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laughingdog
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Re: the sixth mass extinction is officially here [Re: Rahz] 1
#24467638 - 07/08/17 12:23 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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I get that you, Rhaz, don't like the analogy, and that you seem to know more details about population than I do, but the analogy becomes more apt when you consider other factors than just population growth - namely the unprecedented extinctions presently going on with loss of genetic diversity, and pollution of all sorts (nuclear, plastic, chemical, as well as pharmaceutical drugs in drinking water and fish, etc.) world wide, and the coming world wide water crisis, the ticking nuclear clock, fields of land mines still maiming people, hundreds nay thousands of years of continual war, the horrible quality of life in vast areas of the big cities as well as smog that kills folks in all areas of many mega cities and forces them to remain indoors, the death of the coral reefs and acidification of the oceans .... as well as declining nutrition, over fishing, slaughter of the whales, orbiting junk in space, and of course the burning of the worlds rainforests etc. -- then the analogy to something with an unpleasant association, that gets out of control, seems an appropriate balance to the usual human hubris. In my view we are well past the point of reversing the present disastrous trends.
I expect that in the future events like happened in Flint Michigan with the water supply poisoning people, and mad cow disease killing people, from feeding vegetarian animals meat (from their own species even!) will not be atypical.
Even in the Western nations, where you feel there is better education, political events for example, would seem, to show that human reason is rather powerless, compared to other forces at work, that are anything but benign.
All great empires in the past have fallen. (Usually at least partly from overexploiting available resources as well as over compelxity) Now in one sense one might say there is a world wide technological empire. I expect it to implode as all others have done. To expect otherwise seems to me to ignore the obvious, or as the cliche says to be "drinking the cool aid".
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: the sixth mass extinction is officially here [Re: laughingdog]
#24467743 - 07/08/17 01:29 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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I thought I saw an error in your assessment that humans can't control their population so I pointed it out. That doesn't mean I'm optimistic about the situation.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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laughingdog
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Re: the sixth mass extinction is officially here [Re: Rahz]
#24470385 - 07/09/17 02:50 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: I thought I saw an error in your assessment that humans can't control their population so I pointed it out. That doesn't mean I'm optimistic about the situation.
indeed
I expect so many of us here don't watch TV that we overlook its vast influence on Americans, it could be characterized in Orwellian or conspiracy terms, or simply as mental pollution - but regardless of how we label it, I think American TV may have become a major negative force upon the planet. The irony of course is that it is a self administered form of mind numbing, without even the limited advantages of alcohol.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


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Re: the sixth mass extinction is officially here [Re: DividedQuantum]
#26375574 - 12/11/19 05:16 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
A Million Species in Danger
by Roni Dengler Discover Magazine January/Feburary 2020
One millions species face extinction, more than ever before in human history, according to a U.N. report released in May.
And humanity is responsible.
The Intergovernmental Science-Policy Platform on Biodiversity and Ecosystem Services (IPBES) based the assessment of some 15,000 sources that consider the causes and consequences of environmental changes over the past 50 years.
The findings are stark. The authors found that about 25 percent of the world's plants and animals are vulnerable to extinction. These include over a third of marine mammals and more than 40 percent of amphibians. Even domesticated animals are at risk: Over 9 percent of domesticated mammal breeds used for food and agriculture already may have been lost.
The rapid decline of the natural world endangers global food security and quality of life. For instance, an estimated 4 billion people rely on natural medicines, produced by the vanishing species, for their health care. And losses of species that pollinate plants would threaten up to $577 billion in crops each year.
The researchers identified five drivers responsible for the grim news. At the top of that list is land- and sea-use change: the conversion of ecosystems to agriculture, aquaculture and other human developments. It's followed by the direct exploitation of organisms (overharvesting, logging, hunting and fishing) and climate change, including rising sea levels and increasing extreme-weather events, wildfires, floods and droughts. The final culprits are pollution -- especially plastics -- and the spread of invasive species, non-native organisms that can displace or kill native plants and animals.
That authors say only "transformative change" -- such as a new global approach toward consumption and waste -- could turn the tables. Whether that's possible is an open question.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Yellow Pants


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Re: the sixth mass extinction is officially here [Re: DividedQuantum]
#26375655 - 12/11/19 05:57 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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A firm redirection towards the idealism of environmentalism is in order. Problem is that it seems that it’s not all exactly clear what is environmentally friendly and what is not. Some things are obvious which ought to be tackled outright but I get that feel we’re in the dark regarding other things. For example I can’t even tell whether animal agriculture is bad or not. Rice takes a hella amount of water to produce as does Beef but cow crap is good fertilizer for crop rotations.
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RJ Tubs 202


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Re: the sixth mass extinction is officially here [Re: Yellow Pants]
#26376281 - 12/11/19 11:33 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Yellow Pants said:
For example I can’t even tell whether animal agriculture is bad or not.
It's often said that it takes 16 pounds of grain to raise one pound of beef, which is interesting... Although rice tolerates submergence, it's not an aquatic species. The one and only reason rice is flooded by farmers is for arresting weed growth. Some good trivia for your next cocktail party!
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Buckomcdoogle
Atypical obsessive.


Registered: 11/27/19
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Re: the sixth mass extinction is officially here [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
#26376376 - 12/12/19 01:10 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Why do you think all of the elites of the world are investing big in space?
"Professor Stephen Hawking thinks the human species will have to populate a new planet within 100 years if it is to survive," the BBC said in a statement posted online. "With climate change, overdue asteroid strikes, epidemics and population growth, our own planet is increasingly precarious."
While Hawking holds fast to his theory, he says there is still hope if humans can find a way to colonize another planet.
“We must also continue to go into space for the future of humanity,” Hawking said during a 2016 speech at Britain’s Oxford University Union.
“Although the chance of a disaster on planet Earth in a given year may be quite low, it adds up over time, becoming a near certainty in the next thousand or ten thousand years..
-------------------- "Nothing is more dangerous to your creativity than comfort and familiarity" "Nihilism is the most basic truth in existence, the only consistency throughout the world, and the universe is chaos and decay" "Logic leads to nihilism"
Edited by Buckomcdoogle (12/12/19 01:11 AM)
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Loaded Shaman
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Re: the sixth mass extinction is officially here [Re: Buckomcdoogle]
#26376382 - 12/12/19 01:13 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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The elites will not let the system collapse as it's pointless to have nothing to control, and that's their entire paradigm.
--------------------
  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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Buckomcdoogle
Atypical obsessive.


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Re: the sixth mass extinction is officially here [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#26376387 - 12/12/19 01:17 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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I agree The people in power want business to continue as usual. At the same time, these people know a lot of things we don't.
Things could potentially get very out of control very fast is some severe crisis happened.
DHS did a study a few years back and found if the power grid ever went out for the long term, 90% of our population would be dead within a year.
-------------------- "Nothing is more dangerous to your creativity than comfort and familiarity" "Nihilism is the most basic truth in existence, the only consistency throughout the world, and the universe is chaos and decay" "Logic leads to nihilism"
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pineninja
Dream Weaver



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Re: the sixth mass extinction is officially here [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#26376392 - 12/12/19 01:23 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Loaded Shaman said: The elites will not let the system collapse as it's pointless to have nothing to control, and that's their entire paradigm.
Ticks will kill the host if allowed to. Self preservation can be incredibly short sighted.
-------------------- Just a fool on the hill.
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pineninja
Dream Weaver



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Re: the sixth mass extinction is officially here [Re: DividedQuantum]
#26376395 - 12/12/19 01:26 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Very true. I guess another example would be the former Tibet. They were quite isolated, self-sufficient, non-expansionist and sustainable. Left to their own devices they'd still be that way.
Aboriginal people here had maintained population for 50000y plus. Social structures and rules capped possible expansion.
-------------------- Just a fool on the hill.
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Loaded Shaman
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Re: the sixth mass extinction is officially here [Re: pineninja]
#26376480 - 12/12/19 03:28 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
pineninja said:
Quote:
Loaded Shaman said: The elites will not let the system collapse as it's pointless to have nothing to control, and that's their entire paradigm.
Ticks will kill the host if allowed to. Self preservation can be incredibly short sighted.
Right, so the magic lies in convincing you they're ticks (clueless, greedy, short-sighted) instead of puppet masters (long game) whom control perception and narrative to implant that logic in the population's mind the first place.
"Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity" is a logical fallacy that simultanesouly seals off the average person from critical thinking and seals in sociopaths who know how to game regular people from all angles.
The average person is an egotistical know it all, and admitting they've been fooled is equal to death to them. This world is quite literally set up from all sides to be run by the sociopathic and psychotic.
Everything is conveniently and constantly a "just around the corner" disaster. Stoke the flames, people will spend money they don't really have and support agendas that are against their best interest. This is one of those agendas IMHO.
--------------------
  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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Buckomcdoogle
Atypical obsessive.


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Re: the sixth mass extinction is officially here [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#26376488 - 12/12/19 03:35 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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"World war 3 is just around the corner"
World war 3 has been just around the corner since about 10 minutes after world war 2 ended.
I wonder how many gas masks are sold every year.
The thing with a gas mask is, people in the military will tell you this. They are only designed to keep you alive long enough to complete your mission.
The whole prepper mentality is a trap. It lines the pockets of people who manufacture that shit. Y2K sure was great for business
Ultimately if something really bad happens there wont be much you can do about it, besides go live in the woods. Its good to be prepared but that's no way to live
-------------------- "Nothing is more dangerous to your creativity than comfort and familiarity" "Nihilism is the most basic truth in existence, the only consistency throughout the world, and the universe is chaos and decay" "Logic leads to nihilism"
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pineninja
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Posts: 12,468
Loc: South
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Re: the sixth mass extinction is officially here [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#26376496 - 12/12/19 03:54 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Loaded Shaman said:
Quote:
pineninja said:
Quote:
Loaded Shaman said: The elites will not let the system collapse as it's pointless to have nothing to control, and that's their entire paradigm.
Ticks will kill the host if allowed to. Self preservation can be incredibly short sighted.
Right, so the magic lies in convincing you they're ticks (clueless, greedy, short-sighted) instead of puppet masters (long game) whom control perception and narrative to implant that logic in the population's mind the first place.
"Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity" is a logical fallacy that simultanesouly seals off the average person from critical thinking and seals in sociopaths who know how to game regular people from all angles.
The average person is an egotistical know it all, and admitting they've been fooled is equal to death to them. This world is quite literally set up from all sides to be run by the sociopathic and psychotic.
Everything is conveniently and constantly a "just around the corner" disaster. Stoke the flames, people will spend money they don't really have and support agendas that are against their best interest. This is one of those agendas IMHO.
I just cannot believe my average intelligence has led me blindly down the path. I feel like dying.
Look around.
Is this sustainable. Is there some bunny in the hat that I simply cannot see.
These puppet masters so smart that here we are questioning?
The most skillful part of their finale is shown through those who give them measures of intellect in place of ignorance.
As the beast finally succumbs to the thousand bites they whisper softly.."Dont worry, we got this" Imho
-------------------- Just a fool on the hill.
Edited by pineninja (12/12/19 04:14 AM)
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laughingdog
Stranger

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Re: the sixth mass extinction is officially here [Re: pineninja]
#26377091 - 12/12/19 12:02 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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IMO the idea that elites will survive, or that humans can escape to another planet, moon, or space station, is mistaken, because it fails to understand (1) just how interconnected everything in the ecosystem is, and (2) if there is no change in human behavior/consciousness it will make no difference, even if they do "set up shop" somewhere else for a while. In fact this attitude that one can mess up whatever one wants, and then move on, is just another aspect of the selfishness, and lack of respect for anything other than oneself, & one's immediate family and circle, that has caused the destruction of the planet for the quality for human life as we have known it. Native peoples, especially before civilization, all respected nature and knew they were part of it. I am not smarter than Hawking, but he apparently never spent much time in the country as a kid. Which is probably true of a lot of the "big heads", and they probably never tripped or meditated either. Their fancy ideas of escape, show their one sided intellectual and arrogant ideas to be just that.
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Buckomcdoogle
Atypical obsessive.


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Re: the sixth mass extinction is officially here [Re: laughingdog]
#26377210 - 12/12/19 01:26 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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But these people ARE wealthy enough to make it work.
All they would need to do is basically build another international space station except on mars, the moon or some far off earth like planet. Stock it with enough supplies to last a small amount of people a number of life times.
Jeff Bezos is working on pay per flight trips to space
"Jeff Bezos is an Internet entrepreneur and also the founder of Blue Origin. The company is known for its work on New Shepard — a suborbital space rocket that includes a crew capsule for future paying passengers. New Shepard made a world-first first-stage rocket landing on land in 2015."
Elon Musk, love him of hate him invests huge money in aerospace.
"Elon Musk is the founder, CEO and lead designer at Space Exploration Technologies (SpaceX), where he oversees the development and manufacturing of advanced rockets and spacecraft for missions to and beyond Earth orbit. Founded in 2002, SpaceX’s mission is to enable humans to become a spacefaring civilization..."
Even the Chinese government, they are doing so well financially that they are finding all sorts of things to invest that money in.(Isn't it amazing what you can do when you don't spend more than half your budget of pointless foreign wars)
Chinese Space Program "The space program of the People's Republic of China is directed by the China National Space Administration (CNSA). Its technological roots can be traced back to the late 1950s, when China began a ballistic missile program in response to perceived American (and, later, Soviet) threats. However, the first Chinese crewed space program only began several decades later, when an accelerated program of technological development culminated in Yang Liwei's successful 2003 flight aboard Shenzhou 5. This achievement made China the third country to independently send humans into space. Plans currently include a permanent Chinese space station in 2020 and crewed expeditions to the Moon."
Just look at how Computer science has evolved in only the last 20 years.
Im not old, but I remember what it was like to have dial up. 20 years later the average person walks around with a mini super computer in their pocket.
I forgot whats its called....... But they say that every 1-2 years the amount of circuitry you can fit in 1 small space doubles.
The technology will certainly get there.
-------------------- "Nothing is more dangerous to your creativity than comfort and familiarity" "Nihilism is the most basic truth in existence, the only consistency throughout the world, and the universe is chaos and decay" "Logic leads to nihilism"
Edited by Buckomcdoogle (12/12/19 01:45 PM)
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pineninja
Dream Weaver



Registered: 08/17/14
Posts: 12,468
Loc: South
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Re: the sixth mass extinction is officially here [Re: Buckomcdoogle] 1
#26377222 - 12/12/19 01:31 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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*Crazy talk below
The new technology may allow space travel from the comfort of your couch.
There are VR shops opening here...some kids would prefer to keep the visors on..with this layer becoming polluted and stagnet.
What seems ridiculous now may well not be soon enough.
Imagine a new vr universe beggining again as this one becomes untenable.
Imagine that we may have done it before.
Technological singularity. Environmental collapse. Simulated reality. Coincidentally perhaps.
Exquisite timing. Freedom abounds. Death denying. Artificial surrounds.
Colliding juxtapositions. Inevitably unseen. Pointless Seditions. Slate clean.
Layered convergance. Fields dissolved. New emergence. Vacuum resolved.
-------------------- Just a fool on the hill.
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Buckomcdoogle
Atypical obsessive.


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Re: the sixth mass extinction is officially here [Re: pineninja]
#26377260 - 12/12/19 01:51 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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The future is now.
Many of these obscure Sci-fi stories from decades ago are slowly coming true.
None more than 1984
The minority report and Terminator are my favorites.
The stuff with the facial recognition, the self driving cars, Pre-crime, the AI in peoples homes. It's all happening
Same thing with terminator, One of the biggest sectors of U.S military investment is drones.
-------------------- "Nothing is more dangerous to your creativity than comfort and familiarity" "Nihilism is the most basic truth in existence, the only consistency throughout the world, and the universe is chaos and decay" "Logic leads to nihilism"
Edited by Buckomcdoogle (12/12/19 01:58 PM)
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laughingdog
Stranger

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Re: the sixth mass extinction is officially here [Re: pineninja]
#26377331 - 12/12/19 02:11 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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I disagree
the few folks in the space station are dependent on thousands on the ground they have only been up there a short while besides bone loss what else is happening to them? they have never survived a solar storm they have never gone into deep space
2) if there is no change in human behavior/consciousness it will make no difference, even if some do "set up shop" somewhere else for a while. The same egotistical factors will screw it all up before long.
The folks in the space station are constantly being watched. They are very High IQ They are extraordinarily healthy, & relatively young they are trained to be in control of their emotions they are types that are excited by doing research in conditions most folks would find intolerable their lives are anything but representative of 'normal' human interactions
We do not understand our own biology, we have only just discovered, the micro biome, that 'junk DNA' has a lot of viral coding in it. The brain, cancer, dreams - the list of what we don't understand is far greater than what we do. But finding more and more interdependencies would not be surprising.
A little research on the health statistics of Americans will show, leaving earth is not a viable option for the vast majority. Same for the world's poor. And the wealthy are not trained astronauts either.
Personally the notion that living in a can, whether it is a space station, cave on the moon, or quonset hut on mars, or was a submarine in WWll, and calling it some sort of 'quality of life' and the next 'chapter in the glorious saga of humanity's triumph' seems insane.
I have no problem accepting that humans have fucked up royally, and will continue to do so until they are gone, and some other species gets the limelight, on earth for a relatively short while, and then again another, and so on. I have no problem accepting that there are no immortal souls, and all phenomenon are impermanent, and that meaning is a mental construct, in a brain that runs an approximate simulation of 'reality', for a 'self' that is contingent, unstable, impermanent, and totally interdependent. For anyone that needs hope, however the Sci-Fi story of how: "humans migrated from earth and populated the galaxy", makes for good entertainment. IMO.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: the sixth mass extinction is officially here [Re: laughingdog]
#26377350 - 12/12/19 02:19 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
laughingdog said: IMO the idea that elites will survive, or that humans can escape to another planet, moon, or space station, is mistaken, because it fails to understand (1) just how interconnected everything in the ecosystem is, and (2) if there is no change in human behavior/consciousness it will make no difference, even if they do "set up shop" somewhere else for a while. In fact this attitude that one can mess up whatever one wants, and then move on, is just another aspect of the selfishness, and lack of respect for anything other than oneself, & one's immediate family and circle, that has caused the destruction of the planet for the quality for human life as we have known it. Native peoples, especially before civilization, all respected nature and knew they were part of it. I am not smarter than Hawking, but he apparently never spent much time in the country as a kid. Which is probably true of a lot of the "big heads", and they probably never tripped or meditated either. Their fancy ideas of escape, show their one sided intellectual and arrogant ideas to be just that.
This is quite correct. For one thing, the elites are every much a part of this game as anyone else, regardless of how much they or anyone else may differ.
Secondly, it is not at all clear that people can live satisfactorily on the Moon or Mars at all, not to mention the fact that the technology is still not there to attempt to do it. Would you want to live in a featureless wasteland in which you could never go outside and feel the breeze or the sun on your skin? How do we even know we can live in very different gravitational fields? Would we be able to remain sane in colonies on the Moon and Mars, knowing that Earth, and billions of its inhabitants, were dead? Etc., etc. No one really thinks through this stuff.
And laughingdog is quite right that this whole notion that we can spread our cancers to other places completely ignores the overwhelming interconnectedness of life on Earth. We evolved to be here and only here; probably, living on another planet would run up against a host of problems no one foresaw, including, and perhaps especially, mental health. There are hundreds of issues.
No, we had better get used to the idea of waking up or going down with the ship, because civilization very probably cannot be rebuilt on Mars. Where will all the resources come from? The factories? The mines? The labor? And of course, the technology even to try has not been created!
People seem to forget that the vast number of technologies that will have to be created for space migration simply do not exist. It's not some trivial matter to spend hundreds of billions on them, either! This is not an easy, short-term thing.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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