a strawman in return because I used an analogy to try to show how the confederate flag could be offensive to people 
If you want to have an honest discussion about thought policing, what the term means, and what actually constitutes fascism I'd love too. 1984 is one of my favorite books 
If you just want to "Win, the internet" I got other shit I could be doing.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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So you run away from your claim that people who don't agree with you are bigots or do you still think that? Do you agree that giving handouts and favoritism to certain races and groups is racism? You never answered that, no surprise there. If you want to talk about legal racism in usa we can discuss that but not go off on a thousand tangents as you seem to prefer.
>You straw manned with vague references to affirmative action.
There is nothing strawman about AA. It is clearly racism and bigotry which is what we were talking about. You prefer to discuss a book or anything except the facts before us.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: Stonehenge] 1
#21859635 - 06/26/15 11:29 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bigot : a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance
Yes, hatred and intolerance is falling out of fashion. Global distributors are wise to recognize this. I stand by my original statement.
Quote:
Racism : poor treatment of or violence against people because of their race : the belief that some races of people are better than others
Affirmative action is not racism.
So who straw manned who now?
You brought up the book. You use thought crime as a buzz word without understanding the meaning behind it. Much as you apparently use bigot and racist.
It's impossible to communicate with someone that intentionally twists words around. So yes, I will 'run away' from this conversation. More like walk away and go make lunch since it's not going anywhere. If your attitude changes when I recheck the thread I'll consider a response.
I'm sure I'm arguing semantics now that I busted out a dictionary.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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"Racism consists of ideologies and practices that seek to justify, or cause, the unequal distribution of privileges, rights or goods among different racial groups. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism
Obviously AA, quotas, and other forms of minority preference are racism.
>It's impossible to communicate with someone that intentionally twists words around.
You gave no link to your left wing definition, I gave Wikipedia which is the more accepted definition. You are the one trying to twist words.
>Yes, hatred and intolerance is falling out of fashion.
I see you promoting hatred and intolerance toward those who wish to fly the flag.
>So yes, I will 'run away' from this conversation.
Yes, run as fast as you can and cover your ears so you don't hear anything that contradicts your world view.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: Stonehenge] 2
#21860005 - 06/26/15 01:10 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Didn't know Merriam Webster was spreading left wing propaganda  That was sarcasm, my google-fu shows both the left and the right claim it's biased! Sounds pretty safe to me!
Affirmative action exists to counter racism. To balance the books. Oh look, it's right there on the page you linked. At the bottom, under anti-racism.
Quote:
Hate crime laws, affirmative action, and bans on racist speech are also examples of government policy designed to suppress racism.
Was just a tad snarky there. Sorry.

As far as my own intolerance...
You can fly the flag all you want. I don't hate you for it. I see you as ignorant and lacking compassion because the flag symbolizes hatred and intolerance to many of us. It symbolizes a dark part of our nation's past. Flying it sends out a signal to the rest of us that you do not believe that black people are our brothers and sisters but rather less than human. No more than property for the rich white man. Rather or not you believe that's what it says isn't relevant. It is what most of us believe and what most of us have believed since around the end of the Civil War.
Can you fly it on public property? Property that belongs to all of us. No. You can fuck off.
Can you buy it? Sure. If you can find a business that doesn't mind being viewed as bigoted for carrying it. Otherwise you can make your own. No one is stopping you. It's not illegal to own. It's not illegal to talk about. It's not even illegal to display on your property.
Does that make us the thought police? haha.. no.
Anyway I mostly wanted to help you out. I don't know where you picked up the term thought police but considering who coined it and the way you kept using it I don't think you quite got the meaning. It's that whole foot in the mouth thing that's just so embarrassing to watch.
I really didn't come in here to argue about the flag. It's done. Most of the right has already come around. I get that it helps. That you're frustrated and upset and need to vent. But it's seriously over. The south lost. Again.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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>Affirmative action exists to counter racism.
It creates more racism to counter imaginary racism. You can't even deny aa is racist but you try to justify it somehow as "good" racism. Is there good racism if its done by the left and bad racism done by others?
>I really didn't come in here to argue about the flag.
That is the topic.
>The south lost.
No, that is not the topic. Did you think the topic was whether or not the south won the war? Are you always this confused?
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: Stonehenge]
#21860347 - 06/26/15 02:25 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: It creates more racism to counter imaginary racism. You can't even deny aa is racist but you try to justify it somehow as "good" racism. Is there good racism if its done by the left and bad racism done by others?
I already illustrated that I don't define racism the way you do. I can cite more dictionaries if you like. I've checked three now and have yet to see a definition that fits yours.
That said, you quoted wikipedia to counter my (multiple dictionary) definition(s) of racism based on a single lead in sentence. Now you want to deny that affirmative action is an anti-racist measure? Which is it? Can we use wikipedia or not? I mean, I clicked your link and cited it! Is wikipedia suddenly no good? Maybe we should settle this like real men and have a good old fashioned wiki edit war!
Whoops sorry, getting snarky again.

Seriously though at this point it really is semantics. You want me to define the word racism the way you do. Most people don't use it the same way you do. Sorry 
I understand you think it's unfair that black people get special treatment. I think it's unfair that when my grandfather was working at a factory my black neighbor's grandfather was being lynched by white sheriffs. I'm cool with helping out my neighbor who didn't have the same benefits (dare I say privilege?) that I did.
Call me racist for that all you want.
Quote:
No, that is not the topic. Did you think the topic was whether or not the south won the war? Are you always this confused?
I meant the south lost the flag debate. Even most of the right, even if they can't see that the flag is racist, they can see that enough moderates and blacks see things that way that it would be political suicide for them to oppose having them removed from government property.
So yeah, the south lost. Again.
Now are you going to read 1984?
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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>Now you want to deny that affirmative action is an anti-racist measure?
Strawman argument once again. Can you discuss anything without distorting what the other side said? Try quoting something where I said that, it does not exist.
I said aa is racist and it is, its obvious to anyone but those blinded by ideology. If a law gave special breaks to whites, you would scream your head off because that is the way you have been trained all your life. You would rightly call it racist. But... when its the other way and gives special breaks to people based on their race and does not give the break to others who are the "wrong" race, you somehow are unable to reason anymore.
>I understand you think it's unfair that black people get special treatment.
Do you really understand? Are you admitting its racism? No, that would be too logical.
>Now are you going to read 1984?
I read it probably long before you did. With your ideological blinders always on, you don't see the irony in your position. Actually the book was more about govt control over our lives and not about liberal racism which may not have existed when orwell was writing.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Shins
Fun guy



Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: Stonehenge]
#21860492 - 06/26/15 02:59 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Liberals FEEL like yhe flag I'd racist so in their twisted liberal minds their own selfish feelings and sensibilities over rule the true objective facts.
classic liberal behavior.
The flag is not racist and everyone should not need to change in order to satisfy your illiterate, irrational sensibilities.
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: Stonehenge] 1
#21860507 - 06/26/15 03:02 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Alright, new topic. Do you know what a fallacy is?
Here, I'll show you one.
I say...
Quote:
That said, you quoted wikipedia to counter my (multiple dictionary) definition(s) of racism based on a single lead in sentence. Now you want to deny that affirmative action is an anti-racist measure? Which is it? Can we use wikipedia or not? I mean, I clicked your link and cited it! Is wikipedia suddenly no good? Maybe we should settle this like real men and have a good old fashioned wiki edit war!
Which is a snarky way of me saying. You cited wikipedia. I cited it too. Wikipedia says the AA is an anti-racist measure. So is wikipedia wrong now?
You respond...
Quote:
Strawman argument once again. Can you discuss anything without distorting what the other side said? Try quoting something where I said that, it does not exist.
See how that works? I counter your using a single lead in sentence in a wikipedia article by using the same article to show how most of the world views the AA as a form of antiracism. Instead of responding you deflect by attacking my use of logic. Claiming that I'm strawmanning.
I know your position. You've made it quite clear. I wonder what logical fallacy it is to act as though your opponent is committing a fallacy when they're not. Or that committing a fallacy somehow invalidates their argument.
Oh here it is... the argument from fallacy or the fallacy fallacy. Shall I quote wikipedia?
Fuck it. To lazy. I'll just link it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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So favoring a certain race is not racism? Answer that simple question if you can. BTW, its a yes or no question, not an essay question. You left wing extremists hate to answer simple questions you would rather muddy the water with irrational statements.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: Stonehenge]
#21860528 - 06/26/15 03:08 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Attempting to make things more equal is not racism no.
I guess you don't believe in white privilege?
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
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Quote:
paperbackwriter said: Attempting to make things more equal is not racism no.
I guess you don't believe in white privilege?
There are good ways and bad ways to make things equal. Just because the intentions of a program are good does not mean that that program is good.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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psilynut
aka Patchraper


Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 1,244
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: Shins]
#21860934 - 06/26/15 05:12 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Liberals FEEL like yhe flag I'd racist so in their twisted liberal minds their own selfish feelings and sensibilities over rule the true objective facts.
classic liberal behavior.
The flag is not racist and everyone should not need to change in order to satisfy your illiterate, irrational sensibilities
Illiterate huh? Ok . The confederate flag is a symbol of slavery and treason . It symbolizes something much worse than just racism . I can't see anything the south has to be proud of . Is it the war they lost , the lynch mobs ? The kkk?
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shroomkingtiger
Stranger
Registered: 06/22/15
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: psilynut]
#21861025 - 06/26/15 05:46 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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The truth is there was no good side in the civil war. One of the only good people was Abraham Lincoln who started printing his own money and freed slaves in an attempt to gain control and stop the sale of slaves in the U.S. If this were not done, the U.S. would be more multicultural like Brazil. The Rothschilds had armies on the Northern and Southern borders ready to help the South but the Russians had brought a fleet of ships to America to deter this threat. Lincoln did the best he could to avoid war. It is said that a lot of slave owners were Jewish. 75% or so. The Confederate flag should be taken down. I love the southern people but they were fighting for the wrong reasons.
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 5 hours, 45 minutes
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Quote:
paperbackwriter said: Attempting to make things more equal is not racism no.
I guess you don't believe in white privilege?
So discriminating against people based on their race isn't racism? I'm sorry, but it is.
"more equal"
Things will never be "equal" in this world, some people are taller, smarter, better looking, and have more money than me, so be it.
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