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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
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Proof of reality
#21826878 - 06/19/15 06:25 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Proof of reality. I cannot prove to you that god does not exist but you cannot claim that he does.
A claim in god is to claim the existence of consciousness without matter.
I cannot prove to you that a square circle does not exist and I do not have to because it is rationally impossible.
Claiming that consciousness can exist without matter is also rationally impossible and you are required to produce physical evidence to support it. Until you can do so, you cannot claim it's existence.
That is to say that consciousness without matter goes against what we know as tangible reality and is actually less plausible than leprechauns as they cannot rationally be denied because things that are not rationally impossible can never be denied potential existence.
So far the only form of physical evidence for the existence of conciousness without matter is the bible, a pile of monotonous, contradictory, bronze age bullshit.
Until physical evidence is produced to support the claim, you cannot claim it is true. It is only your belief, nothing more.
It may make you happy and I know it selfish to say, but I just couldn't see myself feeling the same way if I were living such a lie.
Creationists claim that reality does not exist by insinuating the existence of god (consciousness without matter) which goes against all we know of reality.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Cujllickduo



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Re: Proof of reality [Re: sudly]
#21826893 - 06/19/15 06:37 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Thats Brilliant You Wise 1
But 1 thing it was all written in a book from millions an millions years ago theres your proof
me personally i dont believe in such things he says but
that was his trip man so enjoy the bible bashers story's and move on man
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sprinkles
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Re: Proof of reality [Re: sudly]
#21826896 - 06/19/15 06:39 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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i like it
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Cujllickduo



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Re: Proof of reality [Re: sprinkles]
#21826903 - 06/19/15 06:44 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Thankyou Man
Not alot of things make such sense in this world of ours but we have to live with it
and when we go into a deep think and find the truth its amazing
but we dont now for sure its the truth we was not there in that time of life
the bible could be a movie back in those days LOL they did not have tv but had stories Who am i to say its this and that
Peace an love man
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sprinkles
otd president


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whether you believe in God or not the rules are simple... Do unto others as you'd have done to you. It doesnt matter if you believe in God, laws of the universe, or karma it's pretty much all the same to me no matter what name you choose to give it. They say you cant call God by any other name or it's a sin? How stupid. Jealousy is a human emotion, a God of pure knowledge and love is spiritually evolved well beyond the emotions of jealousy/envy nonsense.
Everyone should practice forgiveness. Im sure we appreciate it when we ask others to forgive us for our mistakes, we should extend that same courtesy to those who have done us wrong. I think the hardest thing is forgiving ourselves actually. Jesus forgives me before I do, Im pretty sure.
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meowshroom
EnergyPermeation

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Re: Proof of reality [Re: sudly]
#21827041 - 06/19/15 07:47 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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The one thing I understand about god, is that in this human form, I can never understand god. - me
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Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

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Re: Proof of reality [Re: sudly]
#21827934 - 06/19/15 12:13 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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There were philosophers at the beginning of the 20th century who considered "nonsense" to be the central term of philosophy. It was called a linguistic turn, but it was more like a hyperbole.
What do flying teapots have to do with the price of tea in China?
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RennHuhn
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Re: Proof of reality [Re: sudly] 1
#21829457 - 06/19/15 06:53 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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I agree, but assuming that we live in a simulation, there can exist an consciousness without "matter", in a simulation the basis of the simulated universe is information not matter therefore there can exist a matterless consciousness. But its debatable if this consciousness is then part of the simulation or outside of it.
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Feemer
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Re: Proof of reality [Re: RennHuhn]
#21843066 - 06/22/15 07:49 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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I know this is extremely long, but I would love your guyses thoughts on it and I think it's very applicable to this topic.
Assumptions and founding principles
0. We may and probably will never understand this fully, be positive of it's truth, or know that we aren't crazy.
1. Time isn't what we think. There is only the ever present now. Expanding on the definition of time, I prefer to view it as a room. In the middle of the room (the present), energy manifests itself. The past is simply what was manifested before, and the future is what could manifest (on the left and right respectively).
What is reality? I would define reality as experience. Experience of anything, makes it real. I can see and experience the sight of a tree. But reality isn't limited to the material, you can experience an idea, belief, emotion that can never be touched or verified by anyone but yourself, but it is still real and exists. Existence is a curious thing in itself. Something can exist, even if you are not aware of it; it becomes apart of your reality when you become aware of (experience) it. Let's go off on a related tangent. When you really think about existence and the universe, you might ask the question: why does anything exist at all? Doesn't it seem more likely that absolutely nothing, and i mean NOTHING should exist? (And there's the paradox, absolute nonexistence would exist, but more on that later) But, as far as we know, we do exist, lots of shit exists and forms reality. But why, if we assume we do indeed exist, should reality and existence only be in the form it is, with our laws of physics and what not? Doesn't it seem that, if it's more likely that nothing should exist, yet our universe does exist, that EVERYTHING should exist rather than nothing? Why such a narrow form of existence and reality? It could be that that's just the way it is, and this is the only form that can exist as governed by those pesky laws of physics. However that's a rather unsatisfactory answer, and leads you back to asking why do the laws of physics exist? And to go off on yet another tangent, do the laws of physics act on thoughts, or for a more specific definition, conciousness? Yes, if we assume conciousness is created by the odd collection of elements that form our bodies, which are acted on by those laws of physics. But how, going back to the earlier point, can something exist if you can't experience it? So if conciousness is indeed created by those odd set of elements that are subject to laws of physics, that is a paradox, because those things would need to be experienced by conciousness to even exist in the first place. However, this only remains a paradox only if we keep that same definition of conciousness. What is conciousness? What is experience? I would posit that conciousness and experience is simply an exchange of energy (which can manifest itself in any form). When I experience a tree, it is light energy that conveys to me there is a tree. When I touch something, neurons and synapses fire and signal that energy, forming my thoughts. So if conciousness and experience is simply the exchange of energy, one could make the claim that an atom of hydrogen is concious because it experiences energy transfer. But what is hydrogen made out of? An electron, proton, and neutron. What are those made out of? Quarks and empty space (physicists have calculated that 90% of the mast of a proton is empty space, which is given weight by particles that pop in and out of space, time, and different dimensions). But what are those made out of?! You see the infinite paradox. It seems that in light of this paradox and in general logic, that EVERYTHING has to, absolutely has to be made out of the same thing, the same source material or substance. What is this source material? Is it energy? Energy is what I'm going to call it. Even particles and mass is just energy. When you destroy mass, such as in a fission/fusion reaction, energy is conserved. Energy just is. It cannot be created or destroyed. Everywhere you look and everything you experience is not only made out of energy, but is experienced by the change/transfer of that energy. Your thoughts are energy. That tree, is energy. The air you breath is energy. So, if everything, and I do mean everything, is made out of the same source material (energy), then what is the difference between a tree and a thought? Your thoughts are just as real as the tree. The idea of elves and fairies and gods and ideologies are just as real as everything around you. But can we test that it is real, can we observe it? One could argue that by simply having and experiencing the thought, it exists and is real. So to attempt to coalesce my thoughts, I would say EVERYTHING exists, or has the potential to, simply because everything is made out of the same thing, energy, which is constantly changing and manifesting itself in new, different, and increasingly complex ways. Now, dinosaurs don't exist in the conventional use of the word. They did exist at one time however. But, as I stated in our assumptions, time is arbitrary, and is simply the change in energy in an ever present now. And I'll back that up by saying, again in conventional terms of time, the past doesn't exist anymore and the future doesn't exist yet, there is only now that exists. It's has never not been now. So under our new ideas of time and existence, everything exists simultaneously, or given enough time, everything will exist - but under our new understanding, that is the same thing as simultaneously existing. But elves and dinosaurs and fairies don't exist you say. And the laws of physics do. But as I said far far earlier, things don't exist in your reality until you become aware of (experience or perceive) them, but they still exist! And that's the punchline, if everything is made out of the same thing, then everything exists. But it is how you experience and perceive that source material (energy), that creates your reality. So I will ask, how many things exist that we just aren't aware of or cannot perceive? And perception will again form your view of reality. If a rabbit is preyed upon by a hawk, and two people observe it, they could form very different ideas and perceive the event very differently. And who's to say whom is correct? Is there an absolute truth and reality, that such and event can only be interpreted in one way that is ABSOLUTELY right? And following that, if there is an absolute truth and reality, would it be synonymous with the purpose of existence? But if everything is the same source material, energy, then is there a purpose? I posit that the purpose of existence and conciousness, which again is just energy, is that there is no purpose. I know, again with the parodoxes, but it's true. Is energy trying to do anything? Is there some final goal or form it is trying to achieve? And why didn't it just immediately manifest itself into that form, unless of course it was already in that form? So to try and articulate, we have already fulfilled the goal of existence/experience/conciousness because we exist and experience and are concious. So the "purpose" of it all, to me at least, is to simply experience and to be. But if there is no purpose, then why experience and exist? Well as I think I said in a rather convoluted way earlier, not existing and experiencing is, as it turns out, an experience, thus creating existence. Not existing and not experiencing is still a state of being. This is articulated well by the comments of a fellow psychonaut. we assume something is real because it has an outer edge, and thus can be experienced. But you can always take away the outer edge, until you have nothing, and I do mean NOTHING as in nothing exists. but when you have all of that absolute nothingness and non existence, the outer edge of that nothingness is nothingness. By giving it an outer edge to be experienced, thus it exists. Damn paradoxes.
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meowshroom
EnergyPermeation

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Re: Proof of reality [Re: Feemer]
#21843088 - 06/22/15 07:53 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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I want to read that... can you throw a few paragraphs in?
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Feemer
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I probably should, but I wrote it all at once and was kind of just typing out my thoughts as they occurred.
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Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

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Re: Proof of reality [Re: Feemer]
#21843347 - 06/22/15 08:41 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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You can edit your post, you know.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,805
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Re: Proof of reality [Re: Feemer]
#21844508 - 06/23/15 02:18 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Time is what we make it, as is weight and meaning. This is the result of our synchronicity.
Ideas, belief and emotions exist only in the mind as a bi product of the chemical processes within the brains neural network. You cannot see an emotion with your eyes You cannot smell a belief in the air. You cannot feel an idea with your hand. “Experience of anything makes it real”, your base argument is that reality is not only the physical. Reality is what is testable via any of our senses or technology. An experience is not tangible nor observable.
Things will exist whether or not you are aware of them, it does not become a part of your reality as it has always been a part of it, the only thing new is that you are now aware of it. We were not aware of black holes 200 years ago, this does not mean they popped into existence only when we became aware of them.
Why does anything exist at all? I don’t know, you don’t know. It seems most likely that a quantum state which we do not yet fully understand gave form to matter and the universe. My guess is the link between matter and anti-matter but again, that is only a guess because neither you nor I know.
Reality should be in the form it is because that’s the form reality is in. It is how it is because of the laws of nature/physics. “Why such a narrow form of existence?”. Reality is incredibly broad, just because the laws of nature give limits to what is possible does not mean it is a narrow form of existence.
“It could be that that’s just the way it is”, yep, and it is because of those ‘pesky’ laws of physics.
No one knows why the laws of physics exist, that doesn’t mean we have to apply the god of the gaps argument and apply God as the answer, which would be a major copout.
To answer if physics act on thought. The answer is no, they act only on the matter of the brain, not the thoughts it creates. Consciousness was created through evolution an natural selection, that much is obvious to anyone who understands evolution. The experience of the tree can be explained with physics. Consciousness is the human ability to detach from instinct and have introspective thought. It is not an exchanging of energy. Hydrogen is not conscious and I’m not going to attempt to explain that to you.
Nobody knows what the ‘source’ of the universe is, it may have an infinitely original source but again NO ONE KNOWS.
Trees, thought and air are all the result of the interactions between energy and matter, they themselves are not simply energy.
Thoughts are not as real as a tree, they are not tangible like a tree, they exist only in the brain of a human being as a result of chemical/neural processes. The idea of elves, fairies and magic exist in our minds. The idea itself is not tangible. We can test that these things are real/ not real by observing them, as we cannot in ANY form observe these phenomena we have no bases to claim they are real and therefore don’t.
One can argue anything, it doesn’t mean they’re right. Your saying that thought is real because it can be experienced, how about imagination? Why isn’t imagination real if it is also experienced as thought?
Many things have potential to exist if they do not break the laws of nature but it doesn’t automatically mean they do. Time is a manmade concept, as is meaning, they are both the result of synchronicity of happenstance. I’d recommend looking at the IPK and why 1kg is 1kg to better understand this. Again, things do exist in your reality whether or not you are aware of them. They do not spontaneously pop into existence when you become aware of them.
“If everything is made out of the same thing then everything exists”. Having a source does not mean possibility is infinite.
Experience doesn’t create reality, if it did, superman would be your next door neighbour.
There are plenty of things we are not aware of yet, such as deep sea fish species, planets with life and quantum states to name a few.
Perception may form a personal view of reality but it doesn’t change reality itself, on your perception which does not have a tangible, testable or observable effect. Whoever says the rabbit was preyed upon by the hawk would be correct because there is an absolute truth to reality. The absolute truth is that the rabbit was preyed upon by the hawk and who ever said that would be correct.
There is no observable purpose to existence of life, it is here because of nothing more than happenstance. The ‘purpose’ to experience is a manmade idea that comforts us with reality We experience and exist because we can, because we want to.
Not existing is not a state of being because it is not existing.. “The outer edge of that nothingness”. Nothingness does not have an edge because it is nothingness there is no paradox for experiencing the edge of nothingness to create existence.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Feemer
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Re: Proof of reality [Re: sudly]
#21844928 - 06/23/15 06:52 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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I disagree that reality is only physical. The concept of justice Isn't physical and can't be measured (objectively at least or by any measure we have), yet justice exists and is apart of our reality.
And you're right, black holes certainly existed before we knew about them. But they didn't exist in our idea or concept of reality before we became aware of them. So following that, let's pretend for a moment that existence is all or nothing, and assume the former, that everything exists. Everything could be existing right now, in whatever form, but we just aren't aware of it yet, leading to our "more narrow" concept of reality.
Non existence does not exist. Then that means the only alternative is existence of everything. Is non existence included in total existence? I'm not sure, but when I think about, let's say gravity, if everything exists, gravity will exist, but the absence of gravity, the opposite of gravity, etc must also exist, if everything is existing. We can't currently measure or observe that, but we couldn't observe or measure black holes 300 years ago, yet they still existed.
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circastes
Big Questions Small Head



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Re: Proof of reality [Re: Feemer] 2
#21845005 - 06/23/15 07:31 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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This is probably all pretty sound in light of logic and critical thinking, but what about experience? If you experience consciousness free from the body, for instance, or you come to notice in your visual field that inside yourself = outside yourself, that is, that the world itself is consciousness, shouldn't that count for something?
-------------------- My solitude... My shield... My armour... TESTED WITH FULL FORCE
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Feemer
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Re: Proof of reality [Re: Feemer]
#21845015 - 06/23/15 07:33 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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But I also wanted to talk more about if there is an ultimate reality. I'm gonna go off on a limb here, but bear with me. When I experienced ego death, that feels to me like ultimate reality. I would describe total ego death as the absolute transcendence of reality, matter, etc. It's pure existence, conciousness, nirvanna. What I'm really having a hard time with, especially as someone who majored in a field of science, is the connection between that "ultimate reality" and this reality. I can never measure it or prove it exists. I can only rely on my own experience. But that is true of this reality as well. The only thing I can absolutely be certain of, is that I am concious. How do I know if any of this is real? Sure I can observe, experience, measure, etc. But I'm doing all that with things I cannot ever absolutely confirm are real. So I may be absolutely crazy, but based off of my best reasoning and experiences, I tend to think that conciousness creates everything around us. But you are concious, they are concious, it's not just me creating this reality. I read something that articulated it well: in ego death, you experience that you are not separate and you are one with everything. But everything in our reality seems to be uniquely different from eachother. That oneness is infinity. But how can you have infinity without each individual within infinity, which of course there are an infinite amount of entities within infinity. Thoughts? Or ha e I gone mad?
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,805
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Re: Proof of reality [Re: Feemer]
#21846883 - 06/23/15 05:34 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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[REPLY RESPONSE 1] You can’t disagree that reality is only physical unless you are also disagreeing with the laws of physics. To do so would be silly and if you could prove it you should claim your nobel prize. Justice does not exist anywhere apart from our consciousness, it is not a part of tangible reality. So we didn’t know about black holes before we knew about them… I fail to see your point? Let’s not pretend things because hypotheticals in this case have no merit or use. Why would we assume everything exists? That makes no sense. Just because we don’t know all there is to know about reality, doesn’t mean it’s narrow. Just because nonexistence may not exist, does not by any standard or reason mean that everything exists. The opposite of gravity may exist, we don’t know yet which is why we are studying dark matter. Everything exists that does exist, if something doesn’t exist, it does NOT exist. You are stating hypotheticals with flawed logic.
[REPLY RESPONSE 2] The ‘ultimate’ reality is what reality is, nothing more or less. Ego death is a loss of subjective introspection, it allows for objective observations which is why it can be such a mesmerising experience. It is nothing like what you have stated, “pure existence, consciousness, nirvana”. Ultimate reality is just reality, there are some things we do not know yet but that doesn’t mean reality is wrong. We can be absolutely certain of mathematics and hence the laws of physics. If you think that consciousness creates everything around you then I have no choice but to assume you are at some level crazy. You do not create reality. The ‘oneness’ of ego death is the disconnection from subjectivity. The oneness is not infinity and that makes absolutely no sense to claim so. Obviously I don’t know you but from what I have read of your thoughts I believe you may be misinformed on several fronts. The universe is more amazing than nonfiction, black holes are a fine example. A tea spoon of neutronium material from a black hole would weigh as much as the earth. Whether or not we want to believe it is true, it is because that’s the reality we live in.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Feemer
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Re: Proof of reality [Re: sudly] 1
#21847377 - 06/23/15 07:40 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think this article will better explain what I'm talking about.
http://www.collective-evolution.com/2013/12/05/the-illusion-of-matter-our-physical-material-world-isnt-really-physical-at-all/
Have you ever heard of the quantum experiment where the outcome was changed just by observing it? It's mentioned in this article
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


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Re: Proof of reality [Re: Feemer]
#21847493 - 06/23/15 08:01 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Feemer said: Have you ever heard of the quantum experiment where the outcome was changed just by observing it? It's mentioned in this article
It is a gross oversimplification to say that, in Wheeler's "Delayed-Choice" experiment, for example, that we are changing Nature by observing Her. There is no general consensus yet on what experiments like this mean, and there are explanations on offer out there that do not involve spooky "you-create-the-universe-by-observing-it" mumbo-jumbo. So please dispense with that.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,805
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Re: Proof of reality [Re: Feemer]
#21847585 - 06/23/15 08:18 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yes I have heard of the experiment, that while being observed the particles took 2 different forms.
The electrons don't 'decide' to act differently, they only appear different based on how we observe them.
The author is using pontification on quantum mechanics and making baseless assertions such as vortexes within atoms.
We do not exist on a subatomic level alongside our atoms, if we did we'd be colliding with our own electrons and would destroy ourselves.
The double slit experiment only shows that we don't have a full understanding of quantum behaviors.
”We now know that trillions of dollars are going towards projects that the human race knows nothing about.” The article also contains a blatant oxymoron of knowing what we don't know. That alone is enough to remove a sense credibility.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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