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Anglerfish
hearing things
Registered: 09/08/10
Posts: 18,741
Loc: Norvegr
Last seen: 2 hours, 1 minute
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Re: Deconica sp. or perhaps early Psilocybe semilanceata? [Re: woaronun]
#21809262 - 06/15/15 04:46 AM (8 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
woaronun said: That's exciting, looking forward to hearing about the results
Yeah, me too, although I have some doubts as to the identity - meaning I suspect it to be P. semilanceata. Trouble here is that the microscopic features are so similar between those two species, so we really need specimens with features like obvious permanent ring zone, more abundant veil remnants on the cap margin and also dung as substrate. So I'll keep looking with very keen eyes, while we await DNA.
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psylosymonreturns
aka Gym Sporrison
Registered: 10/16/09
Posts: 13,948
Loc: Mos Eisley,
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
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Re: Deconica sp. or perhaps early Psilocybe semilanceata? [Re: Anglerfish]
#21812931 - 06/15/15 11:07 PM (8 years, 9 months ago) |
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Holy shit!!!!
Anglerfish you are fucking awesome buddy!!! I can't believe one of us finally found the bloody thing!
I found ringers in dung last year but I never did anything about it. I figured they were stuntzii since they were abundant in the field as well but they were in dung. I may try to see if I kept any.
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Anglerfish
hearing things
Registered: 09/08/10
Posts: 18,741
Loc: Norvegr
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Re: Deconica sp. or perhaps early Psilocybe semilanceata? [Re: psylosymonreturns]
#21813294 - 06/16/15 02:09 AM (8 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
psylosymonreturns said: Holy shit!!!!
Anglerfish you are fucking awesome buddy!!! I can't believe one of us finally found the bloody thing!
I found ringers in dung last year but I never did anything about it. I figured they were stuntzii since they were abundant in the field as well but they were in dung. I may try to see if I kept any.
Thanks, but please hold your horses yet a little bit - final verdict is not up yet. Sequencing remains, who knows what that will tell us?
Remembering there have been previous finds where macroscopic features seemed to rhyme better with P. fimetaria than my find here, but even when the sequence was presented no one could tell (or could they?):
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/20822775/fpart/4/vc/1#20822775
Alan, what was the verdict on jobong's supposed fimetaria-hispanica find? When I blast this I get a 99% identity score with P. pelliculosa and what... P. fasciata?? I'm probably not doing this right.
Ignore the rubble above, I think I got the hang of it. Jobong's find matching P. fimetaria 100%.
If that is correct, we've got something of a guiding star.
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Edited by Anglerfish (06/16/15 02:21 AM)
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist
Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,358
Last seen: 7 days, 1 hour
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Re: Deconica sp. or perhaps early Psilocybe semilanceata? [Re: Anglerfish]
#21813304 - 06/16/15 02:20 AM (8 years, 9 months ago) |
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No verdict on that find yet, I need to scope it more carefully.
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Anglerfish
hearing things
Registered: 09/08/10
Posts: 18,741
Loc: Norvegr
Last seen: 2 hours, 1 minute
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Re: Deconica sp. or perhaps early Psilocybe semilanceata? [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
#21813315 - 06/16/15 02:27 AM (8 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said: No verdict on that find yet, I need to scope it more carefully.
Ah okay. But when I blast the sequence you provided, and type "Psilocybe fimetaria (taxid:181763)" in the "organism" slot, I end up with this:
It says "Ident: 100%". I'm not exactly sure how I should read this?
When using this page, am I not supposed to paste the sequence provided into the larger slot on top, where it says "Enter accession number(s), gi(s), or FASTA sequence(s) "? Now, doing this without choosing anything in the "organism" slot, it apparently gives P. pelliculosa as closest match. Putting P. fimetaria in that slot, it gives a 100% as shown in the screen shot.
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist
Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,358
Last seen: 7 days, 1 hour
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Re: Deconica sp. or perhaps early Psilocybe semilanceata? [Re: Anglerfish]
#21813910 - 06/16/15 09:36 AM (8 years, 9 months ago) |
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The sequence I provided is ITS, not LSU. ITS is a region next to LSU, and there is some overlap - but only 6%. However the 6% that does overlap matches 100%.
If I see the Jobong collection in the next few days I will make a LSU sequence of it so more than 6% can be compared.
BLAST does not score that 6% overlap very highly because it is such a small amount of base pairs. The P. pelliculosa ITS sequence has a lot more matches, so it is scored much more highly. It also has a lot more differences.
LSU is a much more conserved region than ITS, so it doesn't have much resolution at the species level. Most closely related species will have the same sequence, or sequences that are just a couple base pairs different.
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knarkkorven
Entheoholic
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 1,709
Loc: Sweden
Last seen: 2 days, 23 hours
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Re: Deconica sp. or perhaps early Psilocybe semilanceata? [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
#21814980 - 06/16/15 02:54 PM (8 years, 9 months ago) |
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First look: Amazing! Clearly something special! Look at how it bruises where the stipe is broken. And it grows from old dung.
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Psilocybe fimetaria (add Chinese gong sound).
Adding to my excitement is the fact that this is the first officially registered find of this species in Norway!
Ahh, Psilocybe fimetaria. Nice!! Congratulations!
Quote:
Naturally, I'm then also curious as to whether these are all what I perceive them to be.
I have no doubt about those being P. semilanceata.
The last couple of years, I found some wierd psilocybes in a sheep pasture together with P. semilanceata. My guess was mutated libs or perhaps fimetaria. They aren't really a perfect match to yours however...
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist
Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,358
Last seen: 7 days, 1 hour
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Re: Deconica sp. or perhaps early Psilocybe semilanceata? [Re: knarkkorven]
#21817707 - 06/17/15 04:10 AM (8 years, 9 months ago) |
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knarkkorven said: The last couple of years, I found some wierd psilocybes in a sheep pasture together with P. semilanceata. My guess was mutated libs or perhaps fimetaria. They aren't really a perfect match to yours however...
That is probably liniformans or something.
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Anglerfish
hearing things
Registered: 09/08/10
Posts: 18,741
Loc: Norvegr
Last seen: 2 hours, 1 minute
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Re: Deconica sp. or perhaps early Psilocybe semilanceata? [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
#21817743 - 06/17/15 04:41 AM (8 years, 9 months ago) |
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knarkkorven said: Ahh, Psilocybe fimetaria. Nice!! Congratulations!
It is not conclusive until sequenced. I have a feeling they might just be P. semilanceata after all.
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The last couple of years, I found some wierd psilocybes in a sheep pasture together with P. semilanceata. My guess was mutated libs or perhaps fimetaria. They aren't really a perfect match to yours however...
I find very similar looking ones growing among the semilanceata I find in sheep pastures.
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Alan Rockefeller said: That is probably liniformans or something.
I think that is a good suggestion. I'll keep my eyes open and get samples if I find them.
Speaking of P. fimetaria, this old find comes to mind:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6107611
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knarkkorven
Entheoholic
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 1,709
Loc: Sweden
Last seen: 2 days, 23 hours
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Re: Deconica sp. or perhaps early Psilocybe semilanceata? [Re: Anglerfish]
#21819146 - 06/17/15 01:42 PM (8 years, 9 months ago) |
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That is probably liniformans or something.
Interesting... I wonder if I saved them and still have them separated. Got to search my collections for them some day.
Quote:
Speaking of P. fimetaria, this old find comes to mind
Yeah. I was looking for that thread The person who found those lived just outside Gothenburg and found them close to the coast on a pasture right below some high voltage power lines. Together with lots of libs of course, even some steriles which I didn't know existed at the time. I convinced him to mail a mushroom to Workman, and the rest is history. One of the very few confirmed P. fimetaria from Sweden.
I really believe you got something there and it's not libs.
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Anglerfish
hearing things
Registered: 09/08/10
Posts: 18,741
Loc: Norvegr
Last seen: 2 hours, 1 minute
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Re: Deconica sp. or perhaps early Psilocybe semilanceata? [Re: knarkkorven]
#21819409 - 06/17/15 03:10 PM (8 years, 9 months ago) |
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knarkkorven said: I really believe you got something there and it's not libs.
Well, thanks for your enthusiastic comment!
If you read the full descriptions of the two species, you realise that with only going by microscopy of two specimens as in this case, lacking a few prerequisite macroscopic habits (veil remnants on cap margin, more veil remnants or annulus on stipe, horse dung) of P. fimetaria, there is room for some doubt.
But yes, I do believe they look a bit odd to be P. semilanceata in any case. Who knows what the DNA tells us.
Quote:
knarkkorven said: The person who found those lived just outside Gothenburg and found them close to the coast on a pasture right below some high voltage power lines. Together with lots of libs of course, even some steriles which I didn't know existed at the time. I convinced him to mail a mushroom to Workman, and the rest is history. One of the very few confirmed P. fimetaria from Sweden.
It was actually completely idenitified? I got the impression that it ended at Psilocybe sp.
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Joust
Mycotographer
Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 13,392
Loc: WA
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Re: Deconica sp. or perhaps early Psilocybe semilanceata? [Re: Anglerfish]
#21819546 - 06/17/15 03:52 PM (8 years, 9 months ago) |
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Byrain said: I don't know the specific details here, but Stamets' book is full of mistakes, you should read it with a grain of salt.
I dont know about it being fimetaria, what did the cystidia look like. Im still trying to figure out what my guys are...
http://mushroomobserver.org/199723?q=2ad82
Are there any micro details or micrographs...
It seems like these are just libs to me... I will know this fall when i get my hands on lots of specimens and sequence the NA ones. Ive also got lots of tips for this fall and a few old mycologists to show me around where they showed Guzman when he described all these things...
Finally some people who were alive back then and can say something, Hoping to do some major investigating this fall,, i hope.
-------------------- ~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~ _________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________ "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen "Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira
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Anglerfish
hearing things
Registered: 09/08/10
Posts: 18,741
Loc: Norvegr
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Re: Deconica sp. or perhaps early Psilocybe semilanceata? [Re: Joust]
#21819594 - 06/17/15 04:10 PM (8 years, 9 months ago) |
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Joust said: I dont know about it being fimetaria, what did the cystidia look like.
Are there any micro details or micrographs...
I have no data or micrographs myself. I shipped these two off to a professional mycologist who saw the pictures and wanted to scope them to check. He thought the summer season along with the decomposed manure substrate might indicate something other than P. semilanceata, the two main suspects being P. fimetaria and P. liniformans.
These were found 5 days prior to my semilanceata find.
So - the first response I get is "P. fimetaria" then on telling him and showing pictures of semis he suddenly doubted. As mentioned if you read the two microscopic descriptions you realise the margins are small between the two species.
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It seems like these are just libs to me...
What I thought initially, and what the conservative part of me still thinks. Yet it is not necessarily sure that they are the same species just because they both favor manured soil in a pasture. I think uncertainty and interest from seasoned personnel should be followed up. I mean, you never know - if I say "blah!" and leave it, who knows what I might throw away?
Until the DNA is ready, that is.
I should probably ingest some and ask the question what they are, I might get the answer.
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Anglerfish
hearing things
Registered: 09/08/10
Posts: 18,741
Loc: Norvegr
Last seen: 2 hours, 1 minute
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Re: Deconica sp. or perhaps early Psilocybe semilanceata? [Re: Anglerfish]
#21819964 - 06/17/15 05:49 PM (8 years, 9 months ago) |
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I also forgot I have some pictures of the caps in semi-dry state:
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Joust
Mycotographer
Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 13,392
Loc: WA
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Re: Deconica sp. or perhaps early Psilocybe semilanceata? [Re: Anglerfish]
#21821133 - 06/17/15 10:08 PM (8 years, 9 months ago) |
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I love all work! I agree, run everything! Each collection is unique and worth studying!
Keep on at it!
-------------------- ~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~ _________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________ "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen "Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira
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knarkkorven
Entheoholic
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 1,709
Loc: Sweden
Last seen: 2 days, 23 hours
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Re: Deconica sp. or perhaps early Psilocybe semilanceata? [Re: Joust]
#21822988 - 06/18/15 10:09 AM (8 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
It was actually completely idenitified? I got the impression that it ended at Psilocybe sp.
Yeah. That's correct. It was actually a long process, at first it looked like semilanceata, then it was a new species, and after more work
Quote:
I think your specimen is likely Psilocybe subfimetaria aka P. sierrae.
...
Sorry, I meant Psilocybe fimetaria. Best I can do until I can cultivate one. It is not a perfect match but pretty good.
So, well.. not 100% confirmed. Always room for speculations.
Perhaps we have something undocumented up here after all... Yours look pretty similar to the Gothenburg mushrooms. Or perhaps it's just a mutated semilanceata, but bluing so high up on the stipe is very unusual, and at the same time growing on dung... that's what I regard as promising.
There are some different species being named fimetaria, check out:
germany: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15126655/fpart/1/vc/1
this was found in UK 2011: http://i56.tinypic.com/2gv2b8h.jpg
pnw: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=Forum3&Number=3487396 http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=Forum3&Number=3487396
also see: http://www.asturnatura.com/fotografia/setas-hongos/psilocybe-fimetaria-p-d-orton-watling-1/5978.html
and here's a photo I saved from a forum some years ago but don't remember anything more about it other than it was taken in Sweden and I found the shapes interesting.
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Anglerfish
hearing things
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Re: Deconica sp. or perhaps early Psilocybe semilanceata? [Re: knarkkorven]
#21824239 - 06/18/15 03:55 PM (8 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
knarkkorven said:
Quote:
It was actually completely idenitified? I got the impression that it ended at Psilocybe sp.
Yeah. That's correct. It was actually a long process, at first it looked like semilanceata, then it was a new species, and after more work
Quote:
I think your specimen is likely Psilocybe subfimetaria aka P. sierrae.
...
Sorry, I meant Psilocybe fimetaria. Best I can do until I can cultivate one. It is not a perfect match but pretty good.
So, well.. not 100% confirmed. Always room for speculations.
Well, what we have are basically two described species with certain overlapping characteristics, the seemingly most significant ones being macroscopic, without considering DNA sequencing. But then there are also certain deviaton from the norm in both species. For instance: P. fimetaria might sometimes lack an annulus. P. semilanceata might sometimes almost have a complete annulus.
The following picture is a P. semilanceata I found on Tuesday this week:
The next picture are dried specimens of P. fimetaria found in Oregon in 1968:
You know what dried P. semilanceata looks like. What would you call these two mushrooms?
Can you point out obvious differences?
I'm not trying to say any of these are not what they're supposed to be, but merely trying to point out the obvious difficulties separating the species.
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Perhaps we have something undocumented up here after all... Yours look pretty similar to the Gothenburg mushrooms. Or perhaps it's just a mutated semilanceata, but bluing so high up on the stipe is very unusual, and at the same time growing on dung... that's what I regard as promising.
Be aware that this was heavily composted dung - e.g. becoming like soil. As for bluing on the stipe, I find this to occur quite frequently in (what I regard as being) P. semilanceata. I have pictures but need to search a bit to find them.
Other than that, this quote from Guzman in "The Genus Psilocybe" is kind of interesting as well:
DISCUSSION. P. fimetaria is very close to P. semilanceata (Fr. ex Secr.) Kumm. and to P. callosa (Fr. ex Fr.) Que!. from which it differs in the annulus and non-papillate pileus with the first case, and in the size of the spores in the second case, in addition to the coprophilous habitat. It is possible to find intermediate forms between these species which are difficult to understand, at least in herbarium collections. All the "P. semilanceata" found in herbarium with non papillate pileus, coprophilous or subcoprophilous habitat, and annulus or subannulus are considered here as P. fimetaria.
Looking at the last link you posted though, I'm thinking perhaps they could look a bit like P. liniformans:
http://mycologie.catalogne.free.fr/ImagesPhoto2009-1/Psilocybe_liniformans_1.jpg
I'll obviously have to try to understand the DNA sequencing process a bit better, then we'll have to try to make a collective effort trying to gather specimens and get them through the whole mill to see what results we get.
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