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DottoreWolfe
Doctor Wolfe


Registered: 02/21/15
Posts: 201
Last seen: 5 months, 12 days
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: ballsalsa] 1
#21937455 - 07/13/15 01:59 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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ballsalsa said:
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DottoreWolfe said: I am a lifetime southerner, and confederate (I believe these united states of America were always meant to be a confederacy, not a single nation, and the federal governments continual encroachment on state's rights has turned us into what we are today). (mind you, I'm studying psych pre-law at Humboldt State and want to go to law school to help restore the constitution, I am no traitor).
i think you are confused
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With the collapse of the confederacy the federal government took on a larger role then ever before and officially ended the notion that the United States was a confederacy
do you think that the Article of Confederation have anything to do with the confederacy? if so, you are mistaken. What ended the notion that the United States was a confederacy was the Constitution which was ratified by the 13th and final state Rhode Island on May 29th 1790. although the first United States Congress had already convened for the first time on March 4th 1789
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federal government has encroached way past the lines set by our founding fathers
If you are talking about the Constitution, then cite an example from the Constitution
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I simply believe in the notion that the united states is a confederacy
but...it's not...before you dedicate too much time to your education, you might want to give this a quick read: http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html
I know the articles of confederation ended with the ratification of the constitution, but I say that even the constitution kept our country as a confederation (and this is why we call our states states). The confederate states of America did have a lot to do with the articles of confederation, the confederate states based their entire belief system of the principle of states' right to nullification and states right to supremacy in certain cases, whilst limiting the federal government's power to essentially only fight wars, make treaties, buy land, admit states and make laws (I mean obviously they did other things too). This ideology goes hand in hand with the political belief during the time of the articles of confederation and the states' rights at that time.
And you would like me to name one line of the federal government encroaching passed the line set by the constitution? I can name plenty, the EPA case that was just settled recently that essentially said federal government can not tell states how much goal they can burn without a proper period of warning, debate, etc. Heres another: Amnesty issued to 1.5 million illegals by president Obama (he has no right to change immigration policy, that must be done by congress or the states). Another? how about the controlled substance act of 1970? The reason alcohol prohibition required an amendment to become law is because no where in the constitution does it allow government to regulate what we put in our bodies. Thusly, the controlled substance act is not valid because it's implementation would have required a constitutional amendment not an approved bill, just like alcohol prohibition. Another? The Patriot Act and the USA Freedom act, allows for "special case" judges to approve warrants with little to no evidence required, far lesser than the probable cause constitutionally ensured to us. These bills allow monitoring of our cell phones, roving wiretaps, bulk data collection, etc with little to no evidence, what happened to the 4th amendment to the U.S. constitution. Do not ever give up your freedom for a little, bit of safety. Remember we all have rights and just because you don't use certain rights (like the right to bear arms) doesn't mean you shouldn't protect that right for others... here is a quote about Hitler's SS by a prominent pastor living in Germany: "First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out, Because I was not a Socialist. Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out Because I was not a Trade Unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out Because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me". This is how your freedoms get stripped, do not let them take away peoples right to wear confederate flags in schools and other buildings, because when they come to take away your right to wear a cross or your anarchy shirt, in the same buildings, who will stand up for you?
Don't be a bully, let me be me and let me express myself, how come I cant express myself in state schools whilst gay people can wear rainbow flags and others' can wear crosses (bible is full of hate, stone adulterers, kill gays), but I wear a confederate flag and I am the on in trouble. You are either free or your not, there is no midway, kind of free, and I do not feel free, because I am banned from expressing my self. Liberals want equality, love, freedom for all, but trust me you don't get there by stripping away the freedoms of others, you get there by granting more freedom to the people. Talk about a nanny government.
-------------------- Everything I post should be regarded as wholly fictitious or hypothetical, nothing I post has any basis in reality.
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: DottoreWolfe]
#21937526 - 07/13/15 02:22 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hear hear! Well said, dot.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,855
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: DottoreWolfe]
#21937737 - 07/13/15 03:15 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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DottoreWolfe said:
Your acting like a simpleton
said the guy who clearly has never read the constitution but wants to spout off about what it says about state's rights...
the same guy who said: Quote:
I simply believe in the notion that the united states is a confederacy
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psyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: ballsalsa]
#21937766 - 07/13/15 03:19 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I mean by definition the united states is a confederacy just in the most general terms.
-------------------- Think for yourself, question authority
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DottoreWolfe
Doctor Wolfe


Registered: 02/21/15
Posts: 201
Last seen: 5 months, 12 days
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: ballsalsa]
#21937808 - 07/13/15 03:28 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said:
Quote:
DottoreWolfe said:
Your acting like a simpleton
said the guy who clearly has never read the constitution but wants to spout off about what it says about state's rights...
the same guy who said: Quote:
I simply believe in the notion that the united states is a confederacy
I have read the constitution many times (maybe, more times than you have...?), but nevertheless it is simply a matter of opinion, you say that these united states are not a confederacy, I say the fathers and the constitution intended for us to be a confederacy. I am certain I, easily, could find a pair of constitutional lawyers, one to support each claim. Don't be acting all aversive (accusing me of never reading the constitution), there is no need for that.
-------------------- Everything I post should be regarded as wholly fictitious or hypothetical, nothing I post has any basis in reality.
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Astral Pain
Strange

Registered: 11/10/14
Posts: 2,923
Loc: Chicago
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: psyconaught]
#21937815 - 07/13/15 03:30 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Predictive programming or coincidence...
-------------------- "I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out" -Bill Hicks-
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DottoreWolfe
Doctor Wolfe


Registered: 02/21/15
Posts: 201
Last seen: 5 months, 12 days
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: Astral Pain]
#21937990 - 07/13/15 04:11 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Astral Pain said: Predictive programming or coincidence...
HAHAHA definitely predictive programming, take down your confederate flag and raise your rainbow ones!(I never will)
-------------------- Everything I post should be regarded as wholly fictitious or hypothetical, nothing I post has any basis in reality.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,855
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: DottoreWolfe]
#21938101 - 07/13/15 04:35 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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DottoreWolfe said: you say that these united states are not a confederacy, I say the fathers and the constitution intended for us to be a confederacy. I am certain I, easily, could find a pair of constitutional lawyers, one to support each claim.
I say that the United States ceased to exist as a confederacy the day the the first united states congress convened. You can have whatever opinion you want about facts, but the facts will remain the same. 
since you know so much about it, why don't you tell us about the Articles of Confederation, why they were done away with in favor of the Constitution, and who agreed to this change?
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DottoreWolfe
Doctor Wolfe


Registered: 02/21/15
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: ballsalsa]
#21939114 - 07/13/15 08:30 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said:
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DottoreWolfe said: you say that these united states are not a confederacy, I say the fathers and the constitution intended for us to be a confederacy. I am certain I, easily, could find a pair of constitutional lawyers, one to support each claim.
I say that the United States ceased to exist as a confederacy the day the the first united states congress convened. You can have whatever opinion you want about facts, but the facts will remain the same. 
since you know so much about it, why don't you tell us about the Articles of Confederation, why they were done away with in favor of the Constitution, and who agreed to this change?
When did I say I knew so much about the articles of confederation. All I said is I read the constitution, why your being so aggressive is beyond me. The articles were done away with for many reasons, one of which is because other countries didn't really know how to deal with these states. When Jefferson(I think it was) went to France, one of the main objections was that they didn't know if he spoke for all the states, or if it was one country or 13. Another reason was the lack of a strong federal government, at this time the feeling of rebellion was strong and many rebellions ensued. Now I haven't had a history class in a while, but I believe it was the whiskey rebellion and shay's rebellion that were the big ones that reall brought a driving force behind the notion of a stronger national government, a United nation of you will. Third was taxation the national government had no power to tax and they had to beg the states for money and it was up to the states to decide to give money or not...most states chose not to, some did but most all for less than what was asked. Another reason was fear of another war with England, the leaders knew we had to have a strong united front to deal with outher countries, like Spain and England as well as pirates and mercenaries who worked hand in hand with these countries. Iccould probably name a few more, but I'm tired. Who agreed to this change, well I don't know the names in particular, but obviously those who wanted a stronger national government. In an attempt to stop any anarchy in the future, plus to strengthen the federal government, the Philadelphia Convention convened with leaders like Benjamin Franklin and I don't know who else (Thomas Jefferson? John Adams? Hancock? to write up a proposed draft of the Constitution in 1787(?)
....now can you stop trying to discredit me I feel like I have proven that I know enough to have an intelligent conversation. What? Do you think cause I like the confederate flag I'm stupid? Because this is how you are acting. Grow up.
-------------------- Everything I post should be regarded as wholly fictitious or hypothetical, nothing I post has any basis in reality.
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Astral Pain
Strange

Registered: 11/10/14
Posts: 2,923
Loc: Chicago
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: DottoreWolfe]
#21939527 - 07/13/15 09:54 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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-------------------- "I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out" -Bill Hicks-
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,855
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: DottoreWolfe]
#21939692 - 07/13/15 10:28 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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DottoreWolfe said: ....now can you stop trying to discredit me I feel like I have proven that I know enough to have an intelligent conversation. What? Do you think cause I like the confederate flag I'm stupid? Because this is how you are acting. Grow up.
I'm sorry if it feels like i am attacking you personally. that isn't my intention. I just have a hard time understanding your position. You claim that the founders always meant for our nation to be a confederacy, and indeed, it was founded as one. That didn't work out, so it was scrapped, and a new constitution was written and ratified by the new United States of America.(almost right away) from that point on the United States was no longer a confederacy. I don't know how else to interpret these events.
by all means, dazzle me with your insights. explain to me how i am misinterpreting history. I'm always thirsty for knowledge. But expect that i will refute your assertions to the best of my ability. The better to fully come to grips with the answer myself.
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DottoreWolfe
Doctor Wolfe


Registered: 02/21/15
Posts: 201
Last seen: 5 months, 12 days
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: ballsalsa]
#21940148 - 07/14/15 12:27 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I just believe with the ratification of the constitution the confederacy continued, nowhere does it say in the constitution that we are not a confederacy, why do you think we are not, because we abandoned the articles? The idea of states rights and the notion that we were 13 countries not 1 country was surely a common one, it may not be so much of an officialy established confederacy, but an unofficial one established simply by the political beliefs held by nearly all persons at that time. Neither of our opinions can be proven either way, I'll happily change my view provided with evidence of the contrary.
-------------------- Everything I post should be regarded as wholly fictitious or hypothetical, nothing I post has any basis in reality.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,855
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: DottoreWolfe]
#21940195 - 07/14/15 12:40 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Constitution#1788_Ratification
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1788 Ratification
Transmitted to the Articles Congress then sitting in New York City, the Constitution was forwarded to the states by Congress recommending the ratification process outlined in the Constitution. Each state legislature was to call elections for a "Federal Convention" to ratify the Constitution. They expanded the franchise beyond the Constitutional requirement to more nearly embrace "the people". Eleven ratified initially, and all thirteen unanimously did so a year later. The Articles Congress certified eleven states to begin the new government, and called the states to hold elections to begin operation. It then dissolved itself on March 4, 1789, the day the first session of the First Congress began. George Washington was inaugurated as President two months later.
It was within the power of the old Congress to expedite or block the ratification of the new Constitution. The document that the Philadelphia Convention presented was technically only a revision of the Articles of Confederation. But the last article of the new instrument provided that when ratified by conventions in nine states (or two-thirds at the time), it should go into effect among the States so acting.
i dunno man, this sounds like a systematic and deliberate dismantling of the confederate system and replacement with the federal system...
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Enlil
OTD God-King




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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: ballsalsa] 1
#21940945 - 07/14/15 07:48 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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You guys are just arguing terminology, really. The U.S. is a federalist system. Each state is a sovereign, and the federal government is a sovereign. Neither is, by design, subordinate to the other. The states have a sphere of control in which they are sovereign and the Federal government has a sphere where it is sovereign.
It's not quite a confederacy, but it's not quite a single sovereign nation either.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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WAN
Stranger
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: Enlil] 1
#21942731 - 07/14/15 04:27 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Enlil said: Anyone who doesn't believe in white privilege in the U.S. is either willfully blind about it or trying to protect his/her own white privilege.
Nice "because I say so" statement. I can equally say, "anybody who thinks and talks like Enlil is either willfully blind or trying to protect his/her own liberal outlook".
Edited by WAN (07/14/15 05:42 PM)
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: WAN]
#21943182 - 07/14/15 06:00 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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hey WAN! welcome back!
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WAN
Stranger
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Quote:
thebitterbuffalo26 said: Still looking for that elusive heritage and history of the deep south...
Why should we let you dictate the terms of the debate? Why should we talk about what you want to talk about?
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WAN
Stranger
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thebitterbuffalo26 said: How do you know that yall aren't the sheep being brainwashed into believing there's a relevant purpose for the flag? In with the new out with the old doesn't sound like being brainwashed, it sounds like a logically progressive thing to do. Vs being stuck in the irrelevant past
Not all that is new is good
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WAN
Stranger
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: ballsalsa]
#21943320 - 07/14/15 06:28 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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ballsalsa said: hey WAN! welcome back!
lol! hehe thanks!
yea I was perma-banned at first but they later reduced my ban to just 7 days
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: Latest attempt to ban confederate flag [Re: WAN]
#21952537 - 07/16/15 03:44 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Lol
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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