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 Paul808996
newbie
Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 47
Last seen: 14 years, 6 months
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 casing question 
#2182258 - 12/16/03 11:13 AM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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i'm just wondering how much of a differance in terms of yeild would there be when casing using verm and coir compared to only verm. does coir provide any nutrients or does it just hold more water.
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Vertigo
Mycovoire
Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 289
Loc: Panhandle
Last seen: 5 years, 8 months
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Re: casing question [Re: Paul808996]
#2182355 - 12/16/03 11:51 AM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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only h2o
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"One side will make you grow taller, and the other side will make you grow shorter."
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 LateForTheFuture
Old Hand
 
Registered: 02/24/03
Posts: 845
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Re: casing question [Re: Paul808996]
#2182397 - 12/16/03 12:04 PM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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Coir provides many nutrients for the cakes, NOT just h2o. Coir is simply a fantastic substitute for peat sphagnum moss. I highly reccomend using coir instead of straight verm, as verm is non nutritious and is only used to retain water. I know I get my best flushes with coir  (besides straw and poo, of course.)
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zbgeed
Journeyman
Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 95
Loc: My Hideout
Last seen: 19 years, 5 months
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if you were making a casing wouldnt nutrients be a bad thing? that would just bring on contaminates wouldnt it?
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LateForTheFuture
Old Hand
Registered: 02/24/03
Posts: 845
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Re: casing question [Re: zbgeed]
#2182656 - 12/16/03 01:34 PM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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Not neccesarily... I have a 0 contam rate, I just have good sterile procedures, thats all. Just look at the pictures in the grow log forums and you'll see how "bad" nutrients can be (lets hope you sense that sarcasm...). The nutrients found in BRF, coir, poo, etc... are all good. They help your fungus get nice and big 
If these nutrients were "bad", people would be injecting jars full of just moist vermiculite, wouldn't they? Go for the 60/40 coir my friend, its a great way of doing things. You shouldn't have contaminants if your procedures are good - I just did a batch of 70 jars with a 0% contam rate... Every casing I've ever done has came out great too. I always microwave my casing layer, 5 minutes (stir), then 5 minutes again. Buy some rubber gloves, 99% rubbing alcohol, and lysol, and that should all help out a whole lot. Good luck in whatever you choose to do
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Anonymous
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according to http://www.shroomery.org/index/par/23435
"The term "casing" as it is used in the mushroom cultivation is the method by which substrate (either PF style cakes or colonized grain) is crumbled into smaller pieces, and covered with a non -nutritive layer such as peat, vermiculite, coco coir and different mixtures with additives."
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LateForTheFuture
Old Hand
Registered: 02/24/03
Posts: 845
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Hmm... I disagree that coir/peat or other additives are non-nutritive. Thats the same as saying soil is non-nutritive. Vermiculite, on the other hand, simply retains water. If they had no "nutrients" then why use different kinds of casing layers, such as poo? If it was "non-nutritive", then you wouldn't be accomplishing much IMO. The fungus needs "nutrients", or a food, to grow. Maybe it depends on your definition of a nutrient? Mycelium colonizes a jar because of the BRF inside, which is a "food" to the mycelium. Cultivators add the BRF for a reason, just as you add the coir to your casing layer for a reason.
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Comfortably_Numb
FriendlyStranger
Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 277
Loc: Here (not everywhere)
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Is it necessary to case your coco coir with limestone flour?
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Anonymous
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yes, but the reason is water retention, not nutrition. you dont want a nutrient rich topping, imagine the contam issues. BRF/Verm is a substrate which is a lot different than a casing layer, without the nutrients in the substrate you would have nothing.
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Northernsoul
Your Reality
Registered: 11/17/01
Posts: 2,290
Loc: Inner Eye
Last seen: 13 years, 4 months
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Re: casing question [Re: Paul808996]
#2182836 - 12/16/03 02:50 PM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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I belive the biggest purpose for using these casing layers casing layers such as peat and coc vary in results purely on thier water retainment, contamination resistance, ariation factors, and on a lesser scale nutrients. Yes Coc does give good results, but I belive that this is because of its supurb water distrubility, retainment and the excellet ariation it provides for the substrate. The substrate to me, and in my minds eye makes more sense in where most nutrents come from in terms of food or something. Nutrients from millet, grain, ground rice....any startches and so on. I havent studies this area, but through practical and observation, this is the conclusion and opinion I have in this area of question 
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When it comes
I'll know, I know
Just take my clothes and leave
And I'll be gone
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Ekstaza
stranger than most
Registered: 04/10/03
Posts: 4,324
Loc: Around the corner
Last seen: 1 year, 15 days
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Quote:
LateForTheFuture said:
Hmm... I disagree that coir/peat or other additives are non-nutritive. Thats the same as saying soil is non-nutritive. Vermiculite, on the other hand, simply retains water. If they had no "nutrients" then why use different kinds of casing layers, such as poo? If it was "non-nutritive", then you wouldn't be accomplishing much IMO. The fungus needs "nutrients", or a food, to grow. Maybe it depends on your definition of a nutrient? Mycelium colonizes a jar because of the BRF inside, which is a "food" to the mycelium. Cultivators add the BRF for a reason, just as you add the coir to your casing layer for a reason.
You my friend, are confused as to what a casing layer is. Poo is not a casing layer, it is a substrate. So is brf, straw, wbs, grain, etc. Anything that has any nutritive value should only be added to the substrate. Casing layers should be comprised only of non-nutritive substances that aid in the retention of water. The reason for adding coco coir is to help retain water, nothing else.
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YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.
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Anonymous
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Re: casing question [Re: Ekstaza]
#2182894 - 12/16/03 03:04 PM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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looks for the applause smiley. well said to both of yous^^
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Northernsoul
Your Reality
Registered: 11/17/01
Posts: 2,290
Loc: Inner Eye
Last seen: 13 years, 4 months
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Re: casing question [Re: Ekstaza]
#2182903 - 12/16/03 03:06 PM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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EKSTAZA: "Anything that has any nutritive value should only be added to the substrate. Casing layers should be comprised only of non-nutritive substances that aid in the retention of water. The reason for adding coco coir is to help retain water, nothing else."....
Yeah, what I was thinking. Coir is an aswom retainer of water...no nutrients. And Ive been hearing things about it being resistant to contams a little better than some other stuff. .....My point is, yeah, its just to retain and distribute water. Substrates are the nutrition (if you wanna call it that) part......
I wasnt sure, but thanks for backing my guess up EKSTAZA.
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When it comes
I'll know, I know
Just take my clothes and leave
And I'll be gone
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LateForTheFuture
Old Hand
Registered: 02/24/03
Posts: 845
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Interesting. Thanks guys, we definitely needed some second opinions.
Although I agree, I still remain resolved that coco coir is a nutritive substance. Hypothetically, could a colonized piece of coir could in fact be used as a substrate, am I right? I am currently growing some Venus Fly Traps in pure coir, so tell me, how is this possible if it is "non-nutritive" as you say? I simply cannot see how coir is lacking of any nutrients, as I'm sure it possesses some if any. "non-nutritive" would mean it consists of none.
I could be wrong, who knows. Thats my input. Besides all that, back to the main point-- I say go for the verm and coir mixture.
Edited by LateForTheFuture (12/16/03 03:29 PM)
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Paul808996
newbie
Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 47
Last seen: 14 years, 6 months
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thanks for all the replys. it seems to me that a casing in general is non-nutritios(like verm). things added to the casing may be nutritious such as peat or coir, but the more nutritious they are the higher the chance of contams. peat and coir probly are low in nuriants or are fairly resistant to contams, and thats probly why they work so well. I'm know peat has nutriants in it(otherwise you wouldn't be able to grow plants in it). Coir probly does too and thats why you get bigger flushers useing either of those instead of just vermaculite. If it was just because of water retention then wouldn't casing with just verm result in the biggest flushes because it retains the most water. that is just what i've come to think based on all the information.
also, does any one know of any pics or grow logs of casings using straight verm?
thanks
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zbgeed
Journeyman
Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 95
Loc: My Hideout
Last seen: 19 years, 5 months
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Re: casing question [Re: Paul808996]
#2183230 - 12/16/03 04:29 PM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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one was just made by a friend. yesterday. today the mycleium came through in a few spots.
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Hanky
wiffle bat.
Registered: 08/30/03
Posts: 56,993
Loc: Great Southern Land.
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Re: casing question [Re: Paul808996]
#2184167 - 12/16/03 10:34 PM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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i only ever use straight coir for casings now,no lime,oyster shells or any other ph buffer.
here's why.
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Coaster is an idiot...
[quote]Coaster said:
but i thnk everything thats pure is white?
[/quote]
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llamaboy
the weasel thatsnagged the bee
Registered: 11/08/03
Posts: 563
Loc: Portland PNW
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
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just a thought about that venus fly trap remark...the reason that it is most likely growing is because that is how it evolved...in it's natural enviroment a venus flytrap is happy in a swamp area, which are usually high in nitrogen...when something is living in something so nitrogenous as swamp soil, something peculiar happens. the nitrogen keeps the plant from being able to obtain sustinance from the soil in which it resides. the intresting thing about venus fly traps is that they evolved to catch bugs, and thus circumvent obtaining their nutrition from the soil...all the nutrition that a venus fly trap needs come from what it catches...also, if you grow you venus flytrap on a nutrious well adjusted soil, you should not feed it, as it will most likely die
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